Suburbs are unsustainable?

[ghettopalmetto]

So long as suburbs, even those far outlying, have functioning infrastructures, they are sustainable. Beyond that, with "infilling" there is now a competitive environment for the suburbs in the central city. The recent suburban "town center" movement, using new construction to create walking and interacting retail and social environments with housing in buildings upper floors, can be replicated in urban areas. They can be integrated into the remains of existing neighborhoods, such as Brush Park, to incorporate compatible designs into an overall thematic scheme.

Of course, all it takes is money and political will.

This is a silly post. I think you're well-intentioned, but it doesn't seem that you've thought this through completely. Allow me to explain.

The definition of "sustainability" demands that growth is able to cover the costs of the infrastructure required to support that growth, and that such infrastructure is simultaneously capable of handling that growth. We see much evidence to the contrary in Southeast Michigan. Who do you think pays for the roads? The new school buildings that are required? The sewer lines? Are we to believe that owners of homes in new subdivisions pay these costs out-of-pocket?

At the same time, you have a road network that is easily overwhelmed in the outer areas, and under-utilized infrastructure toward the urban core. Is this the most efficient use of resources? The mere presence of infrastructure does not imply sustainability--someone has to construct that infrastructure in the first place!

The idea that the "suburban town center movement can be replicated in cities" is misguided. The creation of faux town centers [[i.e. plastic malls with a different spatial arrangement) in the suburbs is simply a poor attempt at replicating a true urban environment--you know, the kind of mixed-use zoning that used to exist before World War II. I personally don't believe in "thematic schemes", but I do think that we're going to see a lot more mixed-use properties in the future, IF zoning regulations are altered to allow it. As it stands, we're seeing farms become "town centers", while the City of Detroit destroys urbanity to build strip malls and large drive-in, drive-out venues.

[Rockin' Best]

In response to: "The creation of faux town centers [[i.e. plastic malls with a different spatial arrangement) in the suburbs is simply a poor attempt at replicating a true urban environment--you know, the kind of mixed-use zoning that used to exist before World War II."

These "town centers" are not "faux" or "plastic" at all. Not to the stores and restaurants that move to them and thrive, nor to the people who buy residences, some rather pricey, within these developments. In the DC metro area where I now live, there are multiple examples of where these centers have turned around an area and brought new vitality [[and tax revenue). They are also sited in areas where infrastructure [[roads, utilities, et al) is already well established, which makes more sense to many than ripping up more agrarian space on the outskirts of the city.

Would it be preferable to critics that swaths of the city of Detroit remain essentially abandoned? What are their own plans to address that?

[ghettopalmetto]

These "town centers" are not "faux" or "plastic" at all. Not to the stores and restaurants that move to them and thrive, nor to the people who buy residences, some rather pricey, within these developments. In the DC metro area where I now live, there are multiple examples of where these centers have turned around an area and brought new vitality [[and tax revenue). They are also sited in areas where infrastructure [[roads, utilities, et al) is already well established, which makes more sense to many than ripping up more agrarian space on the outskirts of the city.

You may think these town centers "work", but it's clear that they are not, in fact, the traditional town centers that were constructed before World War II. Look at the Market Common in Clarendon. Where are the civic buildings? There is no town hall, no courthouse, no library, no post office, no public buildings of any sort, and no public park. Where are the independently-owned stores, the diners and coffee shops? The entire development is privately-owned and filled with high-end chain retail. And if you think those few dozen apartments on that site can support the regional shopping center above which they sit, you're out of your fucking gourd. The residential development in that area has a lot more to do with the Metro station and proximity to the District than the jive plastic outdoor shopping mall.

An Apple Store, Whole Foods, and Crate and Barrel do not a neighborhood make.

[Rockin' Best]

"Look at the Market Common in Clarendon. Where are the civic buildings? There is no town hall, no courthouse, no library, no post office, no public buildings of any sort, and no public park. Where are the independently-owned stores, the diners and coffee shops? The entire development is privately-owned and filled with high-end chain retail. And if you think those few dozen apartments on that site can support the regional shopping center above which they sit, you're out of your fucking gourd."

Since you're aware of the DC metro area, come take a close look at Rockville Town Center in Rockville, MD. Here you will indeed find an integration of both chain and idependently owned shops and services along with adjacent or nearly adjacent civic buildings [[government center, post office, fire station, and a brand new library.) Yes, it is close to the Rockville Metro station. In a metro area with traffic congestion rated the second worst in the nation [[behind Los Angeles), anything within walking distance of the subway has become very desirable. That only helps guarantee the success of the redevelopment. A good thing, most would say.

I cannot account for Clarendon and how that redevelopment was done. I have, however, watched Rockville attempt three redevelopments over the past twenty years, the first two unsuccessful. This one, however, has done quite well. If you live in the DC area, come over some weekend, especially when there is an event, and see for yourself.

By the way, during my time in Detroit, I lived in the city. My house was on Chandler Park Drive, east of Cadieux, in the area that then was nicknamed "copper canyon" because so many police and fire personnel lived there. My wife and I loved being part of that well established and kept up neighborhood, and wish we had that house here in DC.

Regarding Detroit, I continue to see infill development as logical because it takes advantage of infrastructure elements already in-place, coupled with very attractive land acquisition costs. I've seen some of the new, upscale housing going up near the eastern city border, south of 8 Mile. If I were still living in the area, I'd be looking at them myself.

That is, if I didn't find something gorgeous in Boston-Edison.

[Downtown diva]

You may think these town centers "work", but it's clear that they are not, in fact, the traditional town centers that were constructed before World War II. Look at the Market Common in Clarendon. Where are the civic buildings? There is no town hall, no courthouse, no library, no post office, no public buildings of any sort, and no public park. Where are the independently-owned stores, the diners and coffee shops? The entire development is privately-owned and filled with high-end chain retail. And if you think those few dozen apartments on that site can support the regional shopping center above which they sit, you're out of your fucking gourd. The residential development in that area has a lot more to do with the Metro station and proximity to the District than the jive plastic outdoor shopping mall.

An Apple Store, Whole Foods, and Crate and Barrel do not a neighborhood make.

GP,

every time i go into my local Apple Store, My local WHole foods and my local Crate and Barrel, they are all full.

while suburban life isnt for you, there are over 4 million people in Metro Detroit who will disagree with you.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP,

every time i go into my local Apple Store, My local WHole foods and my local Crate and Barrel, they are all full.

while suburban life isnt for you, there are over 4 million people in Metro Detroit who will disagree with you.

There's nothing inherently wrong [[or suburban) with those stores. Just don't put a whole bunch of them together in a privately-owned outdoor mall configuration and call it a "town center". It's not. It's a shopping mall.

I agree that there are numerous opportunities for infill development in Detroit, and it should be done in cohesive, walkable manner. This is where long-term planning, vis-a-vis piecemeal development, would come in quite handy.

[iheartthed]

GP,

every time i go into my local Apple Store, My local WHole foods and my local Crate and Barrel, they are all full.

while suburban life isnt for you, there are over 4 million people in Metro Detroit who will disagree with you.

Eh, there are 8.4 million people in New York City who would disagree with you that suburban life is the holy grail of living. [[And there are more Whole Foods stores in Manhattan than there are in the entire state of Michigan.)

[ziggyselbin]

I don't get your point iheart. There are 18million in the greater nyc area. What does that mean? that some can not afford to live in the city? that they don't want to live in the city?

4 million people is not an insignificant number.

[iheartthed]

I don't get your point iheart. There are 18million in the greater nyc area. What does that mean? that some can not afford to live in the city? that they don't want to live in the city?

4 million people is not an insignificant number.

The point is that 4 million people is not as significant a number as she portrayed.

But to extend my point further, if Metro Detroit were such a hospitable place to live then why hasn't the metropolitan area grown in the past 40 years? The Metro isn't much bigger today than it was in 1970, while the population of the nation has doubled in the same amount of time. And the population in other parts of the country, with strong urban centers like NYC, have grown at a higher rate than Metro Detroit. New York City, with all of it's urban grittiness, is the largest it has ever been, and it's continuing to grow. Metro Detroit, with its suburbany wholesome goodness, is at best stagnant, but more likely shrinking. That's my point.

[bailey]

Metro Detroit, with its suburbany wholesome goodness, is at best stagnant, but more likely shrinking. That's my point.

If we in the metro detroit area were competitive with other regions, or made something that anyone wanted to buy without heavily discounting it....Detroit and the region would be growing regardless of Detroit's decline. Places like RO, B'ham and Dearborn would still be building pricey lofts and townhouses at a 10-1 [[versus Detroit) pace just like they were doing in the early 2000s.

But we are a region that depends on one segment of a dying sector. Has nothing to do with strong urban centers or being less "hospitable" [[however you decide to quantify it)...it has everything to do with strong and diversified economy.

[iheartthed]

If we in the metro detroit area were competitive with other regions, or made something that anyone wanted to buy without heavily discounting it....Detroit and the region would be growing regardless of Detroit's decline. Places like RO, B'ham and Dearborn would still be building pricey lofts and townhouses at a 10-1 [[versus Detroit) pace just like they were doing in the early 2000s.

But we are a region that depends on one segment of a dying sector. Has nothing to do with strong urban centers or being less "hospitable" [[however you decide to quantify it)...it has everything to do with strong and diversified economy.

I think Detroit is a region that sacrifices what can make it attractive in order to prop up a shrinking industry.

[RickBeall]

Downtown Diva wrote:
>>explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

A young couple might be to Detroit to take advantage of the great house prices. Instead of paying on a $120,000 mortgage, they might be able to buy a house for $4,500 cash, and use the extra money to pay for a private school for their kids, and have extra money to help propel them into where they will naturally have more money saved than their friends in the suburbs.

You could view housing prices in Detroit as a great opportunity.

[bailey]

Downtown Diva wrote:
>>explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

A young couple might be to Detroit to take advantage of the great house prices. Instead of paying on a $120,000 mortgage, they might be able to buy a house for $4,500 cash, and use the extra money to pay for a private school for their kids, and have extra money to help propel them into where they will naturally have more money saved than their friends in the suburbs.

You could view housing prices in Detroit as a great opportunity.

seriously? what sort of neighborhood is a $4500.00 home in?

[RickBeall]

One block may be blighted, the next one may be great, with great neighbors. When you pick your house, you are also picking your neighborhood..

[RickBeall]

>>explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

If the bread winner of the family works down town, he or she can change the commute time from 40 minutes to 10 minutes and spend more quality time with their family.

[2blocksaway]

and with all the money you save on your mortgage you can pay too high property taxes and private schools for the kids for 13 years.

[Bearinabox]

and with all the money you save on your mortgage you can pay too high property taxes and private schools for the kids for 13 years.

Some folks homeschool or send their kids to private schools because they want to, and would do so regardless of the quality of the school district in which they lived. I know a lot of families like that. Not rich snobby people, and not creationist nutjobs, just normal people who for whatever reason don't want to send their kids to public school. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for that, even if you live in a relatively well-regarded school district.

[2blocksaway]

Some folks homeschool or send their kids to private schools because they want to, and would do so regardless of the quality of the school district in which they lived. I know a lot of families like that. Not rich snobby people, and not creationist nutjobs, just normal people who for whatever reason don't want to send their kids to public school. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for that, even if you live in a relatively well-regarded school district.

So, why would they want to pay such high property taxes for services they will use but are crap in Detroit like police and fire with spotty response times, parks maintenance, snow plowing, etc..

[erichp77]

Wait, Detroit can't even keep their grass cut yet someone starts a thread asking if the Suburbs are unsustainable?!! Thank you. I needed a good laugh today. Take a drive down Van Dyke and you will see why the east side has a big rat problem.

I love Detroit, I really do. I was just walking around downtown today in awe of how far downtown has come around[[can't wait for the Kresge Building to be finished). Detroit dose have a couple of decent neighborhoods but all and all, until parents start raising there children better, the city government and school board finally gets booted, I'll take living in the inner ring suburbs any day.

[Detroit_ExPat]

I'll take living in the inner ring suburbs any day.

Me too. My snow gets plowed and my trash gets picked up. When there's the rare need for police or fire services, they actually show up -- promptly. My daughter can play outside without any drama. The schools are decent. When I walk out the door for work in the morning, my car is where I left it, unmolested. And nobody bums me for change or cigarettes on my way to or from my car.

I used to live in Detroit, throughout the 80's and the early 90's. You could not pay me to do so now. The biggest lie told in these parts is that the suburbs will die without Detroit, that Detroit is the center of the SE Michigan universe. I used to believe that, too. But the painful truth is, the suburbs do not need Detroit. Just look around.

Detroit, however, does need people to relocate there, pay taxes there, and spend money there. But, mostly, Detroit needs a majority of the existing residents to demand better, and to work for better. Detroit is dead. Something sustainable will not rise from the ruins without a lot of hard work and determination by its existing residents. As always, there are some wonderful people working their asses of in and for Detroit. There just aren't enough of them. And I just don't see that changing anytime soon. At least not on a large enough scale to mean anything.

[croweblack]

Wait, Detroit can't even keep their grass cut yet someone starts a thread asking if the Suburbs are unsustainable?!! Thank you. I needed a good laugh today. Take a drive down Van Dyke and you will see why the east side has a big rat problem.

I love Detroit, I really do. I was just walking around downtown today in awe of how far downtown has come around[[can't wait for the Kresge Building to be finished). Detroit dose have a couple of decent neighborhoods but all and all, until parents start raising there children better, the city government and school board finally gets booted, I'll take living in the inner ring suburbs any day.

I think it is fine if a couple of hipster doofus people want to tough it out in the ghetto but if they have children ya gotta feel for the kids. That their parents would voluntarily subject their kids to the trash, crime, horrible schools etc of detroit is mindboggling.

True stroy: There is a small school over by Steve's Soul Food on Grand River. The kids were playing outside and the grass hasn't been cut in so long that when they have recess you can barely see the kids running around!!
Go check it out it is on Heritage Place

Suburbs are unsustainable?

Really?

[Bearinabox]

So, why would they want to pay such high property taxes for services they will use but are crap in Detroit like police and fire with spotty response times, parks maintenance, snow plowing, etc..

That's for them to decide. Each individual family needs to weigh out the positives and negatives for themselves, and then make a decision about where to live that makes sense given their priorities. I offered a reason why some families might not consider it a high priority to live in a good school district. Not caring about school districts is not, in and of itself, a reason to move to Detroit, but it could tip the balance for someone who would otherwise be on the fence.

This is a long thread. If you sincerely, honestly just want to know why some people choose to live in Detroit, there is probably plenty of material here for you [[I haven't read the whole thing, and don't plan on it). If all you want to do is disparage people whose priorities don't align with yours, and who consequently have chosen to live their lives in ways you don't understand or agree with, I have nothing further to say to you.

[Bearinabox]

I think it is fine if a couple of hipster doofus people want to tough it out in the ghetto but if they have children ya gotta feel for the kids.

No ya don't gotta. Minding your own business is also an option.

[RickBeall]

>>I think it is fine if a couple of hipster doofus people want to tough it out in the ghetto

Obviously it requires a bit of creativity to tip the situation so the negatives become opportunities. Also, it also requires a bit of "settler spirit" to reap the rewards. I can't imagine those early French settlers bringing their families into an area filled with potentially dangerous Inidians! What were they thinking? I mean, the schools!

[croweblack]

No ya don't gotta. Minding your own business is also an option.

sorry " you have to feel for the kids"

You know you have tapped into something when the grammar police come out instead of pointing out the flaws in my opinion



Thanks