Detroit is never going to "come back"

[Hermod]

Well, that's a bit before my time. If things were bad for many in the 80s, and you're telling me it was also bad in the 60s and 70s [[plus really bad now) I guess we knew the truth all along: things have been crap since the 1950s - everywhere, not just in Detroit. Why expect it to come back anytime soon? [[Although I hope it does, and it seems to be.)

Not talking about Detroit, talking about the whole US. For those of us who lived through the 70s "misery index" [[unemployment rate + inflation rate + mortgage interest rate), the Reagan years of the 80s were leading us to the "shining city on the hill". Carter used the "misery index" to beat up on Ford during the 1976 campaign and when 1980 came along and he was running for re-election, the index was worse than 1976.

[dtowncitylover]

Did anybody live through the very, very dismal Ford and Carter years of the 1970s? Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were a reaction to the collapse in the 1970s of all the social and economic "planning" of the 1960s.

Then he told us we can live like kings and queens with the swipe of a credit card. And here we are today.

[dtowncitylover]

Also this whole thread reminds me of a great Mean Girls quote, and let me paraphrase:

"Stop trying to make Detroit happen, it's not going to happen!"

[Scottathew]

When it comes to suburban white racism and classism, I tend to agree. A lot of that type of upbringing is unintentionally passed down. The current parents were raised that way by their own parents, and so this must be the way that it's done.

Funny but true. As a white kid growing up in Clawson I was pretty much taught that black people are bad and are to be avoided. My world ended at 8-Mile, we never went into the city for anything.

Now that I work downtown I've been rubbing off on my parents, making them less afraid of Detroit and black people.

Racism is fading, but it's not going to take years, it's going to take generations.

[canuck]

Did anybody live through the very, very dismal Ford and Carter years of the 1970s? Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were a reaction to the collapse in the 1970s of all the social and economic "planning" of the 1960s.

So much more money was spent on Vietnam and the cold war apparatus than on social planning. The Carter and Ford years were dismal because of the end of the Vietnam debacle was not as Marvel and DC comics would have planned it, and maybe a little Watergate had an effect on the general mood. The oil crisis was a warning that was not so much heeded as speedily dispatched by Reaganauts.

[night-timer]

Not talking about Detroit, talking about the whole US. For those of us who lived through the 70s "misery index" [[unemployment rate + inflation rate + mortgage interest rate), the Reagan years of the 80s were leading us to the "shining city on the hill". Carter used the "misery index" to beat up on Ford during the 1976 campaign and when 1980 came along and he was running for re-election, the index was worse than 1976.

Agreed that sometimes this forum is very 'Detroit-centric' although I can understand why, under the circumstances. Maybe things won't change at a local level unless the bigger picture across the nation gets addressed? Detroit is just an extreme example, large tracts of blight juxtaposed with the constant visual reminder of the city's landscape/skyline of once-majestic buildings.

[Chinman]

what some of you do not know or realize is that Detroit is the largest city by sq miles. it is not sustainable by any means. during our good-times and growing times...detroit annexed every little town around...then hard times hit and now detroit must support them. bad planning at the start. not a black / white thing but a government thing!

[old guy]

You Can't Go Home Again
Thomas Wolfe

[ThosWolfe]

You Can't Go Home Again
Thomas Wolfe

" " " [[ what old guy said ... )

[mwilbert]

what some of you do not know or realize is that Detroit is the largest city by sq miles.

It is a good thing that people do not know that because it isn't true.

[motz]

These are all pretty widely known facts. Detroit 33% HS dropout rate, nationally 75% African American single-parent household rate [[compared to 25% for others), since everything is worse is Detroit it probably closer to 90% than 75%. Single parent rate was apparently single digits in the 50s and 60s. Crazy.

So you're making up statistics exactly how you always do every time you bash Detroit? Its really tiring to see you post how terrible Detroit is and then make up your own numbers to support your arguments.

[48009]

So you're making up statistics exactly how you always do every time you bash Detroit? Its really tiring to see you post how terrible Detroit is and then make up your own numbers to support your arguments.

"Detroit ranks No.1 in unmarried births among the nation’s 50 largest cities."

And according to today's Freep, "Only 1 in 13 African Americans at Wayne St obtain a bachelors in 6 years."

Yup, just baseless bashing. Ignoring the facts, or attacking those who highlight that Detroit has a culture problem doesn't make it go away. Uneducated and poor women having babies they shouldn't + Uneducated and poor men running away from responsibilities = Hopeless children facing unbeatable odds to succeed.

[noise]

I know 48009 is just a troll, but are all African Americans at Wayne State from Detroit? Do all African Americans from Detroit attend Wayne State? Do any of them take longer than 6 years to graduate?

[bailey]

I know 48009 is just a troll, but are all African Americans at Wayne State from Detroit? Do all African Americans from Detroit attend Wayne State? Do any of them take longer than 6 years to graduate?

I think the problem with your question is that it sort of focuses on irrelevant issues. It doesn't matter where AAs come from... only 1 in 13 are getting what should be a 4 year degree in 6 years [[if ever). Of the State Schools, WSU has the worst grad rate [[8%) for AAs and the largest gap between white and black grad rates....and something like double the national average. Its atrocious. and it's saddling kids who likely should not be there with another burden of non dischargeable student loans.

[noise]

I think the problem with your question is that it sort of focuses on irrelevant issues. It doesn't matter where AAs come from... only 1 in 13 are getting what should be a 4 year degree in 6 years [[if ever). Of the State Schools, WSU has the worst grad rate [[8.6%) for AAs and the largest gap between white and black grad rates....and something like double the national average. Its atrotious. and it's saddling kids who likely should not be there with another burden of non discharge-bale student loans

I think the problem with your post is that the issues you've mentioned are completely irrelevant to this thread and the point the troll was unsuccessful in making.

[bailey]

I think the problem with your post is that the issues you've mentioned are completely irrelevant to this thread and the point the troll was unsuccessful in making.

Ok... let me try again... you said:

I know 48009 is just a troll, but are all African Americans at Wayne State from Detroit?

statistically? highly probable the vast majority are. WSU draws 90% from in-state and Detroit is where the vast majority of blacks live in this state. WSU's is allegedly dedicated to the renewal, prosperity and well- being of Detroit and Michigan. I'm sure WSU has the stat somewhere, but I'd be surprised to find that DPS/Detroit isn't the largest single feeder of blacks to WSU.

what is your point? the black kid from troy is bringing down the curve?

Do all African Americans from Detroit attend Wayne State?

No, clearly. However, as the article and the study points out, regardless of where they go, a staggering amount don't graduate.

Do any of them take longer than 6 years to graduate?

does it matter? 6 yrs is the benchmark and WSU is the worst in the nation at meeting it when it comes to black students... and pretty awful when it comes to the rest. if Detroit is to "come back", its "premier urban university" needs to figure out how to actually accomplish its mission.

[48009]

I know 48009 is just a troll, but are all African Americans at Wayne State from Detroit? Do all African Americans from Detroit attend Wayne State? Do any of them take longer than 6 years to graduate?

I'm a troll because I bring up uncomfortable issues? I have developed a care and interest in the city and region of Metro Detroit. I'm not wasting my time here to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to spark constructive conversation. Without a culture change in Detroit, the city is forever doomed.

[TKshreve]

I'm a troll because I bring up uncomfortable issues? I have developed a care and interest in the city and region of Metro Detroit. I'm not wasting my time here to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to spark constructive conversation. Without a culture change in Detroit, the city is forever doomed.

Relax 48009. It's very common here at DYes to not to take topics like this seriously - or debate them with an open mind. It's a culture thing.

[noise]

Ok... let me try again... you said: statistically? highly probable the vast majority are. WSU draws 90% from in-state and Detroit is where the vast majority of blacks live in this state. WSU's is allegedly dedicated to the renewal, prosperity and well- being of Detroit and Michigan. I'm sure WSU has the stat somewhere, but I'd be surprised to find that DPS/Detroit isn't the largest single feeder of blacks to WSU.

what is your point? the black kid from troy is bringing down the curve?

No, clearly. However, as the article and the study points out, regardless of where they go, a staggering amount don't graduate.

does it matter? 6 yrs is the benchmark and WSU is the worst in the nation at meeting it when it comes to black students... and pretty awful when it comes to the rest. if Detroit is to "come back", its "premier urban university" needs to figure out how to actually accomplish its mission.

Holy cow. What does WSU have to do with the original point again?

[noise]

I'm a troll because I bring up uncomfortable issues? I have developed a care and interest in the city and region of Metro Detroit. I'm not wasting my time here to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to spark constructive conversation. Without a culture change in Detroit, the city is forever doomed.

These issues aren't uncomfortable. You're a troll because you continue to pursue symptoms as a cause.

[48009]

Holy cow. What does WSU have to do with the original point again?

...because WSU lets in these illiterate and/or unmotivated Detroit adults by the thousands every semester. They cash refund checks for a few years, leave without a diploma & tens of thousands in debt, make a baby or two and the cycle repeats itself in another 18 years.

In short, Wayne's statistics just reinforce the culture problem in the city.

[noise]

...because WSU lets in these illiterate and/or unmotivated adults by the thousands every semester. They cash refund checks for a few years, make a baby or two and the cycle repeats itself in another 18 years.

Not admitting them would solve the problems you've described? That's a strange thought.

Maybe if the parenting was good and the high schools were good, WSU would have a higher graduation rate. What's the source of the problem again?

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, it's a little bombastic to come onto DetroitYES! with an armload of opinions as opposed to a handful of questions. But as somebody who has expressed an opinion or two [[oh, brother, have I), I think it's fair to say you can't fault 48009 for how he goes about things. Maybe it's our way of dealing with things, just taking our ideas and throwing them into the demolition derby of debate instead of couching our opinions in facetious questions.

Speaking of which, a friend of mine made a new pal, somebody from San Francisco or the Bay Area or thereabouts. His take on Detroit was that he had never seen a place where people were so free with their opinions, which were all very strong. He said he was taken aback, although he claims he quite likes it now.

All that said, I think maybe 48009 and some other posters who line up behind 48009 seem to think that this society is a true meritocracy. That those who work hard rise to the top and those who shirk their responsibilities sink to the bottom. I think that is the fundamental question here: Is that so?

I tend to think that life was never as neat as those rags-to-riches stories we've been raised on. And that it's less true each year.

I mean, isn't it possible that somebody can be born with the will to succeed and 1,000 strikes against them and ... fail? And isn't it also possible that a person with no guts or drive or will can be born on third base and ... score on a walk?

And if that's true, what's the way forward?

[noise]

Having strong opinions isn't a problem. Having those opinions and ignoring the reasons they're flawed is a problem.

[48009]

Not admitting them would solve the problems you've described? That's a strange thought.

Maybe if the parenting was good and the high schools were good, WSU would have a higher graduation rate. What's the source of the problem again?

As far as I'm concerned most of them should be put back through 7-12th again. What do you think K-12 is for? It's 13 YEARS of preparation for college. You have non-blacks coming into college more prepared, on average, and leaving with diplomas at a higher clip. You have blacks coming in vastly unprepared and leaving without diplomas, saddled with debt and no job prospects. If you didn't take K-12 seriously you're YEARS behind the eight ball, requiring exponentially MORE effort once you get into college. The stats show blacks are not putting the effort in. Some of them can't, others just don't care. Trying to blame the "system" is helping nobody. This is a culture problem first and foremost.