A Rail Line From Detroit To Ann Arbor Is Right In Front Of Our Faces

[royce]

While reading the "Where Detroit Transportation Goes From Here?" thread, someone mentioned that the hold up with a commuter line to and from Detroit and Ann Arbor deals with the freight lines not making tracks available to passenger trains. On this forum several years back I brought up the idea that some of our freeways could allow commuter train traffic.

On almost a daily basis, I travel from the westside of Detroit to Downtown and to the eastside of Detroit using the Jeffries [[I-96) and the Fisher [[I-75) freeways. On a few occasions recently I have traveled to Ann Arbor using I-96 to M14. Given the fact that the Jeffries for a good portion is wider than the Grand Canyon, it would seem possible that a commuter train could actually fit in the left lane of the Jeffries and continue along the Fisher [[which is also very wide) and stop in Downtown Detroit at Woodward. Another commuter train could travel from that spot to Ann Arbor using the Fisher to the Jeffries to M14 and ending on Main Street, at say Liberty.

Obviously M14 would have to be widened and the commuter train would have to become a subway under Main Street to make that portion of the route work, but given the fact that it's taking forever to get a rail line going on regular rail lines, maybe this far-out there idea might make sense sooner than waiting for forever. In my opinion, freeways like the Jeffries, Fisher, Reuther, and Chrysler could be the answer to "rail rapid transit." One day when the world runs out of gas, the freeways maybe exactly where you'll put the new rail lines. Something to think about.

[renf]

Some progress is being made on the commuter rail project that will link Ann Arbor to the employment centers in downtown Detroit. The state of Michigan now owns the former Michigan Central tracks from Wayne west to Ann Arbor and on to K-Zoo. This summer work is underway to improve those tracks for higher speed trains. Work to improve the access of trains to the present depot on Baltimore in the New Center neighborhood has also been funded. This will reduce the Ann Arbor Detroit travel time by some minutes.
The state owns the rail cars that will be used in this forthcoming commuter service. They will be on display this week-end at the Ypsilanti Michigan Central depot in that city's Depottown neighborhood. This is one component of the Ypsi Heritage Fest.

[DetroitPlanner]

Some progress is being made on the commuter rail project that will link Ann Arbor to the employment centers in downtown Detroit. The state of Michigan now owns the former Michigan Central tracks from Wayne west to Ann Arbor and on to K-Zoo. This summer work is underway to improve those tracks for higher speed trains. Work to improve the access of trains to the present depot on Baltimore in the New Center neighborhood has also been funded. This will reduce the Ann Arbor Detroit travel time by some minutes.
The state owns the rail cars that will be used in this forthcoming commuter service. They will be on display this week-end at the Ypsilanti Michigan Central depot in that city's Depottown neighborhood. This is one component of the Ypsi Heritage Fest.

Thanks for bringing this up. There already is a proposed line that will link Wayne State, U of M Dearborn, EMU, Greenfield Village/the Henry Ford, Metro Airport shuttle, and U of M. Much of the capital cost has been spent on it, with a new station going up for Dearborn between U of M and Greenfield Village.

The only issue that we have is with operations. There is no funding sources available at the State or Federal level that covers these costs. Since the service is not part of SMART, DDOT, or AATA we cannot tap those for operating either [[even if we could it would mean even more service cuts to the bus systems, so that is not a viable solution).

Both MDOT and SEMCOG have videos online explaining the route and its service.
http://www.heritage.com/articles/201...mode=fullstory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diybaOkp1mU

[iheartthed]

I don't think you'd have to widen M-14 to put in a commuter rail line. The clearing between the roadway and the buildings are pretty wide on both sides of the highway. Same goes for running it alongside I-94. The biggest obstacle to putting in a commuter line between Detroit and Ann Arbor is gathering the political support for it.

[Spartan]

A rail from Detroit to Ann Arbor wouldn't make much sense without going by the airport.

[Detroitnerd]

I have very serious doubts about the benefits of laying heavy rail along highway right-of-way. You are trying to mix one mode that promotes density with another mode that doesn't and which takes up precious space and which people do not want to live next to.

For more along these lines, see:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...Freeways/page2

[iheartthed]

I have very serious doubts about the benefits of laying heavy rail along highway right-of-way. You are trying to mix one mode that promotes density with another mode that doesn't and which takes up precious space and which people do not want to live next to.

For more along these lines, see:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...Freeways/page2

Well, commuter rail systems are meant to connect lower density areas with high density hubs, so I don't think it would be much of a problem. The line shouldn't have more than 10 or so stops between Detroit and Ann Arbor if it's going to be an efficient alternative to driving.

Also, as Spartan said, this really needs to connect Detroit and Ann Arbor to the airport. That actually should be the primary focus since both cities need to a rail connection to the airport more than anything else.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, commuter rail systems are meant to connect lower density areas with high density hubs, so I don't think it would be much of a problem. The line shouldn't have more than 10 or so stops between Detroit and Ann Arbor if it's going to be an efficient alternative to driving.

OK, so you have your rail stop serving a low-density area in the middle of the freeway. How do you get people from a low-density area to walk to this station down in the freeway right-of-way? They drive there? Where do you put the big parking lot for the rail station?

Royce keeps posting this idea [[he started the thread last time) and, yes, it is done in some places, like Chicago. But trying to shoehorn one mode, with all its benefits and drawbacks, into another mode, with all its different benefits and drawbacks, seems like an awful lot of wishful thinking. You're going to take people who would rather drive around a parking lot for 10 minutes to get 30 feet closer to a store entrance and ask them to walk a quarter mile to a train station? Or to transfer from a bus? I remain very skeptical, especially when it comes to shelling out money for new heavy rail construction when we already have heavy rail corridors.

[iheartthed]

OK, so you have your rail stop serving a low-density area in the middle of the freeway. How do you get people from a low-density area to walk to this station down in the freeway right-of-way? They drive there? Where do you put the big parking lot for the rail station?

Royce keeps posting this idea [[he started the thread last time) and, yes, it is done in some places, like Chicago. But trying to shoehorn one mode, with all its benefits and drawbacks, into another mode, with all its different benefits and drawbacks, seems like an awful lot of wishful thinking. You're going to take people who would rather drive around a parking lot for 10 minutes to get 30 feet closer to a store entrance and ask them to walk a quarter mile to a train station? Or to transfer from a bus? I remain very skeptical, especially when it comes to shelling out money for new heavy rail construction when we already have heavy rail corridors.

I wouldn't advocate putting it down the center of the freeway. But there is plenty of room along I-94 to put the tracks on one side or the other. Then building the stations and parking lots would be pretty simple from that point...

[royce]

OK, so you have your rail stop serving a low-density area in the middle of the freeway. How do you get people from a low-density area to walk to this station down in the freeway right-of-way? They drive there? Where do you put the big parking lot for the rail station?

Royce keeps posting this idea [[he started the thread last time) and, yes, it is done in some places, like Chicago. But trying to shoehorn one mode, with all its benefits and drawbacks, into another mode, with all its different benefits and drawbacks, seems like an awful lot of wishful thinking. You're going to take people who would rather drive around a parking lot for 10 minutes to get 30 feet closer to a store entrance and ask them to walk a quarter mile to a train station? Or to transfer from a bus? I remain very skeptical, especially when it comes to shelling out money for new heavy rail construction when we already have heavy rail corridors.

Detroitnerd, I think your thoughts are more about light rail transit than commuter rail transit. Essentially the commuter line on the freeway would go non-stop from Ann Arbor until it got to certain stops in Metro Detroit. Those stops would be park and ride stops basically, so density is not[[not now) the idea behind commuter rail on the freeways.


From Ann Arbor, the first stop in Metro Detroit would be in Livonia at Middlebelt and I-96. There's a former Wal-Mart parking lot that could be used for a park and ride site. The next stop would probably be at Telegraph, a non park and ride stop but definitely a feeder location. There is a housing complex and a shopping center in that area along with a dense neighborhood on both the east and west sides of Telegraph. After that, the commuter train would head downtown with no more stops until its ending at Woodward and the Fisher Freeway [[since I-96 parallels Grand River Avenue for a long stretch, there would be no need to have any stops south of Telegraph. As someone mentioned earlier, access to the commuter train would be no different than how people enter the El trains along the freeways it Chicago. Also, a concrete barrier would separate commuter rail traffic from auto traffic. The two would never mix with each other.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

A rail from Detroit to Ann Arbor wouldn't make much sense without going by the airport.

Agreed completely. I am not sure how much traffic this project will get, once it is up and running, but I am for giving it a try. Making practical stops is imperative, also tying in other transit options and several park & ride locations. The airport, I would imagine, would be the consistently busiest stop, serving both travellers to either AA or downtown, and also the thousands that work in and around the airport. I hope they somehow integrate a very functional stop there. The "BWI Airport" stop outiside Baltimore is not a good model. The station is served by MARC commuter rail and Amtrak trains. But wait for trains can be long; the trip from the terminal to the station is long and slow [[requiring a shuttle bus), and tickets are moderately expensive for MARC and outrageously expensive for Amtrak; they don't have any kind of integrated commuter pass. If they can make train to the airport competitive with driving, it might just work.

[professorscott]

The "BWI Airport" stop outiside Baltimore is not a good model. The station is served by MARC commuter rail and Amtrak trains. But wait for trains can be long; the trip from the terminal to the station is long and slow [[requiring a shuttle bus)...

The commuter rail that SEMCOG has been working on [[for years and years) unfortunately will have all of these characteristics. They are planning on just a small number of trains per day, mostly to serve peak-hour commuters, and there is no chance of the trains actually entering airport property. [[They will use existing track, except in midtown where some new track is being added because we can't have the service at all otherwise.)

I'm not saying the commuter rail won't serve a purpose; it certainly will, but it's not going to be like in cities where there is frequent train service directly from the airport into town.

[Hamtragedy]

What Spartan said.

[rex]

Would be nice if they would run something from Royal Oak to A2.

[Cliffy]

Would be nice if they would run something from Royal Oak to A2.

Amtrak already covers that route.

[professorscott]

For anyone interested, this recently showed up on SEMCOG's website:

"SEMCOG special event in Ypsilanti on August 16: Update on Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail service

The Executive Committee of SEMCOG, the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, will informally gather on Friday, August 16, 2013, for an update on the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter rail service. The event, beginning at 12:30 p.m., at the Ypsilanti Automotive Heritage Museum [[100 E. Cross Street, Ypsilanti, MI 48198), will include a progress report and the introduction of a new video on the service. Community leaders that will have stations along the soon-to-come commuter rail line will talk about the opportunities the stations will create for their communities. We will then walk a short distance from the museum to three train cars that will be used for the Ann Arbor to Detroit Commuter Rail service. Attendees will have the opportunity to get on board the train and experience the amenities of commuter rail – coming to our region soon! The City of Ypsilanti will also host a press conference at the train location following the SEMCOG meeting."

[DetroitPlanner]

For anyone interested, this recently showed up on SEMCOG's website:

"SEMCOG special event in Ypsilanti on August 16: Update on Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail service

It will be there all weekend.
http://annarbor.com/news/ypsilanti/s...live-@dt-river

[Detroitnerd]

If it comes right down to it: How about taking I-94, putting four railbeds down in it, two local, two express, and then covering it over, and putting a boulevard up above it. Seriously. Fuck I-94.

[poobert]

I was enjoying a plate of freedom fries, listening to the new Limp Bizkit album, still feeling thankful that we had a Mission Accomplished in Iraq. I was about to head to the theater to see Bad Boys II when I realized we lost power. I pulled my flip cell phone out of my cargo pants with 7 pockets but it wasn't working. I remember feeling dejected that I would miss One Tree Hill. Boom.

[Zug]

I was enjoying a plate of freedom fries, listening to the new Limp Bizkit album, still feeling thankful that we had a Mission Accomplished in Iraq. I was about to head to the theater to see Bad Boys II when I realized we lost power. I pulled my flip cell phone out of my cargo pants with 7 pockets but it wasn't working. I remember feeling dejected that I would miss One Tree Hill. Boom.

Wrong thread, but for some reason I really enjoyed reading it in the middle of this one. Lol. Freedom fries! 'Murica!

[wolverine]

The idea of running commuter rail down the middle of a freeway median would be difficult It wouldn't be serviceable like the CTA. Faster diesel commuter rail trains would need wider clearances and wider platforms and higher bridge clearances. Even with conventional LRT or urban rapid transit in center medians, cities have been dumping proposals for future heavy rail expansion in medians of expressways. As previous posters have mentioned, Chicago has these lines, but they are moving away from future proposals for rail expansion down the center of freeways or tollways. All the road and freeway projects starting over the next couple of years in Chicagoland will "rough in" accommodation for rail anyways but there are no plans to use them in the future. They will more likely be used for BRT in the interim. Commuter rail should run into downtowns. It's good for businesses and residential areas around the original cores of theses places. You need ample space though. Keep in mind these trains will be blazing through these towns at 80 mph.

[AuburnSpeedster]

I think what could work would be something along the line of a light-ish rail along Michigan Ave starting at the Rosa Parks Transit Center in downtown going to Ypsilanti and then changing course to Washtenaw Ave up to Ann Arbor [[with a detour somewhere along Michigan Ave going down to the airport.)

With that system you could have the trains drop people off right through the center of Detroit, Dearborn, Ypsilanti, the airport, Wayne, Ann Arbor, etc. You also hit busy areas such as downtowns and college campuses right off the path.

However, in the less dense areas it could travel at higher speeds to decrease travel time, while in denser areas it could go slower for safety.

[professorscott]

I think what could work would be something along the line of a light-ish rail along Michigan Ave starting at the Rosa Parks Transit Center in downtown going to Ypsilanti and then changing course to Washtenaw Ave up to Ann Arbor [[with a detour somewhere along Michigan Ave going down to the airport.)

With that system you could have the trains drop people off right through the center of Detroit, Dearborn, Ypsilanti, the airport, Wayne, Ann Arbor, etc. You also hit busy areas such as downtowns and college campuses right off the path.

However, in the less dense areas it could travel at higher speeds to decrease travel time, while in denser areas it could go slower for safety.

That's something we'd like to get to eventually, and if we could afford to pay for it ourselves we'd do it. We need to ask the Fed for money for such a project, though, but such an application would not be competitive because existing transit ridership on that line is not very high. This is partly because of all the opt-out communities in western Wayne County and partly because the Detroit part of the Michigan Avenue corridor has very low ridership [[compare the DDOT Michigan Avenue schedule with, say, Gratiot or even Dexter).


So we have to do this in baby steps: improve bus service such that the ridership increases, then apply for a grant to build light rail. Takes an unfortunately long time, but that's most likely how we'd have to proceed. In the meantime, if the commuter rail ever does actually start operating, that is also an opportunity to show increased ridership.

[tkelly1986]

Has anyone ever noticed that there is a rail line down Shook Road [[just west of the airport) that connects the rail line linking Ann Arbor and Detroit [[the one that parallels Michigan) and the rail line that runs adjacent to the Airport's north boundary? Thus, we should ask; could this line be used as a connector for rail? Could an Detroit bound train from Ann Arbor make a 3 mile detour to a station next to the airport on the northern tracks [[possibly at Merriman)? And visa verse with an Ann Arbor bound train from Detroit?

I, of course, am not sure who owns the Shook Road track, but this is simply an interesting observation.

[Downriviera]

Has anyone ever noticed that there is a rail line down Shook Road [[just west of the airport) that connects the rail line linking Ann Arbor and Detroit [[the one that parallels Michigan) and the rail line that runs adjacent to the Airport's north boundary? Thus, we should ask; could this line be used as a connector for rail? Could an Detroit bound train from Ann Arbor make a 3 mile detour to a station next to the airport on the northern tracks [[possibly at Merriman)? And visa verse with an Ann Arbor bound train from Detroit?

I, of course, am not sure who owns the Shook Road track, but this is simply an interesting observation.

The line down Shook Rd is the CSX Plymouth/Toledo line. It does intersect the Amtrak line near Michigan Ave in Wayne as well as the Norfolk Southern line just south of I94 in Romulus. The NS line runs north of Metro Airport from Melvindale yard to Ft. Wayne. This is an interesting idea, however there would have to be some major track reconfigurations. The other problem is the NS line is really busy with Canadian Pacific running their trains on it with trackage rights as well as all the NS trains.