Schostak Bros. plans $111M 16-story office building downtown Detroit office tower

[Jason]

There are no additional plans for the site. There's this office building and its parking garage which occupy the entire site except for the awkward gaps created by, as Gistok put it, putting a square block in a round hole.

I think universal opinion among architects [[architects who care about architecture anyway) would be to use a similar massing as the first national bank building or compuware building across the street, unless there was a compelling reason to do otherwise. The way such a massing would define the urban spaces of campus martius and cadillac square, the way it works with the geometric beaux arts plan of the area, the way it forms a street wall with cadillac tower... it just works and is a straightforward good solution.

Now, I'm sure there are plenty of good reasons to not use such a massing, but being too lazy to design a building with diagonal lines is not one of them.


Earlier in the thread some have evoked the "Detroit can't be picky" line. It's true that the local economy and real estate market prevents many things from happening in Detroit, but this building's problems are not a matter of budget, they're a matter of basic professional ability.

If you hire a plumber to install a new toilet, and they flood your house, do you just say "Detroit can't be picky"? If a retirement home hires a dj for an event, and the dj blasts dubstep all night because that's all they know how to do, do you just say "beggars can't be choosers"?

[NoHeartAnthony]

I'm not seeing the issue with the design. If you're looking for a taller structure, this is what the market is demanding. If there were the need to build high downtown, there would be more proposals. Maybe not in the vertical sense, but for more workers to be downtown.

The call for the building to fill the space is a little much. Out of 100 potential designs for that plot, I doubt more than 10 are going to encompass every last square inch. The need for a streetwall is a little overstated. In an already dense area, it's not really a requirement.

[Gistok]

Dan Gilbert did a good job of filling his "Z" site on Farmer and Broadway. He did a nice job of maximizing the odd "Z" shaped building to take over the entire site.

Now a lot of folks here have a chip on their shoulder against Gilbert [[and some for legitimate reasons)... but you have to give the man credit for trying to stay with the existing streetwall.

His vision for the Beaux Arts styled Cadillac square also shows respect for that space. And the free space in this futuristic image all pushes towards the street.

He may have his more garish impulses, but what I don't understand is why "he gets it"... but yet Schostak doesn't??

Because we're not talking about some out of the way spot downtown... but the last piece of undeveloped land on the PREMIER square in the city center. I'm beyond caring about how tall it is or its' outer skin... but its Campus Martius/Cadillac Square facade should respect [[rather than ignore) its' surroundings.

[bailey]

Because we're not talking about some out of the way spot downtown... but the last piece of undeveloped land on the PREMIER square in the city center. I'm beyond caring about how tall it is or its' outer skin... but its Campus Martius/Cadillac Square facade should respect [[rather than ignore) its' surroundings.

This. Yes, a building where there was a parking lot is a net gain... however, it's just a little depressing that this is the best we can do around here. Its as if schostack had this plan in a file cabinet somewhere for some mothballed suburban office park and ...since they'd already paid for it...thought, hey, lets plop it on this site.

[NoHeartAnthony]

What does a design that abuts the street offer that one set back does not?

[DetroitPlanner]

His vision for the Beaux Arts styled Cadillac square also shows respect for that space. And the free space in this futuristic image all pushes towards the street.

I am not seeing what is Beaux Arts about the pic you have posted. All of the improvements look very modern.

Regarding set-backs. Many cities will give a developer extra points for providing space at the bottom of taller buildings for quasi-public gathering spaces. I think that is what is being accomplished with this design.

If you look at the former COmerica Tower, you will see that these spaces are all around the building. I would not call it being harsh to the site.

I don't see it as ignoring the space but as creating interesting angles and negative space areas.

To another poster, I don't see this as being a cookie cutter building at all. It was designed for the lot. Now you may not like the design, but I would hardly call it not fitting to the space.

[NoHeartAnthony]

Right on. From the looks of the design, it looks to be a showcase for the company. Traveling north on Woodward, opening up to the full display of the building. From Campus Martius, instead of being exposed to a rounded corner, you're getting the full breadth of the entrance. Same going for those inhabiting the space. Those offices overlooking CM will be highly sought.

Covering the entire footprint of the property, does this offer anything other than some visual appeal to those who adore density?

[Zug]

It actually looks a lot nicer than what I was expecting. I was expecting a green glass box with a hat [[some sort of design element on the roof). I think some of the disappointment with a setback is that it looks less urban. I say that's a legitimate critique. However, it's not like most of what's around Campus Martius looks urban. So it doesn't necessarily stick out as going against the fabric of the area. The new building looks different enough to not be stale...yet conservative enough to not stick out like a gaudy monstrosity. I'd give it a B, if I were grading it.

My only concern is that the building will turn into a green box with a hat once the design is finalized and construction starts.

[Gistok]

I am not seeing what is Beaux Arts about the pic you have posted. All of the improvements look very modern.

I never mentioned Gilbert's "improvements" as being Beaux Arts... just the original design of the square...

[Gistok]

Right on. From the looks of the design, it looks to be a showcase for the company. Traveling north on Woodward, opening up to the full display of the building. From Campus Martius, instead of being exposed to a rounded corner, you're getting the full breadth of the entrance. Same going for those inhabiting the space. Those offices overlooking CM will be highly sought.

Covering the entire footprint of the property, does this offer anything other than some visual appeal to those who adore density?

If you look at the map of the building footprint... it's not oriented towards Woodward or Campus Martius or Cadillac Square. Only that it's north side appears to be aligned with Monroe.

It's on the most "central" and important of all squares in the city... are we supposed to assume that "appeal" should not be taken into account??

[DetroitPlanner]

If you look at the map of the building footprint... it's not oriented towards Woodward or Campus Martius or Cadillac Square. Only that it's north side appears to be aligned with Monroe.

It's on the most "central" and important of all squares in the city... are we supposed to assume that "appeal" should not be taken into account??

I've not seen a map of the building footprint. Can you please provide a link to it?

[Gistok]

I've not seen a map of the building footprint. Can you please provide a link to it?

DP... this is a "rough outline" of the building [[even with Monroe St.). It may be larger than shown here, in which case it would requre a larger setback in front....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8293062...42393/sizes/l/

[Jason]

I am not seeing what is Beaux Arts about the pic you have posted. All of the improvements look very modern.

Beaux arts in the planning sense, not in the stylistic sense.

Regarding set-backs. Many cities will give a developer extra points for providing space at the bottom of taller buildings for quasi-public gathering spaces. I think that is what is being accomplished with this design.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if Detroit still had stuff like that left over from 50 years ago, but in this situation there's nothing the developer could have wanted that they wouldn't normally be able to do. It's not like the city only allows 10 stories for that site and by adding "public space" they were allowed 16.

If you look at the former COmerica Tower, you will see that these spaces are all around the building. I would not call it being harsh to the site.

The problem isn't as much an issue of setbacks as it is an issue of form and space more generally.

To another poster, I don't see this as being a cookie cutter building at all. It was designed for the lot. Now you may not like the design, but I would hardly call it not fitting to the space.

The design is extraordinarily generic. In the literal sense it was designed for the site, but attitude-wise, it was not. The architects followed the same routine that they usually do and just shrugged their shoulders when it didn't fit very well.

Right on. From the looks of the design, it looks to be a showcase for the company.

Yes, they would like it to be a showcase building. Unfortunately no one involved in the process knows what a showcase building actually is. We're earning our place as flyover country.

Traveling north on Woodward, opening up to the full display of the building. From Campus Martius, instead of being exposed to a rounded corner, you're getting the full breadth of the entrance. Same going for those inhabiting the space. Those offices overlooking CM will be highly sought.

Getting a few extra degrees of visibility on Campus Martius is at least *a* reason. I personally don't think it's worth it, but it is a reason.

I don't think it's *the* reason. Or at least I don't think it's a goal that was consistently worked towards.

Otherwise, at every opportunity the building would try to be more oriented towards the park, but we see the box thing that surrounds the restaurant/cafeteria blocks views towards campus martius, and is positioned on the side of the building rather than the corner where it would truly have a great overlook of campus martius.

And having extrusions on the facade, or changes to the plan in general, would also be assumed to be working towards that goal, but they appear to just stick out [[because the extrusions are just cliche "contemporary elements" tacked on after the fact).

If the view of campus martius is the main driving factor of the massing then the massing would be a balancing act between rotating the offices to campus martius as much as possible while still leaving enough width for the parking garage and breezeway.

But anyway, if that was a goal I could accept that if it was more thoughtfully carried through. And that still doesn't exclude simply bringing the building to the east enough to meet up with cadillac tower.

Covering the entire footprint of the property, does this offer anything other than some visual appeal to those who adore density?

I don't personally care about how much of a property a building takes up. And to me density is a functional thing [[square footages and number of people [[which is not something architects have much control of anyway)) and not an aesthetic. But I do care about space and formal logic. If Mies van der Rohe were hired I'm sure the result would be great, and very little of the site would be covered.


Funnily enough, the office building has at least 4 different kinds of curtain wall which only tangentially relate to the interior functions. Meanwhile the stair tower for the parking garage, which is genuinely a different function which could justify a different expression in the facade, actually uses one of the office curtain walls.

[bailey]

Just me or does this building have a Picasso-ish/ Tiki God/Easter Island face thing going on?

[401don]

It's too bad when we have such gorgeous art-deco buildings like the Guardian, Stott, etc. that none of them have a presence overlooking CMart. Instead we get this fugly mess.

[DetroitPlanner]

Just me or does this building have a Picasso-ish/ Tiki God/Easter Island face thing going on?

Yeah it definitely is trying to use objects to balance out the mass in a way that is asymmetrical. I think it is probably a reaction to the overly symmetrical Compuware next door.

I do agree with 401Don, it would be pretty cool to get something there that embraces our heritage buildings the way that 150 W Jefferson or One Detroit does.

[cramerro]

Just me or does this building have a Picasso-ish/ Tiki God/Easter Island face thing going on?

I just realized... why does it not join a common wall with Cadillac to the east? I wasn't totally onboard with this being lazy, but Jason's points are pretty valid. I'm not saying it has to be historical looking, but at least 'nice' would be a plus, and something that takes advantage of the site rather than finding the right footprint in the 'office tower templates' handbook that can fit the property if turned just right.

[bailey]

Yeah it definitely is trying to use objects to balance out the mass in a way that is asymmetrical. I think it is probably a reaction to the overly symmetrical Compuware next door.

It's not the asymmetry .. I'm talking about how it looks like a cartoon character from Disney's next anthropomorphic cartoon: "Buildings".

[Armin]

It's not the asymmetry .. I'm talking about how it looks like a cartoon character from Disney's next anthropomorphic cartoon: "Buildings".

I never saw the face in the building until you pointed that out. Now I can't see anything else besides the face when I look at the renderings. LOL

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I never saw the face in the building until you pointed that out. Now I can't see anything else besides the face when I look at the renderings. LOL

Exactly what I was going to stay. Its looking at me now.....

I personally don't mind that the building is squared off at the corner and does not come all they way out to the street, but I do agree that it would be nice if it abutted the Cadillac Square building. And how hard would that be to do????

I do like this image though, since it gives an idea on how Monroe will feel more "downtownish" with buildings on both sides of the street once again.

[Gorath]

Are we sure the building is being squared off or is it actually abutting the property line. This streets in this area seem to have been reconfigured so many times that I can't assume where the property lines are. Where the street is may not necessarily be down the middle of the public right of way. The existing surface parking lot may not have been required to follow the property line. But surely any structure must.

[casscorridor]

I don't care about the architecture, it doesn't need to be groundbreaking or pay homage to classical styles. Contemporary design is refreshing in many cases, especially in a city with almost no contemporary architecture. The problem is how the building is haphazardly placed on the lot. It looks like they picked a building out of a stock images collection and placed it down on a lot, without consideration of the shape of the lot, not to mention the adjacent buildings. Compuware is designed to embrace the circular Campus Martius, this building is like an ax trying to push its way through it. And what about that random triangular empty space next to the Cadillac tower? wtf is that?

[bailey]

Perhaps just a rumor... but from what I've heard from those with interests involved... this project has been "postponed" with no further information. Allegedly....Meridian is back to shopping in the burbs for more space instead of downtown....allegedly...

[1953]

From what we know about the family behind Meridian, that would seem highly speculative, unless they decided to build the thing in Grosse Pointe Park.

[bailey]

From what we know about the family behind Meridian, that would seem highly speculative, unless they decided to build the thing in Grosse Pointe Park.

Again...allegedly and from people who would/should know the scoop...but ...ALLEGEDLY... prior to the schostack deal they had identified space in Warren. I don't think their GPP activism and investment is linked to being in the CBD or Detroit Proper. The Cottons are building offices for themselves on the Hill in GPF.