What if Detroit were part of Canada?

[douglasm]

Detroitnerd brings up an interesting point about industrial development. Assuming a 1920's Canadian Detroit, the auto industry would not have developed as it did, but would probably look like Windsor's post WW I. Until 1964, automobiles could not be moved freely across the border, and with Canada being a much smaller market than the United States, the need for a large Canadian production base would not be there.

[DetroitPlanner]

There would have been no purple gang.

[canuck]

There would have been no purple gang.

It would have been a vermilion one with a pink froo-froo on top. Very ghey, toadally unviolent, and unviolet, as you say.

[iheartthed]

But those figures can be deceiving too. When you consider that London was the largest city in the world in 1840, at more than 2 million, and Manhattan and Brooklyn combined had just 350,000. In 1840, the 10th largest U.S. city, Charleston, S.C., had a population of about 30,000. At that time, fewer than 13 percent of the U.S. population of 17 million lived in cities with populations greater than 8,000.

Of course, I know you're shooting for context, which is more than fair. That said, the lay person of today might well be confused to see the "big city" of Charleston, S.C. in 1840.

Yeah, it's all about relative terms... However, mega cities as we know them today were extremely rare before 1900. There were probably not more than five cities in the world to have a population of more than 1 million in 1850. By 1950, the US alone had five cities with populations of more than 1 million [[as we know, one of them was Detroit).

[Gistok]

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Lawrence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.

[Gistok]

... oh... and there's another problem... if the tri-county area were part of Canada... then not only would Henry Ford not have been in Detroit... but Thomas Edison wouldn't have been able to work on the train from Mt. Clemens to Port Huron... thinking about electricity and phonographs... and if he weren't here we'd all be in the dark today... cuz there'd be no electricity!!

I don't like this alternative universe... we'd be living in Canada, and be like the Amish today!!

[canuck]

[QUOTE=Gistok;405155]Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Laurence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.[/QUOTE

Yup. Bingo.

[canuck]

... oh... and there's another problem... if the tri-county area were part of Canada... then not only would Henry Ford not have been in Detroit... but Thomas Edison wouldn't have been able to work on the train from Mt. Clemens to Port Huron... thinking about electricity and phonographs... and if he weren't here we'd all be in the dark today... cuz there'd be no electricity!!

I don't like this alternative universe... we'd be living in Canada, and be like the Amish today!!

Amen. I'll send my horse and buggy to pick youse up.

[Gistok]

lol... canuck... I think I brought the "Slippery Slope" argument fallacy to a whole new level...

[canuck]

lol... canuck... I think I brought the "Slippery Slope" argument fallacy to a whole new level...

lol, The only thing to worry about now is if the Amish Mafia stirs things up!

[Danny]

How about a better ideal. Let's have Michigan to join Canada.

[iheartthed]

Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Lawrence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.

Erie Canal. The major factor contributing to NYC becoming the nation's largest city also directed nearly all of the shipping to the interior US through Detroit.

ETA: I suppose you could argue that building the Erie Canal would've been less attractive if the Detroit River were completely under British control. In that case, Detroit may not have been that big or important, but neither would any of the other major Great Lakes cities. And Philadelphia would probably be the country's largest city right now. The Great Lakes manufacturing prominence over the 20th century would've probably shifted to the river cities: New Orleans, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh. I'll give that to whoever wants to make that argument...

ETA2: But Detroit would've still likely been a large settlement in Canada and probably the largest in Ontario by the turn of the 20th century, so it would've also still benefited from the English/French Canadian conflicts.

[Hermod]

And Michigan's industrial heritage doesn't really get going full-bore when the Erie Canal opens in the 1830s, does it? It grew slowly, and was stalled by the Civil War. Now, after the Civil War was over, and the United States could pursue industrialism in earnest, there was a "Michigan Fever" that brought a flood of immigrants across the lakes to get jobs clearcutting Michigan's forests. After the state was all cut over around 1900, many of those workers' descendants wound up migrating down to Detroit to work in the factories. I think that the surplus labor Michigan had at the time the auto boom took off doesn't get the consideration it should.

It wasn't the "surplus labor" that built Detroit, it was the "surplus capital" from the clear-cutting lumber boom. The lumber barons that were based in Michigan provided seed money to both the fledgeling automotive industry AND the fledgeling interurban industry. As well as being the nexus of the infant auto industry, Detroit [[and Michigan) also had one of the most pervasive interurban systems [[and several city streetcar systems in places like Pontiac, Flint, and Port Huron). The capitalists that bet on the gas powered buggies won and the ones that bet on the electric rail car lost.

[Gistok]

Just an FYI on the Erie and Welland Canals... the maximum boat size for the Great Lakes shipping from the Erie Canal was 327 ft long and 45 ft wide. The maximum boat lenght for Great Lakes shipping from the Welland Canal was 765 ft long and 80 ft wide.

Ironically the biggest hurdle for both canals was the Niagara Escarpment, which in the case of the Welland Canal... the Lake Erie end of the canal is 326.5 ft higher than the Lake Ontario end. Interestingly enough this is by far the greatest elevation change among the Great Lakes... the difference between Erie and Huron/Michigan is only 6 ft. And the difference between Huron/Michigan and Superior is only 23 ft.

[Hermod]

Port Huron grew around Fort Gratiot. Given British/Canuckistani control of Michigan [[at least the lower peninsula), Fort Gratiot would not have been a major lake post. Fort Wayne would never have been built.

[Embee]

It would look just like the rest of Ontario... mostly rural, very white, and relatively sparsely populated.

None of those statements are true. Ontario is highly urbanized, it is less white than Michigan [[75% compared to Michigan at 79%) and it has 13 million people compared to Michigan's 10 million.

[Mikeg]

It wasn't the "surplus labor" that built Detroit, it was the "surplus capital" from the clear-cutting lumber boom. The lumber barons that were based in Michigan provided seed money to both the fledgeling automotive industry AND the fledgeling interurban industry. As well as being the nexus of the infant auto industry, Detroit [[and Michigan) also had one of the most pervasive interurban systems [[and several city streetcar systems in places like Pontiac, Flint, and Port Huron). The capitalists that bet on the gas powered buggies won and the ones that bet on the electric rail car lost.

Bingo!

Within the USA, labor is mobile, as is capital [[however since 2008, labor, not so much). According to Robert Conot in "American Odyssey", much of the capital that fueled Detroit's rise as an industrial powerhouse came from Boston and other East Coast financiers. If Detroit had been part of Canada, their entrepreneurs would have had a harder time acquiring the necessary capital flows they needed to grow their businesses.

[Detroitnerd]

It wasn't the "surplus labor" that built Detroit, it was the "surplus capital" from the clear-cutting lumber boom. The lumber barons that were based in Michigan provided seed money to both the fledgeling automotive industry AND the fledgeling interurban industry. As well as being the nexus of the infant auto industry, Detroit [[and Michigan) also had one of the most pervasive interurban systems [[and several city streetcar systems in places like Pontiac, Flint, and Port Huron). The capitalists that bet on the gas powered buggies won and the ones that bet on the electric rail car lost.

You go too far, Hermod. What could be a nice discussion about the capital and labor Michigan possessed at the time is another instance for you to start twisting words into my mouth.

I didn't say that the surplus labor built Detroit's auto industry.

I said not many people realize the role of that surplus labor in Detroit's auto boom.

And when you bet on a mode of transportation that the government is determined to subsidize with billions of dollars of investment in infrastructure, what kind of gamble is that? I'd call that a sure thing.

[coracle]

I thought a thread "What if Detroit was Part of Canada" was stupid [[whoever started it); but I've changed my mind because if it were, Hamtramck would be in the middle of Detroit and D'nerd would be in the middle of Hamtramck [[if he's moved there) and we wouldn't get his crap about what he thought about Michigan, racism and himself.

[Detroitnerd]

Awwww ... somebody's feelings hurt?

[canuck]

Doesnt the name Hamtramck sound nice?

[bailey]

None of those statements are true. Ontario is highly urbanized, it is less white than Michigan [[75% compared to Michigan at 79%) and it has 13 million people compared to Michigan's 10 million.

I didn't say there were no cities in Ontario and I did say "relatively". But c'mon "highly urbanized"? Ontario is twice the size of Texas and has half the population. Half of Ontario's population is in two MSAs... Toronto and Ottawa... the largest city in Canada and the Nation's capitol. I mean, yes there ARE areas of high density urban.... surrounded by mostly sparsely populated, very homogenous, rural areas. Which is what most of Michigan would likely look like if the Detroit MSA stayed in Canada after 1812.

also, regarding the non-white population... I was referring more to the black demographic that would not have moved north en masse in the early part of the 20th century.

[Embee]

What I meant by "highly urbanized" is that a very high proportion of our population lives in dense urban areas. Even Windsor is more dense than pretty much any city in Michigan. Everything just seems mush more spread out in the U.S. It was just a misunderstanding - I think you were talking more about Ontario's overall low population density [[which is true).

[Hermod]

And when you bet on a mode of transportation that the government is determined to subsidize with billions of dollars of investment in infrastructure, what kind of gamble is that? I'd call that a sure thing.

Chcken and the egg. The populace bought their autos and wanted decent road for them. The politicians bowed to the urgent demands of the taxpayers.

In the case of of the electric rail lines, the politicians did everything they could to hinder and harass them [[led by your idol, Hazen Pingree) and felt that they were a cash cow that needed to be milked frequently and often.

People with cars needed to be catered to or else they would "run away" while the poor schmucks who had rails on the ground were held captive for the fleecing.