Woodward Avenue Light Rail

[wolverine]

People ride around every day with dozens of parking tickets, without licenses, insurance, headlights, mufflers ... but somehow peeps is gonna know not to park next to the curb. OK ...

Exactly and even with strict enforcement, people still do it. Roads aren't to be shared. All modes should be totally separated when possible.

[Hermod]

When the buses arrived in Detroit is when all of the money left. By no means a coincidence that it followed the removal of the old streetcars.

"After that, therefore because of that" is a logical fallacy.

Motor coach service was provided by the DSR from its inception. By 1925, motor coach routes made up 20% of the DSR route mileage. People were still moving into Detroit. When the last streetcars ran in 1956, the loss of population from the 1950 peak was just a trickle.

[stasu1213]

I am beginning to lean toward specialty busses now. It will take too long for the light rail to get started. I wonder if Gilbert, Penske, and Karmanos would had invested in rapid busses or express busses that will go only from downtown to New Center to Miejers would they had came out saving more money. Maybe these busses would just accept passes only Then Woodward could stay like it is with the exception of a much needed repaving

[casscorridor]

All eyes are on extending the Woodward line [[known as M1 Rail) north toward 8 Mile and beyond. What is lost in the conversation is the east-west line that is necessary if we want to begin constructing a transit system. That east-west line will likely run along or near Michigan Ave on the west side and either Gratiot or Jefferson or both on the east side. This new line might share the same technology as the Woodward line or it will be a new form, or perhaps even the people mover. There is no reason why the PM can't be expanded beyond the fact that the downtown station platforms are so small, meaning that only two-car trains could run, thereby limiting ridership potential.

Longer-term transportation visioning is needed. What Detroit and the metropolitan region around it needs is a full-scale, comprehensive public transit system utilizing multiple modes of transit that are integrated into a whole. Commuter rail reaching suburbs and satellite towns/cities. Rapid transit lines stretching the length of the city and connecting Downtown to suburban employment hubs. Light-rail, street-car, and people mover lines within the urban core. Some form of rail transit connecting Downtown to Metro Airport. And of course, comprehensive bus service that connects to all modes and offers as close to door-to-door service as possible.

Unless there is a radical change in Federal policy, funding will need to come from local, regional or statewide tax millages or ballot initiatives. This, of course, requires a massive amount of education to counter the decades of setbacks and misinformation about transit and urban development in the Detroit region. Not impossible, but very, very hard to accomplish.

Short term goals of improved buses, and limited rail transit [[one streetcar line and one commuter rail line) are positive and should not be opposed outright. But we need to go way further than that if Detroit is truly going to be redeveloped in any real way, outside of Downtown. Hopefully, these small improvements will spark interests in expanding them into the rest of the city and region.

[professorscott]

What is lost in the conversation is the east-west line that is necessary if we want to begin constructing a transit system. That east-west line will likely run along or near Michigan Ave on the west side and either Gratiot or Jefferson or both on the east side.

The high-level planning for this started a few years ago. Actually there are likely to be at least three east-west lines, two to connect to M1 Rail and one further north to connect to the BRT and an eventual extension of M1 Rail [[which, by the way, will probably be in dedicated median lanes, because as you go further north it is physically possible to do it that way).

One - you hit it on the head - is going to be a Michigan-Gratiot route most likely; Gratiot has a much better chance of funding from Uncle Sugar than Jefferson. The other is Warren Avenue, basically the DDOT crosstown route more or less. North of Detroit it might be 9 Mile or it might be 12-ish mile serving downtown RO. All of us who've worked on this know that improved east-west service is necessary to make any Woodward improvements realize their full potential.

There is no reason why the PM can't be expanded...

There are unfortunately serious reasons why expanding the PM is a pipe dream. First of all, it is outrageously expensive, if it's even possible to expand it. Second, I don't see the Fed coming back to the table with money for such a system at this point. Things have changed and they aren't favoring these kinds of systems now.

Longer-term transportation visioning is needed. What Detroit and the metropolitan region around it needs is a full-scale, comprehensive public transit system utilizing multiple modes of transit that are integrated into a whole.

That is precisely the main task of the RTA. In order to pay for the needed improvements, you have to qualify for Federal money; we simply don't have the funds to pay for what we need locally. In order to do that, you have to do projects according to the FTA's standards and formulas, and they rely heavily on existing transit ridership. That, as you'd guess, severely limits where we can make improvements, and what kinds of improvements we can make, unless we work incrementally.

One of the things holding up the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail is that we could not qualify for Federal transit grants because the existing transit ridership between the two cities is zero. Western Wayne County's opt-out communities have made it impossible to provide just simple bus service so we could at least try to qualify. So that project has to be done without the pile of money that everyone else uses for such things. These are the things that force us to take a very measured and incremental approach, which nobody likes, but that is how it now works.

If we had made investments in transit in the 1980s and 1990s we would be in a much better position, but all we did was cut: commuter rail ended in the early 1980s; SMART and DDOT have had major service cuts from then to now. We are way behind, and it will take us a very long time to start to catch up, but the good news is that now at least we're trying.

[bailey]

There may as well not be any bus system at all. And what caused all of this in the first place, is that some people see themselves as being too good to ride the bus. Right or wrong, some people just see it that way. It is about connecting amenities, which the rail line will do along Woodward. When the buses arrived in Detroit is when all of the money left. By no means a coincidence that it followed the removal of the old streetcars.

It's a start. That's it. But it will provide a legitimate, trusted and safe way to move along Woodward. Something that hasn't existed in nearly 50 years.

Again, people keep saying that like the problems that are currently "scaring" people off the bus aren't going to happen on the trolley. I don't understand this logic.

[detmsp]

Again, people keep saying that like the problems that are currently "scaring" people off the bus aren't going to happen on the trolley. I don't understand this logic.

It might not make much sense, but I know a lot of people perfectly willing to take the light rail, but turn their nose up at the thought of taking a bus. Maybe it's because rail is generally on time? And when you have one line, you don't ever worry you're getting on the wrong line like you might worry with a bus.

[Newdetroit]

I actually lived in Long Beach Ca where there is a light rail that runs down the center of the street. It has been a curse! Business owners have complained about the adverse effects. To begin, it divided the road, second, there is a gigantic monstrous contraption running down the street, business are hurt as people on the other side driving cannot see store fronts on the other side of the street, and wait until you want to turn and go through the track or make a U turn.

I am all for a subway system however I have been against the light rail system. If Detroit were to come back, imagine busy buildings that won't be able to have cars or truck conducting deliveries because of this train running curbside. An underground subway should have built from downtown to the amtrak train depot in New Center. Or expand the people mover up John R to swing around to the Amtrak Station and then come back downtown down Second Avenue. You would have single mass transit system. Then the amtrak lines from New Center to Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Oakland Airport, and Pontiac could have been used. Just my opinion. But if you want to see the Long Beach light rail running through the center of the road, type in the following address:
1244 Long Beach Boulevard, Long Beach, CA

https://maps.google.com/maps

[hudkina]

I think an extension along Jefferson should be built before an extension north of Grand Blvd.

I would put stops at Brush, Rivard, St. Aubin, Chene, McDougall, Mt. Elliott, E Grand Blvd, Van Dyke, Crane, and a terminus at Cadillac Blvd [[they could even put a rail yard in Waterworks Park.)

BTW, I'd turn the East Jefferson/Grand Blvd intersection into a massive traffic circle with a 300 ft radius. The streetcar would travel underground for that portion with a below grade station that opens up to a plaza. The plaza could even have bike rentals, etc. for people who want to visit Belle Isle. I would surround the traffic circle with midrise mixed-use development [[Hotel, residential, office, retail, etc.) so that it can become a "center" of sorts for the East Riverfront.

It would make the Riverfront more attractive to developers looking to build residential towers, and workers looking to have easy access to downtown jobs.

[dtowncitylover]

I think an extension along Jefferson should be built before an extension north of Grand Blvd.

I would put stops at Brush, Rivard, St. Aubin, Chene, McDougall, Mt. Elliott, E Grand Blvd, Van Dyke, Crane, and a terminus at Cadillac Blvd [[they could even put a rail yard in Waterworks Park.)

BTW, I'd turn the East Jefferson/Grand Blvd intersection into a massive traffic circle with a 300 ft radius. The streetcar would travel underground for that portion with a below grade station that opens up to a plaza. The plaza could even have bike rentals, etc. for people who want to visit Belle Isle. I would surround the traffic circle with midrise mixed-use development [[Hotel, residential, office, retail, etc.) so that it can become a "center" of sorts for the East Riverfront.

It would make the Riverfront more attractive to developers looking to build residential towers, and workers looking to have easy access to downtown jobs.

This is all too logical and nice of a plan for us Detroiters, please take your good ideas and get out. Thanks

[professorscott]

I think an extension along Jefferson should be built before an extension north of Grand Blvd.

I would put stops at Brush, Rivard, St. Aubin, Chene, McDougall, Mt. Elliott, E Grand Blvd, Van Dyke, Crane, and a terminus at Cadillac Blvd [[they could even put a rail yard in Waterworks Park.)

BTW, I'd turn the East Jefferson/Grand Blvd intersection into a massive traffic circle with a 300 ft radius. The streetcar would travel underground for that portion with a below grade station that opens up to a plaza. The plaza could even have bike rentals, etc. for people who want to visit Belle Isle. I would surround the traffic circle with midrise mixed-use development [[Hotel, residential, office, retail, etc.) so that it can become a "center" of sorts for the East Riverfront.

It would make the Riverfront more attractive to developers looking to build residential towers, and workers looking to have easy access to downtown jobs.

I really like this and I hope you don't mind if I share it with some of the people involved. Grand Boulevard used to go under Jefferson to get to the bridge to the island so there isn't any infrastructure down there that would get in the way of such a plan. I don't know your actual name so I can't properly credit you for the idea, but this is really cool and logical.

[professorscott]

Just to be clear on the proposal, these are the station locations, starting with the terminus of the to be built M1 Rail Woodward line. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hermod]

The plaza could even have bike rentals, etc. for people who want to visit Belle Isle.

Why not free ponies to ride to Belle Isle and see the unicorns in the zoo?

[hudkina]

You of all people should know that ponies and unicorns don't get along very well.

[canuck]

You of all people should know that ponies and unicorns don't get along very well.

Let Hermod have his way. A bike rental seems highly improbable and delusional to him for Detroit. The naysayers need their bit of basking in fantasy too.

[esp1986]

Just to be clear on the proposal, these are the station locations, starting with the terminus of the to be built M1 Rail Woodward line. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Either East Jefferson or Michigan Ave. Those are the most densely populated corridors in the core of the city.

As much as it is important to have a viable regional system, it is also paramount that we have a viable system to serve the most densely populated parts of the city. I call it the Greater Downtown Area, or the area bound by Grand Boulevard.

That's where most of the city's amenities are. And the ultimate purpose of public transit is connecting people with amenities. East Jefferson has a lot of residential on the East Riverfront, just east of Belle Isle. Michigan Ave. obviously has Corktown and Mexican Village. Both are viable options to consider for expansion.

So while we try to build a regional system, also realize that demand is rapidly rising in the Greater Downtown Area. Rents are rapidly rising, sending many people outward looking for more affordable housing options in the Downtown Area, and leaving others without any affordable options for housing.

So, how do you connect Downtown to some of these areas? Duh, transit.

So, while we can dream of a regional transit system, which would be great, in the meantime, we should focus on serving the growing demand in the core of the city. If we let the demand grow the transit system organically, using millages to slowly grow the system outward, eventually, if demand persists, the suburbs may realize what they've been missing.

It's a long ways off, no doubt, but you have to start somewhere. And focusing on the strongest part of the city and connecting those areas is the first step.

[Hermod]

That's where most of the city's amenities are. And the ultimate purpose of public transit is connecting people with amenities.

Silly me, I always thought that the first and most important purpose of public transit was to connect worker's homes with their places of employment. The second purpose was to connect a family's home with the essentials of life [[shopping and medical appointments). Getting university students and yuppies from mid-town to downtown night clubs and back without getting a DUI would be way down on my list of priorities.

[ghettopalmetto]

Silly me, I always thought that the first and most important purpose of public transit was to connect worker's homes with their places of employment. The second purpose was to connect a family's home with the essentials of life [[shopping and medical appointments). Getting university students and yuppies from mid-town to downtown night clubs and back without getting a DUI would be way down on my list of priorities.

Who told you that? Below densities of about 7 residences per acre, even the lower forms of public transit [[i.e. buses) don't function too well.

What are you going to do--run buses to everyone's house, and hope people ride?

It ain't Detroit's fault that Oakland, Macomb, and Western Wayne counties built everything in an arrangement such that driving a personal automobile is the only realistic option for connecting a home with the "essentials" of life.

[Honky Tonk]

Who told you that? Below densities of about 7 residences per acre, even the lower forms of public transit [[i.e. buses) don't function too well.

What are you going to do--run buses to everyone's house, and hope people ride?

It ain't Detroit's fault that Oakland, Macomb, and Western Wayne counties built everything in an arrangement such that driving a personal automobile is the only realistic option for connecting a home with the "essentials" of life.

So then the Blight-Rail WILL stop @ everyone's home? And once again, it's the 'Burbs fault.

[esp1986]

Silly me, I always thought that the first and most important purpose of public transit was to connect worker's homes with their places of employment. The second purpose was to connect a family's home with the essentials of life [[shopping and medical appointments). Getting university students and yuppies from mid-town to downtown night clubs and back without getting a DUI would be way down on my list of priorities.

Too many people seem to think that we have to have an extensive network of mass transit that immediately connects with the farthest outlying suburbs. Transit is designed to best serve densely populated areas, which suburbs are not. So to have a bus go down Merriman in Livonia as compared with Woodward in Detroit is asinine. AND, since the suburbs are already on the fence about transit, since they are happy in their delusional auto-centric worlds, you're best off serving the densest areas of the city rather than trying to convince the suburbanites to use transit.

When the LRT was going to go to 8 Mile, everyone was up in arms saying that it needed to go into the suburbs. To have it stretch all the way to Birmingham, with no guarantee that anyone out there could be convinced to use it, is a waste of time and money. You may end up having only a handful of people riding it from the suburbs.

That's the point I'm trying to make, is that if you start small and let the demand and the system itself grow over time, you could have a much stronger system in the long-run. If it started as a 15-20 mile line with minimal ridership, it could end up being declared a failure from the start, and half of our state legislature would be clamoring to shut it down.

[ghettopalmetto]

So then the Blight-Rail WILL stop @ everyone's home? And once again, it's the 'Burbs fault.

No, nor was it ever intended to do so. But just because door-to-door express service isn't planned to cover every possible origin/destination pair in the region doesn't preclude constructing a rail line along Woodward, or even a larger transit network.

Transit doesn't work in most suburban communities, plain and simple. By and large, the web of potential suburban origins and destinations doesn't have a sufficient spatial arrangement [[i.e. density) to develop ridership. That's not a blame-game--that's just science.

[bailey]

That's the point I'm trying to make, is that if you start small and let the demand and the system itself grow over time, you could have a much stronger system in the long-run. If it started as a 15-20 mile line with minimal ridership, it could end up being declared a failure from the start, and half of our state legislature would be clamoring to shut it down.

The point the others are trying to make is that there is now a demand the region come up with funding for the stupidest fucking transit option out there and ti's going to be based on 3 miles of trolly and shit load of buses dressed up to look like trains all running at the curb and in traffic.

This may not be PM II in function, but in reality its going to have the same effect on transit funding and attitudes.

[Honky Tonk]

No, nor was it ever intended to do so. But just because door-to-door express service isn't planned to cover every possible origin/destination pair in the region doesn't preclude constructing a rail line along Woodward, or even a larger transit network.

Transit doesn't work in most suburban communities, plain and simple. By and large, the web of potential suburban origins and destinations doesn't have a sufficient spatial arrangement [[i.e. density) to develop ridership. That's not a blame-game--that's just science.

It doesn't need to cover EVERY possible origin/destination, but it makes more sense to me to walk 2 blocks to a reliable bus stop, then to drive downtown, park and lock the car, then get on the train.

[esp1986]

The point the others are trying to make is that there is now a demand the region come up with funding for the stupidest fucking transit option out there and ti's going to be based on 3 miles of trolly and shit load of buses dressed up to look like trains all running at the curb and in traffic.

This may not be PM II in function, but in reality its going to have the same effect on transit funding and attitudes.

Um. No. The funding question right now is for Bus Rapid Transit. Which will have to face voters. My hope is that it passes, but I don't see that happening the first time around.

If it fails, we should focus on the LRT line, which could potentially be funded through local millages in the areas in which it runs. I don't know for sure what Michigan law would allow, but the CTA in Chicago has funding millages for the areas surrounding CTA lines. Recently, one area found that they weren't technically in the area of a line, but they were paying the millage. They fought it in court and won. Thus, the Red Line is being expanded rather than refunding the millages in that part of town. Long story short, parts of the city could be subjected to a millage rather than the whole city.

In ten years, we will know a lot of the effects of the LRT. If it is successful, people will be clamoring for expansion. Either up Woodward, or out other arteries. At that point, funding can be addressed in those locales, and a tax could potentially be levied in certain areas, or something else may have to be figured out.

But the levy currently in question would be a general funding for the RTA, which would allow for matching funds for the BRT line. Additional funding for LRT would likely be more substantial.

[hudkina]

It doesn't need to cover EVERY possible origin/destination, but it makes more sense to me to walk 2 blocks to a reliable bus stop, then to drive downtown, park and lock the car, then get on the train.

If that's the case then maybe you should move downtown so that you can walk 2 blocks to the train...

The point of this streetcar isn't to get suburbanites in Royal Oak to hop on a train and be downtown in 20 minutes. The point of this streetcar is to get the people who want to live, work, and play in the downtown core an easy, reliable, car-free option to get around.

That's why I think it is pointless for now to extend the line up to 8 mile and beyond. In my own fantasy, I would have the Woodward line terminate in Highland Park at the Model T Plaza. [[If people want to use that as a Park and Ride spot, so be it.) That means that the extension north of Grand Blvd would only cover another 3 miles with stops at Seward, Holbrook, West Chicago, Woodland, Glendale, and Manchester.

Phase 1 - Woodward from Jefferson to Grand Blvd. ~3 miles
Phase 2 - E Jefferson from Woodward to Cadillac Blvd. ~4 miles
Phase 3 - Michigan/Vernor Hwy from Woodward to Lawndale St. ~5 miles
Phase 4 - Woodward extension from Grand Blvd to Manchester Blvd. ~3 miles

Having an extensive inner-city streetcar system will go a long way in attracting and retaining people and businesses to the downtown core. Once the core has reached a critical mass of residents and jobs, then we can start discussing true rapid transit that connects the suburbs to the core. While commuter rail should obviously be the first step, rapid transit along the major corridors would be a good second step.