What if Detroit were part of Canada?

[Detroitnerd]

As counterpoint to "What if Windsor were part of the U.S.?" What if Detroit had never been retaken by the United States in the War of 1812 and the Canadian land border sprawled over into the three counties of metro Detroit?

[DetroitPlanner]

I would have had a heck of an easier time buying beer when I was 20!!

[leapfrog]

I would have had a heck of an easier time buying beer when I was 20!!

lol, funny!

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit would have been the destination -- instead of the "last stop" -- on the Underground Railroad ...

[bailey]

As counterpoint to "What if Windsor were part of the U.S.?" What if Detroit had never been retaken by the United States in the War of 1812 and the Canadian land border sprawled over into the three counties of metro Detroit?

It would look like everything else does about a mile outside Windsor on the 401 and what most of the thumb looks like today. It would be largely rural, sparsely populated farmland.... with a shitload of wind turbines. Heck, Windsor would probably not exist as it does today. All that made Detroit Detroit, would probably have happened in like, Pt Huron...or Grand Rapids...or Toledo.

[Detroitnerd]

It would look like everything else does about a mile outside Windsor on the 401 and what most of the thumb looks like today. It would be largely rural, sparsely populated farmland.... with a shitload of wind turbines. Heck, Windsor would probably not exist as it does today. All that made Detroit Detroit, would probably have happened in like, Pt Huron...or Grand Rapids...or Toledo.

That's a good point, you know. Canada doesn't have a whole lot of land in temperate zones, and would likely keep Detroit, which is about a half-zone warmer than the rest of the southeastern part of the state, devoted to largely agricultural uses, with a tight central city.

[iheartthed]

It would look like everything else does about a mile outside Windsor on the 401 and what most of the thumb looks like today. It would be largely rural, sparsely populated farmland.... with a shitload of wind turbines. Heck, Windsor would probably not exist as it does today. All that made Detroit Detroit, would probably have happened in like, Pt Huron...or Grand Rapids...or Toledo.

Or maybe Toronto wouldn't exist in the form that it does today. Detroit likely would still have been a big industrial city no matter what side of the border it ended up on. Maybe not a 2 million person city in 1950, but probably not less than an equivalent of Cleveland or Pittsburgh. Toronto on the other hand owes much of its 20th century population growth to the politics between French and English speaking Canada. If Detroit was the "big city" of English Canada then it would likely have been the beneficiary instead of Toronto...

[bailey]

Or maybe Toronto wouldn't exist in the form that it does today. Detroit likely would still have been a big industrial city no matter what side of the border it ended up on. Maybe not a 2 million person city in 1950, but probably not less than an equivalent of Cleveland or Pittsburgh. Toronto on the other hand owes much of its 20th century population growth to the politics between French and English speaking Canada. If Detroit was the "big city" of English Canada then it would likely have been the beneficiary instead of Toronto...

Ok... Why? You're assuming Detroit would have been the second tier industrial hub it was in the late 1800/early 1900.. even if it had been in Canada. Windsor wasn't...so why assume Detroit would be? All those tired huddled masses immigrating in the 1800s weren't going to Canada. They were going to Industrial cities in the US. And then Detroit exploded with Henry Ford and his $5 work day.

If Ford's dad wanted to emigrate to Canada...he could have, but didn't. Windsor had aboot 20k in the Henry Ford days... its only barely over 200k now. What would the region look like if Ford's dad settled in Toledo?

It would look just like the rest of Ontario... mostly rural, very white, and relatively sparsely populated.

[bailey]

Detroit was also notable for its lack of racial strife during the war. While other industrial cities and population centers saw bloody race riots in the Midwest, fueled by wartime immigration from the Deep South, Detroit pulled its wartime labor force from rural Ontario and other provinces."

What is that from some Detroit Chamber of Commerce Brochure from the 50s?

That is a load of bunk. I mean Jefferies had to call in the Army to stop race riots for cripes sake.

[Detroitnerd]

I wonder what the effects of not having the income from Detroit could have been on the state of Michigan. In the "big city" scenario, not having the Detroit area would have meant the loss of at least three million residents from the state in the 1950 census, cutting Michigan's population almost in half. Instead of 6.3 million residents, the state would be less populous than Wisconsin. All that lost tax revenue could certainly have meant Michigan would remain a rural backwater.

[iheartthed]

Ok... Why? You're assuming Detroit would have been the second tier industrial hub it was in the late 1800/early 1900.. even if it had been in Canada. Windsor wasn't...so why assume Detroit would be?

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

[bailey]

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

Yes.. shipping route, but, without the auto industry...wouldn't it just look like Sarnia and Pt Huron?

[Gistok]

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Lawrence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.

[dtowncitylover]

We would also need more bridges/tunnels for the all the traffic that would cross the river with ease.

[Detroitnerd]

"Luckily for Great Britain, when World War II broke out, ships, guns and shells had already been pouring out of Detroit, which quickly became famous as the Arsenal of the Commonwealth. Given this source of much-needed materiel and ammunition, the United States did not enter the war in earnest until Dec. 8, 1941, after a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor by the Empire of Japan. Detroit was also notable for its lack of racial strife during the war. While other industrial cities and population centers saw bloody race riots in the Midwest, fueled by wartime immigration from the Deep South, Detroit pulled its wartime labor force from rural Ontario and other provinces."

[Detroitnerd]

What is that from some Detroit Chamber of Commerce Brochure from the 50s?

That is a load of bunk.

Yeah, sure it's bunk. I should have prefaced it better. It's supposed to be a news report from this alternate universe in which Detroit is the largest city in Ontario.

[bailey]

Yeah, sure it's bunk. I should have prefaced it better. It's supposed to be a news report from this alternate universe in which Detroit is the largest city in Ontario.

lol. gotcha.

[Hermod]

Not really, the auto industry located in Detroit by accident. Detroit was not an industrial nexus. Given Canuckistani ownership of Detroit [[and maybe all of the lower peninsula after 1812, we might have looked to Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois as the the center of the auto industry.

Nerd, you might do some historical research on the decline of the black population of rural Ontario during the 1870-1940 period. It wasn't always wine and roses for blacks in Ontario.

[Detroitnerd]

Nerd, you might do some historical research on the decline of the black population of rural Ontario during the 1870-1940 period. It wasn't always wine and roses for blacks in Ontario.

Where did I say it was wine and roses for blacks in Ontario?

[Detroitnerd]

Arguing about alternate histories! Now THIS I like!

Well, bailey, bear in mind, Ford's dad was a farmer, not a person seeking out his fortune in even a small city. From my reading it seems Ford was quite unusual for among the farmers at his "Scotch Settlement," a young tinkerer who went to the "big city" of Detroit and left behind the pastoral existence his family had sought out.

And Michigan's industrial heritage doesn't really get going full-bore when the Erie Canal opens in the 1830s, does it? It grew slowly, and was stalled by the Civil War. Now, after the Civil War was over, and the United States could pursue industrialism in earnest, there was a "Michigan Fever" that brought a flood of immigrants across the lakes to get jobs clearcutting Michigan's forests. After the state was all cut over around 1900, many of those workers' descendants wound up migrating down to Detroit to work in the factories. I think that the surplus labor Michigan had at the time the auto boom took off doesn't get the consideration it should.

[bailey]

Arguing about alternate histories! Now THIS I like!

Well, bailey, bear in mind, Ford's dad was a farmer, not a person seeking out his fortune in even a small city. From my reading it seems Ford was quite unusual for among the farmers at his "Scotch Settlement," a young tinkerer who went to the "big city" of Detroit and left behind the pastoral existence his family had sought out.

Ok. sure. but again... Pops didn't move to Canada. Henry could have just as easily sought out the big city of Toledo as an escape from their Northern Ohio farm.

And Michigan's industrial heritage doesn't really get going full-bore when the Erie Canal opens in the 1830s, does it? It grew slowly, and was stalled by the Civil War. Now, after the Civil War was over, and the United States could pursue industrialism in earnest, there was a "Michigan Fever" that brought a flood of immigrants across the lakes to get jobs clearcutting Michigan's forests. After the state was all cut over around 1900, many of those workers' descendants wound up migrating down to Detroit to work in the factories. I think that the surplus labor Michigan had at the time the auto boom took off doesn't get the consideration it should.

Well again though... you're talking about a region that wouldn't have been part of the US since the early 1800s. All that surplus American labor would emigrate down to Toledo or over the Grand Rapids or Chicago... I really don't see them moving in mass to another country.

[iheartthed]

Well again though... you're talking about a region that wouldn't have been part of the US since the early 1800s. All that surplus American labor would emigrate down to Toledo or over the Grand Rapids or Chicago... I really don't see them moving in mass to another country.

Actually, most of them already moved from another country. Most of them came from Europe.

[Detroitnerd]

Ok. sure. but again... Pops didn't move to Canada. Henry could have just as easily sought out the big city of Toledo as an escape from their Northern Ohio farm.

True. I think we forget how much of a draw land was back in them days. Now we're all citified.

Well again though... you're talking about a region that wouldn't have been part of the US since the early 1800s. All that surplus American labor would emigrate down to Toledo or over the Grand Rapids or Chicago... I really don't see them moving in mass to another country.

Yes, they would likely have passed it by, or, in our admittedly absurd alternative universe, repatriated if the conditions were right.

These scenarios are good opportunities to argue or use our crystal balls, but I also like the way they offer an excuse to discuss the actual history as well. Glad you're game for it, Bailey.

[Hermod]

And Michigan's industrial heritage doesn't really get going full-bore when the Erie Canal opens in the 1830s, does it? It grew slowly, and was stalled by the Civil War. Now, after the Civil War was over, and the United States could pursue industrialism in earnest, there was a "Michigan Fever" that brought a flood of immigrants across the lakes to get jobs clearcutting Michigan's forests. After the state was all cut over around 1900, many of those workers' descendants wound up migrating down to Detroit to work in the factories. I think that the surplus labor Michigan had at the time the auto boom took off doesn't get the consideration it should.

It wasn't the "surplus labor" that built Detroit, it was the "surplus capital" from the clear-cutting lumber boom. The lumber barons that were based in Michigan provided seed money to both the fledgeling automotive industry AND the fledgeling interurban industry. As well as being the nexus of the infant auto industry, Detroit [[and Michigan) also had one of the most pervasive interurban systems [[and several city streetcar systems in places like Pontiac, Flint, and Port Huron). The capitalists that bet on the gas powered buggies won and the ones that bet on the electric rail car lost.

[Mikeg]

It wasn't the "surplus labor" that built Detroit, it was the "surplus capital" from the clear-cutting lumber boom. The lumber barons that were based in Michigan provided seed money to both the fledgeling automotive industry AND the fledgeling interurban industry. As well as being the nexus of the infant auto industry, Detroit [[and Michigan) also had one of the most pervasive interurban systems [[and several city streetcar systems in places like Pontiac, Flint, and Port Huron). The capitalists that bet on the gas powered buggies won and the ones that bet on the electric rail car lost.

Bingo!

Within the USA, labor is mobile, as is capital [[however since 2008, labor, not so much). According to Robert Conot in "American Odyssey", much of the capital that fueled Detroit's rise as an industrial powerhouse came from Boston and other East Coast financiers. If Detroit had been part of Canada, their entrepreneurs would have had a harder time acquiring the necessary capital flows they needed to grow their businesses.