Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

[emu steve]

Dave Curtis, managing partner, said the downtown Detroit location, which opened late last year, ranked in the top 25 in sales among all Buffalo Wild Wings locations nationwide as the Tigers played the Oakland Athletics last week.

This week, the company is calling on its entire 110-person staff to handle crowds watching 95 TVs spread among three floors.

“Those games are bringing in a large crowd,” Curtis said.

“We’re going to be completely staffed to accommodate it.”

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2hyH0WO3i

[Eber Brock Ward]

steve, they certainly do.

but the question doubters have posed is: does that increased vitality offset the amount spent on subsidies for stadia, including infrastructure upgrades.

seems the dominant answer is "probably not"

[iheartthed]

steve, they certainly do.

but the question doubters have posed is: does that increased vitality offset the amount spent on subsidies for stadia, including infrastructure upgrades.

seems the dominant answer is "probably not"

Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

[Gistok]

Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

[ghettopalmetto]

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

Maybe Wall Street needs a hockey arena, then. Stupid New Yorkers!

[iheartthed]

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

Wall St is relatively dead after 6pm. That's relative to Midtown Manhattan, which is the largest business district in New York. The Wall Street area still supports a ton of restaurants, bars, convenience stores, gyms and even a couple of grocery stores.

[poobert]

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

I know it's not the point but I was literally on Wall Street last week in the evening. I can assure you there was no shortage of people.

Where do you people come up with some of this shit? Have you even been to nyc? Outside of Michigan?

[Wesley Mouch]

Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

One cannot will a 'Central Business District' into being. Thus, luring sports teams creates some economic activity -- and spinoff.

The restaurants downtown live and die on the Wings and Tigers. [[Not so much on the Lions.)

I think sports subsidies are obscene. But when you're down and out as Detroit WAS, they do seem to work. Does anyone think sports and entertainment downtown isn't a net positive? I think there's absolutely no doubt that its made a lot of what's happened recently possible.

For this, you should all bow down to Mike Ilitch who started it rolling with the Fox, and kiss the ground he walks on.

[DetroitPlanner]

The Tigers, Wings, and Lions are icing on the cake. You cannot open up a major eatery based upon them alone. You will lose you shirt should one move.

Of course billioniares are going to try to sell the municipality the economic development aspect of the development. They want to be able to tap them for much of the cost, keeping them billionaires. Truth be told yes there are some places benefitting from the stadium, but the way they are built are much like casinos; surrounded by moats of parking and trying their best to keep as many of the dollars spent that day inside the stadium. It is for this reason that Eber Brock Ward [[Detroit's first mr. moneybags) is correct.

[rb336]

The Tigers, Wings, and Lions are icing on the cake. You cannot open up a major eatery based upon them alone. You will lose you shirt should one move.

Of course billioniares are going to try to sell the municipality the economic development aspect of the development. They want to be able to tap them for much of the cost, keeping them billionaires. Truth be told yes there are some places benefitting from the stadium, but the way they are built are much like casinos; surrounded by moats of parking and trying their best to keep as many of the dollars spent that day inside the stadium. It is for this reason that Eber Brock Ward [[Detroit's first mr. moneybags) is correct.

In the case of the stadiums, once the new hockey arena is in place there will be games in that area year round. Throw in concerts, the proximity to other entertainment venues like the music box, opera house, orchestra hall, etc., then throw in the higher office occupancy and it certainly creates the critical mass for successful businesses. higher density of people creates a safer feeling and a more lively feeling. In this setting, it contributes to the growth rather than attempting to act as a catalyst, which has been shown to be unsuccessful

[DetroitPlanner]

In the case of the stadiums, once the new hockey arena is in place there will be games in that area year round. Throw in concerts, the proximity to other entertainment venues like the music box, opera house, orchestra hall, etc., then throw in the higher office occupancy and it certainly creates the critical mass for successful businesses. higher density of people creates a safer feeling and a more lively feeling. In this setting, it contributes to the growth rather than attempting to act as a catalyst, which has been shown to be unsuccessful

So what? Everything is tilted to the owners advantage. More money is spent inside the stadium or in parking controlled by the stadium than is spent outside of it. By investing public dollars into this, the return is still very small for anyone but the owner. The owners have cities over a barrel because they have folks bidding for them to come to town. They use this as a bargaining chip to increase their own profits. Do you have any idea how much the City and County have invested in Ford Field, Comerica, or Joe Louis as opposed to the owners? What sort of direct revenue do they make off of the facility as opposed to what they have put into it? As I have stated these things are designed like casinos, to keep as many dollars from leaking to other parts of the City as possible. The majority of the money generated stays with the Stadium, so as far as it being a good investment, its a great one if you are a billionaire who can get a municipality to build much of it for you. If you are Buffalo Wild Wings you are getting scraps. Yes it is still good for business, but it should not be why you open your business as if it leaves [[and teams are very mobile these days chasing stadium dollars) your business is closed, with no guarantee of you being able to recoup your investment.

[iheartthed]

The Tigers, Wings, and Lions are icing on the cake. You cannot open up a major eatery based upon them alone. You will lose you shirt should one move.

And what happens when your team isn't doing so great? If the Tigers weren't playing in October then what would the revenue at BW3 look like?

[bailey]

And what happens when your team isn't doing so great? If the Tigers weren't playing in October then what would the revenue at BW3 look like?
Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

[iheartthed]

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

And if Troy and Southfield were in Detroit? Yeah, BW3 would still be there...

[bailey]

And if Troy and Southfield were in Detroit? Yeah, BW3 would still be there...

However, Troy and Southfield exist and we can't fix that unless there is a draw. Ford field and Copa exist now and that has had a huge effect on what people see and think about Detroit. . Detroit needs to be the "center" of stuff. Rightly or wrongly, today, the "center" focuses more on sports and bars and nightlife because very few of the bean counter or those with controlling interest at XYZ Industries, Inc gives a tinker's damn about anything other than which city/county is going to give it the best deal.

It is not a public private partnership. It is called extortion. If it was a true partnership then the City would be getting a direct benefit. Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

I agree the formula is way, way out of wack.

I disagree that there isn't a significant economic multiplier effect that goes beyond just the waiters.

I mean, look around the immediate neighborhood... compare the DAC of the late 90s to the DAC of today. Compare the Gem or the tons of other venues that are getting a second wind around downtown like the Colony Club or places like Cliff Bells. Would the Broderick be renovated? etc.

[motz]

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

Red Wings and many other sporting events my friends. Midtown's sports option are alright [[Lefty's, Circa, 3rd St, Starters) but downtown is where to truly GOOD sports bars are, whether it be BW3, Bookie's, any number of places. Corktown has McShane's, which is good. But BW3 would be buzzing regardless of if the Tiger's were in the playoffs. It is a quality sports bar.

[downtownguy]

But BW3 would be buzzing regardless of if the Tiger's were in the playoffs. It is a quality sports bar.

Nemo's is a good sports bar. The Lindell AC was a great sports bar. BW3 is a franchise restaurant.

[Hamtragedy]

8 football games.
81-90 baseball games
41 hockey games

130 days of sporting events

235 days a year stadia go unused, unless for monster truck rallies, Kid rock, or ice capades.

[motz]

8 football games.
81-90 baseball games
41 hockey games

130 days of sporting events

235 days a year stadia go unused, unless for monster truck rallies, Kid rock, or ice capades.

The only stadium that suffers from true inactivity is Comerica, and that is because no roof. Beyond that, every other sports venue can host events year round. Its just a matter of drumming up support to get these events here. Also punching whoever owns that Plymouth Arena that keeps booking shows that should be elsewhere.

[DetroitPlanner]

The only stadium that suffers from true inactivity is Comerica, and that is because no roof. Beyond that, every other sports venue can host events year round. Its just a matter of drumming up support to get these events here. Also punching whoever owns that Plymouth Arena that keeps booking shows that should be elsewhere.

That would be Pate Karmanos. You can find him at lunchtime eating at his favorite spot in Downtown Brightmoor [[Scotty Simpson's). Better watch out though Brightmoor has Pete's back.

[downtownguy]

Originally Posted by motz
The only stadium that suffers from true inactivity is Comerica, and that is because no roof. Beyond that, every other sports venue can host events year round. Its just a matter of drumming up support to get these events here. Also punching whoever owns that Plymouth Arena that keeps booking shows that should be elsewhere.

That would be Pate Karmanos. You can find him at lunchtime eating at his favorite spot in Downtown Brightmoor [[Scotty Simpson's). Better watch out though Brightmoor has Pete's back.

Ilitch inherited the sweetheart lease on the Joe when he bought the Red Wings. He was also given the booking rights for it and Cobo Arena. But with rent of only $25,000 a month on the Joe, Ilitch preferred to keep it all to himself, denying businesses and worker bees that stood to gain on spin-off of arena business their share. Karmanos wanted to make the Joe home ice for his Junior Wings franchise, but Ilitch wouldn't lease to him so he built his own arena in Plymouth. Mike Iltich... always looking out for Detroit and Detroiters.

[bailey]

8 football games. [64k a game, 500k a year in attendance]
81-90 baseball games [2013 regular season attendance of 3, 083,000 with 2.5-3+ million a year since 2006 and about 35k a game]
41 hockey games [20k a game and 500k a year]

130 days of sporting events [that wouldn't be happening there if not for the stadia.]

235 days a year stadia go unused, unless for monster truck rallies, Kid rock, or ice capades. [however, when they are used for them, that's another 20-50k people downtown spending money on a night they wouldn't be].

Added some missing context.

I think there is a valid point that the funding formula is too heavily tilted towards subsidizing billionaires....however, that doesn't mean these should not be a public private partnership or that they bring nothing to the City.

[DetroitPlanner]

Added some missing context.

I think there is a valid point that the funding formula is too heavily tilted towards subsidizing billionaires....however, that doesn't mean these should not be a public private partnership or that they bring nothing to the City.

It is not a public private partnership. It is called extortion. If it was a true partnership then the City would be getting a direct benefit. Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

[Detroitnerd]

As if on cue, while subsidies for our pizza baron are up for debate, the "business reporters" for the News come up with anecdotal evidence supporting said subsidies. Surprise, surprise...

[downtownguy]

Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

Waiters pay taxes?