LeDuff asks Kevyn Orr about 'dumb, lazy, happy and rich' remark

**Baselinepunk** · August-08-13, 11:36 PM

"Our expectation that every sentence ever uttered can be the end of someone's career just gets us sound-bites with no substance."

Ummm, I'm really interested in this group of people you seem to try and represent.

You really put your individual opinions about everything in this "we context"; like you're speaking for more than one person -- yourself. Is this BS act you put on supposed to be some sort of "self - reflection" exercises?

Unless you got a frog in one of yer pockets; you should probably stick to the first person from now, k?

BTW -- just what part of Detroit do you live in 24/7 and how long have you been there?

**Bobl** · August-09-13, 12:51 AM

I no longer pay attention to Charlie's antics. He is a caricature of a tabloid writer. Sad that the local TV station gives him the stage. It should not be all about Charlie, but all about facts.
Mr Orr is simply a tool. He is not out to win friends.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-09-13, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

...BTW -- just what part of Detroit do you live in 24/7 and how long have you been there?

Hamtramck last few years, Detroit lifelong before that. Do 'we' still count?

**Danny** · August-09-13, 05:52 AM

For once I agree with Kevyn Orr. Detroit has been dumb, lazy, happy and rich since Hazen S. Pingree years.

Detroiters, too had been dumb with their resources. Lazy when it comes to taking care of their own hoods, Happy with their black leaders in its city government and worshiping their images. And rich when it comes to borrowing money and not paying it back in full. Let's knock it off with this trend and put this city forward in order to catch up in the new age.

**Eber Brock Ward** · August-09-13, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

BTW -- just what part of Detroit do you live in 24/7 and how long have you been there?

I love the way you write this as if it's of any relevance.

P.S. - I was born here, live here now, and spent more time here than anywhere else. If someone's got a good idea or a bad idea, it's a good or bad idea on its merits and I don't care if they've never stepped foot in the city.

**Zacha341** · August-09-13, 09:17 AM

No. I don't agree with you on this. My parents, many uncles and aunts came to Detroit in the 50's and they were anything but lazy or dumb, and while they did not quite make it to rich status but they worked hard, purchased homes and raised their families well.

We all know Detroit was involved with corruption over the years including the days of prohibition, organized crime, etc. but that is not the the issue here.

As I said before Orr rolled out that old-timey 20's-30's dating for 'damage control' purposes. He didn't even look comfortable saying it, and only a few read it as a Pingree time reference. Not many Detroiters. Nor the audience he made the statements to.

Originally Posted by Danny

For once I agree with Kevyn Orr. Detroit has been dumb, lazy, happy and rich since Hazen S. Pingree years.

**Eber Brock Ward** · August-09-13, 09:43 AM

People can collectively be dumb, lazy, happy, and rich without even half of their individuals being the same.

We were collectively that. Most individuals were not that.

Not that complicated. Not sure why people are bringing up family anecdotes and stuff. My parents and grandparents sure weren't dumb, lazy, happy, and rich, but the things they [[and their cohorts) supported sure make them look like it in hindsite.

**Zacha341** · August-09-13, 09:47 AM

^^^ Compelling points. I chose to bring up specifics to mitigate the broad stroke, where it exists, possibly.

**jcole** · August-09-13, 09:51 AM

Here was his exact quote:

“For a long time the city was dumb, lazy, happy and rich,” he explains. “Detroit has been the center of more change in the 20th century than I dare say virtually any other city, but that wealth allowed us to have a covenant [that held] if you had an eighth grade education, you’ll get 30 years of a good job and a pension and great health care, but you don’t have to worry about what’s going to come.”

Not he says "was" not "is". Also, that covenant did hold for a long time in Detroit's history; that was the beauty of the auto companies. You could come from nowhere and become something. Times changed; Detroit didn't.

**sumas** · August-09-13, 10:52 AM

Interesting points from all.

I have no particular issues with Orr, although I don't much like Snyder. the EFM was done in a fit of pique. But things needed doing.

It is true that manufacturing jobs fueled Detroit and no particular skill sets required except for your position on the line. People made a decent living but no one got rich on the line.

I will posit though, that one of the problems of the big 3 lagging were in part due to national racism. My brother in law was hired into Chrysler in the 70's as a part of preferred treatment for Vietnam vets. His pay was a whopping $8.10 but at that time national news would say Detroit automotive workers were making $35. Granted they factored in benefits but that isn't what readers understood. They didn't want those blacks in Detroit making big money.They boycotted Detroit products big time. The imports benefited from that racism.

Oh and I like people discussing their folks and how they came here.

**Locke09** · August-09-13, 02:32 PM

I can only hope that people begin to realize that they have the obligation to scrutinize everyone who is in a position to affect their lives - everyone. If they then take objection to any words or actions of that person with power over them, they have a new obligation: to say something.

People understand this when it is a leader they oppose - like Kwame Kilpatrick. But they lose sight of this when it is their new Messiah. That is hypocrisy at worst and a lack of integrity in thinking at best.

No one is perfect, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it when imperfect people do something that we think is harmful, hurtful or just unwise.

Kevyn says more disparaging things about his "adversaries" than I have ever heard come out of the mouth of an educated professional who is supposed to be trying to negotiate with people. You never heard Kevyn say anything of this sort when he was working on Chrysler's bankruptcy. He was respectful the way you expect an officer of the court to be. He should remember that the bulk of his adversaries are just common people wanting to survive. They have a right to fight for their survival. If they have dependents, then they also have an obligation to do so. He can fight back, but he doesn't have to be so condescending. After all, those with the power can afford to be nice.

And he should lose the "I'm just one of you, eating Popeye's chicken out of the bucket, drinking NeHi soda on the porch and eating butter and sugar sandwiches in the segregated South" spiel. That's insulting too.

As someone born and raised in Detroit, whose life will be impacted by his actions, I reserve the right to critique him whenever I choose. I think he can stand the heat because I honestly don't think he cares what I think.

**Honky Tonk** · August-09-13, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

I can only hope that people begin to realize that they have the obligation to scrutinize everyone who is in a position to affect their lives - everyone. If they then take objection to any words or actions of that person with power over them, they have a new obligation: to say something.

People understand this when it is a leader they oppose - like Kwame Kilpatrick. But they lose sight of this when it is their new Messiah. That is hypocrisy at worst and a lack of integrity in thinking at best.

No one is perfect, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it when imperfect people do something that we think is harmful, hurtful or just unwise.

Kevyn says more disparaging things about his "adversaries" than I have ever heard come out of the mouth of an educated professional who is supposed to be trying to negotiate with people. You never heard Kevyn say anything of this sort when he was working on Chrysler's bankruptcy. He was respectful the way you expect an officer of the court to be. He should remember that the bulk of his adversaries are just common people wanting to survive. They have a right to fight for their survival. If they have dependents, then they also have an obligation to do so. He can fight back, but he doesn't have to be so condescending. After all, those with the power can afford to be nice.

And he should lose the "I'm just one of you, eating Popeye's chicken out of the bucket, drinking NeHi soda on the porch and eating butter and sugar sandwiches in the segregated South" spiel. That's insulting too.

As someone born and raised in Detroit, whose life will be impacted by his actions, I reserve the right to critique him whenever I choose. I think he can stand the heat because I honestly don't think he cares what I think.

You really don't like him, do you?

**Locke09** · August-09-13, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

You really don't like him, do you?

I'm glad you asked that question.

I truly neither like nor dislike Kevyn Orr.

I don't like flippant and condescending behavior when you think you have people over the barrel. That applies to lot's of people I run across and I challenge them on their behavior as well.

I don't like it when people think everyone who doesn't agree with them must be stupid or have nefarious motives. I find it ridiculous when people can't stand to hear an opinion that differs from theirs.

I don't like it when people have manipulated a process and then get dismissive when that manipulation is exposed.

I don't like it when people want others to roll over and play dead.

I could go on, but please note that most of what I don't like has nothing to do with Kevyn Orr, but the people who are so enamored of him that they brush aside every criticism.

And I'm not trying to be mean, but I really do wish he would stop with these stereotypical references to himself. They make me very uncomfortable.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-09-13, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

...Kevyn says more disparaging things about his "adversaries" than I have ever heard come out of the mouth of an educated professional who is supposed to be trying to negotiate with people. You never heard Kevyn say anything of this sort when he was working on Chrysler's bankruptcy. He was respectful the way you expect an officer of the court to be. He should remember that the bulk of his adversaries are just common people wanting to survive. They have a right to fight for their survival. ...

The adversaries here are the pension funds, pensioners, current employees, employee unions, creditors, and citizens [[as regards receiving services and paying taxes.)

Mr. Orr is not an adversary of any of them. His job, and what he's been doing is only to balance the needs and adversarial positions of those groups as fairly as possible -- since there's just not enough money to pay all of them. He's developing a plan. He's not an adversary. He's an agent of the law. I've seen no evidence that he isn't acting fairly yet. Have you?

You may doubt his integrity, purpose, demeanor, words, intentions or whatever you like -- but as to action, what has he done that hasn't been lawful and fair?

**Zacha341** · August-09-13, 05:18 PM

Hah! Yep. He needs to ditch that like NOW - No need to try to be a 'politician': kiss babies and scmooze the crowd with tales of fried chicken etc... or make like the uber hero to save the down-trodden.

Just proceed with the darn work -- with appropriate accountability, this and that and move on to the next stop.

Originally Posted by Locke09

...And he should lose the "I'm just one of you, eating Popeye's chicken out of the bucket, drinking NeHi soda on the porch and eating butter and sugar sandwiches in the segregated South" spiel. That's insulting too.

**noise** · August-09-13, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

PS -- I really think that this whole "we did this to ourselves" BS is misguided and is a red herring. The Socrates bit is a little old, too.

Well, it's certainly easier to blame somebody else than it is to accept some personal accountability.

**Lily** · August-09-13, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Foot: Not at all. He spoke the truth. He's quite right. The white power structure of Detroit back in the 30s-50s was dumb, lazy, happy, and rich. That's why we had riots and financial collapse.

But it does make a good sound bite to attack him when you take it out of context. Enjoy.

Brilliant: Doesn't matter. He's the boss now. Seems to be doing OK walking through a minefield. You'll probably think he's much less brillliant when he gets around to your ox.

As my son
would say............."just sayin". Why does everything have to be about race?

**gthomas** · August-09-13, 09:20 PM

Add Ficano to he "Dumb, Lazy, Happy, Rich" list! We need to get rid of these politicians now.

**Honky Tonk** · August-09-13, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lily

As my son
would say............."just sayin". Why does everything have to be about race?

"But we've ALWAYS done it that way!"

**Lily** · August-09-13, 10:27 PM

Maybe we need to review that engrained thought process a bit?

**professorscott** · August-09-13, 10:52 PM

I find this whole thread kind of amazing. The house is on fire, and we're worried that the firemen might have said something vaguely insulting [[if you are excessively thin-skinned) about us.

If Detroit has one huge cultural illness, it is that we think what people say about us is more important than what is actually happening.

I have news: it just effing doesn't matter what anyone says. We need to stop being whiny b****es and face reality.

And, by the way, Mr. Orr was exactly correct in identifying the root cause of the City's problem. We have sat on our asses for the last fifty years wondering when all the auto jobs would come back. I say fifty because I have a magazine article from 1961 lamenting a recent round of Chrysler layoffs.

**firstandten** · August-09-13, 11:11 PM

We get caught up in a statement that Orr makes which is essentially true. We still are focusing too much on the superficial. We have a political class in this city that gets A's for pandering, grandstanding, playing the us versus them card, coming up with the best conspiracy theories, corruption and on and on. They get F's for effective city governance. What these people don't realize is that when the governor has to take over your finances that has consequences just like the president when has says elections have consequences. So people want Orr to apologize... For What ? He probably should be calling our elected officials a bunch of incompetent nincompoops. Today he fired another of Bings appointees the director of public lighting. Poor guy trying to run a department that was underfunded and understaffed with a decimated infrastructure. You could probably say the same with just about every city department. We have all of this going on in our city and people want to focus on the fact that Orr insulted them. We need to get a grip, swallow our medicine as bitter as it might be, but more importantly get some people in office that won't give us the status quo.

**Locke09** · August-10-13, 09:18 AM

Anyone who has been in an executive position, or any position of leadership, knows that this idea that a person can say whatever they want as long as it's "true" and they are "geniuses" and "doing a great job" is nonsense.

Who are people trying to convince with this, "stop being thin-skinned", "stop whining", "stop scrutinizing every word", etc. stuff? Are they trying to convince others or themselves?

If you just want to be an administrator you can act like this. But if you truly want to be an intelligent leader you cannot behave in this manner. People need to be able to trust you and believe that you have their best interests at heart if you expect them to follow you.

I hope he never does call our elected officials incompetent nincompoops. Because if he's going to be calling names, even calling our elected officials names, then he isn't the right man for the job.

But like I said, Kevyn doesn't have to care. He doesn't have to be a "leader" because he has the power to do what he wants whether the people like it or not. He is an administrator.

By the way Mr. Mouch, since the American legal system is an adversarial system, then the creditors are Kevyn's adversaries. He as much as admits it himself when he talks about them bullying him by going to court.

I expect the EM to have a vocabulary that makes statements like "dumb and lazy" unnecessary and I will continue to expect this of him. If he doesn't care, it's because he doesn't have to care.

**Zacha341** · August-10-13, 09:21 AM

Awesome points with a grand closer!

Originally Posted by Locke09

....I expect the EM to have a vocabulary that makes statements like "dumb and lazy" unnecessary and I will continue to expect this of him. If he doesn't care, it's because he doesn't have to care.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-10-13, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

Anyone who has been in an executive position, or any position of leadership, knows that this idea that a person can say whatever they want as long as it's "true" and they are "geniuses" and "doing a great job" is nonsense.

Who are people trying to convince with this, "stop being thin-skinned", "stop whining", "stop scrutinizing every word", etc. stuff? Are they trying to convince others or themselves?

Locke, we can agree that they weren't the best words to use.

Orr was not trying to blame or offend. He was trying to explain how we got where we are, and what we can do differently so we do better in the future. These are also leadership qualities.

I can agree with you that he could have done better -- but am willing to accept some imperfection in his pursuit of good for Detroit. I don't ask that people stop whining - but I do ask that we not demand perfection. Kwame stole. DPS employees stole. Pension Trustees sold out pensioners. Bondholders and banks preyed. Politicians fed mistrust and racism. Orr made a poor choice of words in pursuit of a good.

When you focus on small things, you can miss the big ones. When you expect perfection, you can make good results impossible.