State of Michigan has signed a lease for Belle Isle

[Honky Tonk]

Um, the whole time I was arguing against this ... as a Detroiter. What the fuck are you talking about? I'm overlooking my own plight?

Don't you own a home and live in Hamtramck?

[Detroitnerd]

Don't you own a home and live in Hamtramck?

Now I do. I said the whole time I was arguing against this ... as a Detroiter. Anyway, what's the motherfucking difference? Hamtramck's in the same plight, under an emergency manager -- although it wasn't Lansing so much as it was American Axle moving its factory to Mexico.

What, was that your big gotcha moment. Pffffttt...

[Detroitnerd]

No, you display callous disregard for others' plight. You have your own "fight the man" issues bouncing around in your head that conflict with what's best for everyone else.

You may be projecting, Det_ard. You have your own "trust the man" issues right out in the open. Meanwhile, if somebody asked you to sign a blind contract, I think you'd decline ...

[coracle]

Now I do. I said the whole time I was arguing against this ... as a Detroiter. Anyway, what's the motherfucking difference? Hamtramck's in the same plight, under an emergency manager

Looks like EM's follow you around. Are you still white?

[coracle]

It's just a coincidence that the people pushing this program are outstate whites who ... well, I've been Up North. I know how they speak about the city and its residents.

They probably thought you were looking for a place up there and when they heard your views, like normal people they would say anything to get rid of an asshole.

[noise]

Hahaha. That's an interesting bit of sophistry, noise. If you want to deny that there's a great deal of ugly racism outstate, be my guest. But don't try to accuse me of reverse racism.

I wouldn't deny that, nor would I deny there's a great deal of racism in the city, going all ways. The latter seems to be the bigger problem when it comes to the Belle Isle deal, though.

You could always claim you didn't mean what you said.

[Gistok]

People outstate think anything south of Saginaw is ghetto...

I know someone in Rochester who's friends in Alpena are afraid to visit her...

But that's all beside the point... the state has done a wonderful job with Milliken State Park [[former Tricentennial Park) so all this grousing getting it mixed into the EM discussion is peripheral at best.

Belle Isle is a gem that needs to be polished... and the state will do that better than anyone. My take is that the canals will be dredged and the banks along them will be enhanced. It would be nice to get canoes back in service along the island, and as for the huge Grand Prix paddocks... maybe the state can turn it into a vast ice skating rink in the cold weather months... providing it gets cold enough.

I would like to see them drain and do something with the forest in the middle of the eastern end of the island... right now you could film a "Swamp Thing" movie in that Bayou... They need to eliminate all that dead vegetation.

And then there's the Belle Isle Zoo... something needs to be done with that as well.

Belle Isle will provide a challenge to the State DNR, but Milliken Park seems to be doing rather well, what with the future expansion and new constructions for park activities.

Really... as long as the park is improved, who cares about the politics...

[corktownyuppie]

You don't understand. It is the powers that be in Lansing that are responsible for plunging the city into bankruptcy.

I don't understand? My argument is that Detroit was going bankrupt one way or the other. It was either now or in a few years. Not because of the revenue/cost imbalance...but because of future population loss.

Things are bad for Detroit, yes, but at least it had its democracy intact.

Well I guess that's where we'll never agree. When there's a fire at my house, I just want the fire truck to come. I don't care if it was administered/paid by Detroit or administered/paid by Lansing or administered/paid by Robocop.

I'm not alone in this regard...poll the 300,000 former residents who left in the last decade.

You keep insisting that democracy was taken away from us. Guess what. Detroit is probably one of the finest examples of why not every single locality can handle democracy.

Democracy is an inalienable right.

But local, home-rule democracy is a privilege that requires means and the ability to wisely allocate those resources.

Democracy wasn't taken away. It was just moved from one democracy to a bigger democracy.

[corktownyuppie]

[[As a whole) who uses the DIA, Cobo Hall, Eastern Market and Campus Martius?
[[As a whole) who uses DPS?

What kind of city do we want to be? The kind that attracts only the people who couldn't leave? Or the kind that is home to neighbors near and far?

[Wesley Mouch]

...Democracy is an inalienable right.

But local, home-rule democracy is a privilege that requires means and the ability to wisely allocate those resources.

Democracy wasn't taken away. It was just moved from one democracy to a bigger democracy.

Concise. Brilliant. True.

[Gannon]

Belle Isle is a gem that needs to be polished... and the state will do that better than anyone. [[huh?! why?)

...

Really... as long as the park is improved, who cares about the politics...

Jawohl!

Sieg Heil...



"As long as things improve for us, who cares how it happens" is one of the logical ways nasty-minded folk gain control over us all. Is Governor Snydely a dictator? Found a like-minded lackey in Orr? Sure does seem that way to me.


Not convinced having a bunch of disgruntled troopers holding down the fort is the right answer. Who do you think is going to earn this tony outpost, the rookies...or the vets? Not too many of 'em are going to yearn to be bored to death on an island in the middle of the city. They don't become State Troopers to guard a park. They'll take to sniping at the hipsters on Freak Beach.


The park where Robert Oakman used to have his late-night drinking meetings with Mayor Pingree is mere history if this lease goes through. I'm going to miss the freedom of lapping it and/or parking and walking whenever the mood strikes...and I wasn't kidding about late-night meetings under the Full Moon with 40s. Homeland Security and the Detroit Police drove on by ours this past month...and we didn't end it until well after midnight.

I'm hating this more and more...and it doesn't help one bit that Mike Duggan is on the right side this time. Damn it! LOL...


But seriously, is it TRUE that there are NO guarantees that there will be any improvements done?

[Gannon]

Concise. Brilliant. True.

Um, no. Not true. Home rule is the foundation of democracy. Here it morphed from representative democracy to a form of oligarchy.

It was forced from outside by someone who snuck around the democratic rule which voted DOWN any form of EM. Please do not ignore that fact.

[sumas]

This certainly has been an interesting thread. Covered a whole more than just Belle Isle being leased. I have my own opinions regarding said lease, EFM, racism etc. but I honestly enjoy a civil discussion and feel many comments expressed, expanded my knowledge and world [[substitute Detroit) view.

Must say though that the farther north you go the nastier folk get about Detroit. We have wealthy relatives with an impressive compound north of Grand Rapids. We have been declining invites for a long time cause just can't stand their feelings and their friends feeling towards Detroit. Smug might be the word, not sure. I think they think they are giving us some kind of escape. I am Detroit by choice, sure not perfect, but I hate smug!

[Honky Tonk]

Now I do. I said the whole time I was arguing against this ... as a Detroiter. Anyway, what's the motherfucking difference? Hamtramck's in the same plight, under an emergency manager -- although it wasn't Lansing so much as it was American Axle moving its factory to Mexico.

What, was that your big gotcha moment. Pffffttt...

"the motherfucking difference" is that some of us have decided to stay and fight, some have decided to bail and become arm-chair quarterbacks, pushing whatever personal agendas/issues they may have. The thread title reads "State of Michigan has signed a lease for Belle Isle" Not "Yet another grand stand to promote my personal problems". Besides, by your own admission, you being North of me, makes you a racist.

[michimoby]

Um, no. Not true. Home rule is the foundation of democracy. Here it morphed from representative democracy to a form of oligarchy.

It was forced from outside by someone who snuck around the democratic rule which voted DOWN any form of EM. Please do not ignore that fact.

From my outside vantage point [[or "armchairing" as Honky Tonk puts it), it appears that none of our democratic systems in status quo form are working all too well at the moment.

The irony of all this is that a democratically elected Congress has tailspun into a ball of severe inefficiency, preventing me and millions of other Americans from being able to visit any of our fine National Parks, as well as most of our National Monuments.

There's too many parallels between this current shutdown scenario and the historically gross ineptitude of Detroit's elected officials to state concisely.

[Honky Tonk]

From my outside vantage point [[or "armchairing" as Honky Tonk puts it), it appears that none of our democratic systems in status quo form are working all too well at the moment.

The irony of all this is that a democratically elected Congress has tailspun into a ball of severe inefficiency, preventing me and millions of other Americans from being able to visit any of our fine National Parks, as well as most of our National Monuments.

There's too many parallels between this current shutdown scenario and the historically gross ineptitude of Detroit's elected officials to state concisely.

I agree, and no offense....

[Richard]

Maybe it would be better to place this on hold,it seems as decisions and attitudes are based on the past and not taking into account a form of city government not seen before is being put in place soon.

Maybe things are not up to par now but without giving a chance to in the future is cutting it short.

What,I wonder,is wrong with a city being able to maybe retain some of its identity and allow her something to build a future on?

Based on comments all across the web many would like the city to exist in name only,there is so much anger and resentment because of what has happened in the past,we as Americans are supposed to be better then that.

By implementing the new charter and supporting a change for better city government,not only supporting but demanding it,shows that it is trying to put the past behind,maybe a little more support and saying good work instead of continually beating into the ground.

Basing everything on here and now and what is happening today is cutting the future short,sooner or later we are going to have to give her a chance,at least let her keep something on her plate.

What would it hurt to put this on hold temporarily? Are things not on the table now that clearly show that the past is being left behind?

Rash decisions being made under duress that will have long term repercussions for short term solutions.

[Honky Tonk]

Maybe it would be better to place this on hold,it seems as decisions and attitudes are based on the past and not taking into account a form of city government not seen before is being put in place soon.

Maybe things are not up to par now but without giving a chance to in the future is cutting it short.

What,I wonder,is wrong with a city being able to maybe retain some of its identity and allow her something to build a future on?

Based on comments all across the web many would like the city to exist in name only,there is so much anger and resentment because of what has happened in the past,we as Americans are supposed to be better then that.

By implementing the new charter and supporting a change for better city government,not only supporting but demanding it,shows that it is trying to put the past behind,maybe a little more support and saying good work instead of continually beating into the ground.

Basing everything on here and now and what is happening today is cutting the future short,sooner or later we are going to have to give her a chance,at least let her keep something on her plate.

What would it hurt to put this on hold temporarily? Are things not on the table now that clearly show that the past is being left behind?

Rash decisions being made under duress that will have long term repercussions for short term solutions.

If I offer to clean and wash your car for you because you're short, N/C, does that mean you've relinquished ownership of your car?

[sumas]

I don't think a lease is harming us. Can't get much worse. If we are to talk "rape" or whoring I was not pleased with citizens being excluded from the park for the races or concerts.

Sadly it is older citizens who vote in general. We just remember an amazing park with many amenities. We would like that back for our grandchildren.

I never much liked the "new" zoo with its board walk and poor creatures below living in mud. The old petting zoo with farm animals and hands on interaction was great. Still giggle when I remember my sister had a goat eat the fake rose on the sash of her dress.

[Richard]

If I offer to clean and wash your car for you because you're short, N/C, does that mean you've relinquished ownership of your car?

I have never been to Belle Isle but reading some history on it and reading comments on here tells me that it was a very dear and important part of the cities identity and pride.

It is clear that the city is or has been lacking that in the past,so okay spank them.

But it does seem as though there are some places on the island that have taken the initiative to get that back on their own as Detroiters or supporters of.

A lease is just that,as in this case the city would be in essence relinquishing control.

In theory it has nothing to do with an island at all.

So one more time,what would it hurt if this was shelved for a year?

It is not going anywhere and in a years time revisit it.

[Honky Tonk]

I have never been to Belle Isle but reading some history on it and reading comments on here tells me that it was a very dear and important part of the cities identity and pride.

It is clear that the city is or has been lacking that in the past,so okay spank them.

But it does seem as though there are some places on the island that have taken the initiative to get that back on their own as Detroiters or supporters of.

A lease is just that,as in this case the city would be in essence relinquishing control.

In theory it has nothing to do with an island at all.

So one more time,what would it hurt if this was shelved for a year?

It is not going anywhere and in a years time revisit it.

Belle Isle has been "shelved" for about 40 years. The people who are actively trying to actually DO something with the few anemities still functioning on the island, are struggling. They could use a shot in the arm, instead of aspirins. The other issue is there are other forces @ play, [[ oncreting the island, running assorted auto races, rock concerts, etc.) that scare me WAY more then the State DNR. There seems to be NO opposition to those forces, [[can you say kickback?), just the State of MI "leasing" the island.

[Detroitnerd]

"the motherfucking difference" is that some of us have decided to stay and fight, some have decided to bail and become arm-chair quarterbacks, pushing whatever personal agendas/issues they may have. The thread title reads "State of Michigan has signed a lease for Belle Isle" Not "Yet another grand stand to promote my personal problems". Besides, by your own admission, you being North of me, makes you a racist.

Hahaha. I think this is called "the narcissism of small differences." I lived in Detroit for 10 straight years and then bought a house in Hamtramck. I still work in Detroit. If I want to leave Hamtramck at any time, there is Detroit, all around me. Hell, I'm north, east, west and SOUTH of Detroit.

How the hell do I "overlook the plight of the citizens who have to suffer under the burden of mismanagement, ineptitude and corruption" when I'm opposed to Detroit not having a democratically elected government? No, Honky, this is all a tangle of sophistry to get us talking about me, not the issue. But if you want to talk about me, I'm in the SAME MOTHERFUCKING BOAT, am I not? Shit, man, what is the government of Hamtramck characterized by if not mismanagement, ineptitude and corruption? I'd still rather have every clown on the council than Cathy Square's shakedown.

When you feel like you're defending people by taking away their democracy, I frankly don't know what to tell you. What you're doing is taking away people's democracy in the hopes that things get better.

They tried that with DPS, didn't they? The state sank DPS into hundreds of millions of dollars of debt and demolished lots of schools. Why, after such events, you'd want to place your faith in the state again is a mystery. Unless you have some ulterior motive, perhaps? Is your hatred of Detroit's politicians so great that you'd bring down the whole temple just to ice them too? I don't get you, man.

As for me being a "class warrior," wake up. Class warfare is carried on in this country every day. It's usually called "reform" or "rightsizing" or some other such term. And we're supposed to accept all that. But if you bluntly point out that the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer and democracy keeps getting thinner, you're some malcontent stabbing an angry finger in the air? Come on, dude. I know I can be confrontational and opinionated, even cynical, but when it comes to misplaced faith and trust, you sound much more deluded than I ever could.

[Detroitnerd]

Anyway, listening to Snyder on Craig Fahle Show this morning was interesting. Snyder is a pretty polished speaker, and knows not to get himself trapped in his remarks later. Amid all the upbeat commentary, did you cock your ears to the things he said he "hoped" [[i.e., would not guarantee) would be the case?

He said he "hoped" the state would pump money into improving the park.

He said he "hoped" the state would come up with ways to let people buy the yearly pass on the spot.

This is the sort of stuff that worries me when we get our hopes up that the park is going to be all shined up and Detroiters are going to enjoy it just as they always did. Now, in a contract, you could have guaranteed what Lansing's responsibilities would be. Now, we're all -- including Snyder, assuming he's being honest -- just hoping.

Good luck with that.

[noise]

People outstate think anything south of Saginaw is ghetto...

I know someone in Rochester who's friends in Alpena are afraid to visit her...

I grew up in Bruce Twp. My in-laws from Cadillac think I'm a city boy.

[noise]

...and I wasn't kidding about late-night meetings under the Full Moon with 40s. Homeland Security and the Detroit Police drove on by ours this past month...and we didn't end it until well after midnight.

Maybe you'd have better luck if you weren't drinking a kiddie beverage!