State of Michigan has signed a lease for Belle Isle

[Gannon]

Gannon... I only vaguely remember that particular discussion about your theory on Germans... it seems to have had more of an impression on you than it did on me. [[I suppose by the same token one could make a theory over the French propensity to give up during war time, or the Russian propensity for schlepping people to Siberia... or Turkey's issue of always being on the wrong side...)

Wow. Really? Nearly EVERY time I've mentioned the term Nazi in national or local issues, it seems you've chimed in with some form of apologist analysis of why and how I shouldn't mention it. It was no particular discussion, nor have I any postulate or theory...just merely describing what I perceive thus far.

Saying the ends justify the means is simply agreeing with the bad things even a 'good prince' must do to remain in power. It is basic Machiavelli...something I'm sure Snydely has studied closely. I cannot join that ethical lapse.

There is nothing good about this gem falling into the hands of the DNR, not for regular folk. We'll see how long they allow free walk-ons...and what hours of operation they'll keep.

Funny how the promise of freeing city police vaporized...I guess Snydely talked with the troopers and learned how they'd take an island assignment! I'm guessing they're having a lottery for DNR employees to find the lucky ones who'll move downstate for these new positions!

[KOMPOST]

So are these the new rules for Belle Isle then?

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pd...les_Poster.pdf

I wonder who will enforce them. And what standards they'll have. Depending on whether you're from Houghton-Hancock or Highland Park, you may have radically different ideas about what constitutes " ... abusive, loud, boisterous, vulgar, lewd, or otherwise disorderly conduct. ..." A family picnic when "Back that Ass Up" happens to come up on the iPod?

I agree that this is a concern.
In a city that has little else going for it, it is important to have places where the people can let off a little steam.
I fear this very "steam letting" is what some of the pro-State-controlled Belle Isle crowd would like to do away with...completely.
Bare minimum, this needs to be considered.

[Hermod]

I agree that this is a concern.
In a city that has little else going for it, it is important to have places where the people can let off a little steam.
I fear this very "steam letting" is what some of the pro-State-controlled Belle Isle crowd would like to do away with...completely.
Bare minimum, this needs to be considered.

Is "letting off steam" a euphemism for lack of self control, obnoxious and inconsiderate behavior, and a total disregard for the rights and comforts of others?

[Gannon]

If you are around, we'll be sure to include all that...just to help insure your assumptions and justifications are substantiated.

[michimoby]

There is nothing good about this gem falling into the hands of the DNR, not for regular folk.

You may want to expand on that point, Gannon. Who, exactly, defines this "regular folk" demography?

Personally, I'd rather give "regular folk" the opportunity to visit a well-maintained and amenity-rich park than a run-down shitbox that Belle Isle is in danger of becoming.

This wouldn't be an issue if the city did a better job of valuing its assets. Unfortunately, you're not in a Central Park-type situation where a non-profit can provide upkeep and support.

[aj3647]

You may want to expand on that point, Gannon. Who, exactly, defines this "regular folk" demography?

Regular folk are people with families, people with jobs, people who obey the law. Not people who smoke weed and get drunk in parks at 1am, which last time I checked is illegal.

It seems there are a few posters here who are deeply upset that laws might actually be enforced on Belle Isle, as opposed to letting "regular folk let off some steam." As if we don't know that means.

[subsidized]

I'm not sure what the argument against the state leasing Belle Isle is. Michigan state parks are legit. The DNR isn't some kind of GOP machine hellbent on denying Detroit residents access to Belle Isle. The DNR is quite fucking awesome and I suspect that we can look forward to seeing major improvements and renovations to Belle Isle.

It's probably not likely, but in a perfect world the money previously spent on maintenance there could now be used to clean up the neighborhood parks so maybe kids would have a nice clean park down the street to play at. But fuck those kids right? Gannon wants to drink 40's and Detroitnerd just likes to talk... so fuck those kids.

[Wesley Mouch]

I agree that this is a concern.
In a city that has little else going for it, it is important to have places where the people can let off a little steam.
I fear this very "steam letting" is what some of the pro-State-controlled Belle Isle crowd would like to do away with...completely.
Bare minimum, this needs to be considered.

Parks are to help people 'letting off steam'. Go running, hike, picnic, dance, skate, relax, talk, play soccer.

Society is to channel bad ways of letting off steam into ways that contribute to personal and social well-being. Yelling at someone and howling at the moon are 'letting off steam' -- but expressions that we'd like to channel better.

This concerns looks to me like these nay-sayers think that the State will tamp down some of the normal and healthy BI activities. Maybe a little tamping down is good. Too much would be bad and inconsiderate. I trust the DNR to handle this -- and if they don't the city council and the chorus of 'no' can speak up then. Until then its just prejudice, isn't it. I've no evidence of the State judging BI activities. But the 'no' chorus sure seems to have judged the State harshly before they've arrived. Give them a chance -- and help guide them. Don't just say 'no'.

[Gannon]

Perhaps the lease should be up for PUBLIC revue every election cycle...that would be a great feedback mechanism for the citizenry, perhaps even driving some to the polls in off-presidential years. Win-win, then.

Every two years, the populace gets to vote up or down to continue leasing Belle Isle to the state. With provision for special election for emergency, in the case the DNR completely abuses their power.

And allow an Indigenous Exemption to grandfather in habits instilled by our grandfathers...anyone with a Detroit birth certificate gets 24-hour access, until they abuse that priviledge.

I see nothing wrong with that compromise.

[Cliffy]

Regular folk are people with families, people with jobs, people who obey the law. Not people who smoke weed and get drunk in parks at 1am, which last time I checked is illegal.

It seems there are a few posters here who are deeply upset that laws might actually be enforced on Belle Isle, as opposed to letting "regular folk let off some steam." As if we don't know that means.

I don't understand how any city in the world can move forward when the biggest concern to some people isn't a safe and clean park with bathrooms, no its whether they can blow off steam [[aka smoke weed and drink 40 ounces at 1 am). Memo to these people, us "regular folk" the ones that work at least 40 hours a week, pay taxes, and are civilized within western standards don't want you folks blowing steam in our presence. Frankly, I can do without a group of 40 year old losers drinking alcohol out of paper bags while riding to the park on a bike.

[Wesley Mouch]

Perhaps the lease should be up for PUBLIC revue every election cycle...that would be a great feedback mechanism for the citizenry, perhaps even driving some to the polls in off-presidential years. Win-win, then.

Every two years, the populace gets to vote up or down to continue leasing Belle Isle to the state. With provision for special election for emergency, in the case the DNR completely abuses their power.

And allow an Indigenous Exemption to grandfather in habits instilled by our grandfathers...anyone with a Detroit birth certificate gets 24-hour access, until they abuse that priviledge.

I see nothing wrong with that compromise.

I see nothing wrong. Except that its a little late for compromise. And you don't usually 'compromise' when you are offering help. Gift horse in the mouth, if you will.

But that said, there's nothing wrong with your ideas.

An 'out clause' should the city be ready, willing, and able to manage the park and sell bonds to the payoff any State debt that they're out. Perfectly reasonable. Although a little silly.

And as to the CoD birth certificate free pass... well, sure. But at this point what's the point. You'd be better off finding someone to just pay the $11.00 state fee. A charitable fund to cover costs for Detroit residents with poverty-level income. I'm sure you could get support for that.

But stop for a second and think about whether this is that important. Its a park. In a city that's morally and financially bankrupt. Parks are important -- but there are much bigger fish to fry. And there are other parks. So just deal with it.

[Gistok]

Gannon, you seem to be the one who has not been paying attention to my Nazi comments...

I find the comments about the right wingers comparing Obama to Hitler... or the left wing comparing republicans to Nazi's... as flippant.

In my comments I mentioned that the Nazi's were so much worse than either end [[or middle) of our political and our local/metro/state politicians and movers and shakers ever were. The loss of 6 million innocents isn't lost on me... nor should it be on those who use Nazi's as an argument to whip up support for what might be an otherwise banal cause...

In the past I've mentioned how both my parents lived thru the horrors of Nazi Germany. I merely criticize those that use Naziism as a pretext for arguing a totally unrelated point that they don't like... [[such as the Belle Isle takeover) when it was so much worse than that...

[coracle]

Perhaps the lease should be up for PUBLIC revue every election cycle...that would be a great feedback mechanism for the citizenry, perhaps even driving some to the polls in off-presidential years. Win-win, then.

Every two years, the populace gets to vote up or down to continue leasing Belle Isle to the state. With provision for special election for emergency, in the case the DNR completely abuses their power.

And allow an Indigenous Exemption to grandfather in habits instilled by our grandfathers...anyone with a Detroit birth certificate gets 24-hour access, until they abuse that priviledge.

I see nothing wrong with that compromise.

It's a very simple decision; lease it or run it. If you lease it EVERYBODY enjoys it equally with no special entitlements based on Birth Certificates or grandfathers. Reviewing the Lease at every voting time would be a deal killer. I'd vote for a Lease to Own and include annual payments to Detroit for the purchase. It's not a good deal where the one that's paying the Lease may not be calling all the shots.

[Gannon]

It's not a good deal where the one that's paying the Lease may not be calling all the shots.

Bullpuckets.

In no way, shape, or form will any property owner with any brains sign off on final control over THEIR property.

No debt should be incurred without City Council approval, that way the State could never incur enough debt on purpose to subvert the city's ability to reclaim total control over this property as soon as possible.


Period.

Most of y'all don't even use the park as often as I'm there...I'm betting. I see who is there early, and occasionally late. In the past, though, I've had significantly different hours there. But it has been one of the constants of my life in Detroit.

I've seen a new bridge get built lately, so the city OBVIOUSLY has some means to pay for maintenance on the island. How was funding secured for that and the wild changes at the eastern tip? [[I'm curious how the bridge supports weather the force of the iceflow in the Springtime, actually.)

Snydely promised garbage cans and trash pickup. Big deal, that happens now, regularly and very well.

Still not convinced...not even close...that this is in the interest of the citizens of Detroit and people concerned with its legacy.

I think it is funny how the annual costs hovered around $6 million when it was necessary and convenient to use that figure, and it is said to be less a few million now. But the state only appropriated 2.5 million for it when Snydely originally revealed his evil plans...it is all fuzzy math. Funky math.

[Gannon]

Btw, we already pay the state park fee on both of the vehicles in our household...I'm a supporter of what the DNR does with campgrounds and State Parks. Just not in my backyard.

And I didn't see in that page of rules any restrictions against alcohol, just no glass bottles on the beaches. I say HAVING them should be allowed, but serious fines if anyone breaks one.


Cheers!

[Gannon]

I see nothing wrong. Except that its a little late for compromise. And you don't usually 'compromise' when you are offering help. Gift horse in the mouth, if you will.

Yeah, but you shouldn't have to collectively kiss its ass, either. Or let it walk all over you. I'm just sayin'...

[Novine]

The state has a a mixed record when it comes to running parks. Before the new Passport program was started, the DNR had almost no money for capital improvements. The state legislature had severely cut back funding to the DNR. Snyder's hedging on improvements to the island reflects the fact that the DNR isn't flush with cash and that there's nothing to stop the money collected from users of Belle Isle from being funneled of to improve parks where Republican legislators live.

[Cliffy]

The state has a a mixed record when it comes to running parks. Before the new Passport program was started, the DNR had almost no money for capital improvements. The state legislature had severely cut back funding to the DNR. Snyder's hedging on improvements to the island reflects the fact that the DNR isn't flush with cash and that there's nothing to stop the money collected from users of Belle Isle from being funneled of to improve parks where Republican legislators live.

Then make it a Federal park and be done with it.

[Gistok]

Btw, we already pay the state park fee on both of the vehicles in our household...I'm a supporter of what the DNR does with campgrounds and State Parks. Just not in my backyard.

Well it's too late to play the NIMBY game... DNR with their Natural Resources Trust Fund has already spent over $35 million on Milliken State Park, the Riverwalk and the Dequindre Cut.

Who do you think paid for the Dequindre Cut?? It was mostly money from the state. In 2010 they started paying out more money to expand the cut northward. Are you against that as well?

I just don't understand your logic... if they've already spent $35 million on those 3 east riverfront areas... why do you somehow think that they'll shortchange Belle Isle?

[Gistok]

The state has often scrimped on allocating funds for the DNR Department.

But with the increase in the funds of mineral rights, the cash flow coming into the MNRTF [[Michigan Natural Resources Trust Fund) account allows 1/3 of the nearly $500 million fund to be distributed in grants.

Here's the background on the fund...
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7...9513--,00.html


Here's the grant history of the fund... which has been pretty generous to Wayne County...

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...2_429552_7.pdf

[Richard]

I guess one could say the island has been run like the city for the past 40 years,is it not conceivable that as the city becomes more organized so does the island.

Would it be better to form a separate entity in charge of the island but outside the city politics.

It is a large piece of property which is probably out of the cities park departments scope of knowledge and time constraints,it needs full time thought and organization.

The city retains ownership,checks and balances are overseen by the new council members if things were to get out of hand,as a back up plan.

The state is already spending millions on the shipyards for a state park,do they really need another liability?

Has anybody really gone through and seen what has been done there in the past two years by volunteers and corporate funding,they have put alot of time and energy to make it a better place for all,what do you tell them now? Thanks,now piss off?

The Detroit Zoo is committing $1.000.000 to the zoo on the island,things are happening there,maybe not at the speed many would like but it has come along way.

Maybe two years ago,yea okay it might have been better under state control,but maybe now is the time to give the city a chance.

Lots of cliques,you created the mess you clean it up,pull yourself up by the bootstraps etc. etc. How about giving them some time to do it?

People say they would not send a dime to Detroit because it is a crap hole,but, we will have that island or anything else that may have future value because it is in the best interest.

There seems to be no compromise here,believe my view or get up against the wall with the blindfold on because you are to stupid to see it.

So instead of having a pissing contest and name calling would it not be be better if all of this massive brain power was used to come up with a workable solution that pleases everybody.Or are all the creative out of the box thinkers now employed by Mr. Gilbert.

[Richard]

So how do cities offset the operating costs of large parks.

A few examples would be.

Pavilions:Large groups may rent/reserve them for gatherings,this form is used to insure that they are available and generates income.

When not rented or reserved they are available to the general public on a first come first served basis.

Any other thoughts?

[Wesley Mouch]

Richard,

Many good and valid points. I don't really see much of an issue here. There's just nothing wrong with the State running the park. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with the State taking ownership.

This State and our City are just political entities to deliver us a good park. I just don't care which one. Leave that to squabbling vultures trying to suck the marrow out of the bones of our city.

In the meantime, the State has stepped in and started a process to build an economic foundation for Detroiters. One upon which they can succeed. This is a reasonable way of handling the park -- imperfect perhaps -- be not so bad.

I don't hear the State doing anything except making a reasonable offer to help Detroit out. And I hear a small subset of malcontents unhappy who would stop Jesus coming down on a moonbeam if he wasn't wearing the right clothes.

Give the park away. But ensure that it will be there for our city and state citizens to use under reasonable terms. Its really not that hard unless you want to make this a proxy battle about how someone done someone wrong.

[wolverine]

So how do cities offset the operating costs of large parks.

A few examples would be.

Pavilions:Large groups may rent/reserve them for gatherings,this form is used to insure that they are available and generates income.

When not rented or reserved they are available to the general public on a first come first served basis.

Any other thoughts?

Big private sponsorships help. Typically to win their dollars they get a pavilion or plaza named after the company for the duration of their contribution. The park needs to get a lot visits to be worth their support but I think belle isle qualifies.

[Detroitnerd]

Big private sponsorships help. Typically to win their dollars they get a pavilion or plaza named after the company for the duration of their contribution. The park needs to get a lot visits to be worth their support but I think belle isle qualifies.

They may help balance the budget, but they are a nuisance in everyday life. There's something sad and cringe-inducing about taking your child to see, say, the General Motors James Scott Fountain, or relaxing in front of the Quicken Loans/Rock Financial Casino. It's just one of those ugly things a lot of us have gotten all too used too, like tacky billboards [["They generate revenue!") and questionable web ads [["Tire changers starting at $999!").