State Savings Bank in Danger of Demolition

[Armin]

Even after the Z-Deck is completed, Gilbert will still not have enough parking within a couple of blocks for his family of companies. Like mentioned above they are parking in New Center, also in Corktown [[The lots off of 6th between Howard and Porter) completely filled with Quicken people. There are a ton of those white shuttle buses, moving the herd of employees around town. Also there is a lot at SW corner of Michigan and Trumbull that is full everyday that shuttles people downtown.

That is not true. I work at QL..there is no one parking in New Center that works downtown. I park on the Cobo Roof and walk 2 blocks to work, but the shuttles are neccesary for the lots that are a little bit further out.

[WaCoTS]

"no parking = no tenants"
wrong.

no mass transit=blg owners whining about need for parking.

instead of allowing more and more parking structure bandaids to be slapped on the problem, we should be using cases like this to force the issue of making mass transit work. the bus system we already have could use a little better funding, no? rail projects like M-1 take time to build, i get that. but what about an improved and greatly expanded bus system in the meantime? or is a bus *below* the average downtown worker's social status?

anyway, my point is, i get the need for parking places. but that is a short-sighted view. these developers are looking a mere 5, 10yrs into the future when they analyze this problem such as the State Bank case. "We need a parking structure NOW!"

yeah, but what about 20, 30 years from now? what about when mass transit actually DOES get fixed? what are we going to do with all these ugly fucking empty and mostly-empty parking garages littering the downtown landscape? tear them down, huh? strange how detroit is the only city with this problem.


in any case, as a previous poster stated, this bank blg was built strong enough to put a 20-story hotel on top of it. so why cant the developer conjure up a sketch of a parking garage on top of the bank blg? ZOMG, thats insane!
is it really that difficult to come up with that solution? theyre always whining about certain "challenges" that a site presents. i doubt theyre trying hard enough to come up with a solution. who wants to bet that if they did tear this down that they would build a parking structure with 1st floor retail? we already have 1 or 2 of those downtown dont we?

[Spartan]

That is not true. I work at QL..there is no one parking in New Center that works downtown. I park on the Cobo Roof and walk 2 blocks to work, but the shuttles are neccesary for the lots that are a little bit further out.

I know three Quicken people that park in the Lothrop garage. Just because you park closer doesn't mean others do too.

[Bham1982]

"no parking = no tenants"
wrong.

no mass transit=blg owners whining about need for parking.

instead of allowing more and more parking structure bandaids to be slapped on the problem, we should be using cases like this to force the issue of making mass transit work. the bus system we already have could use a little better funding, no? rail projects like M-1 take time to build, i get that. but what about an improved and greatly expanded bus system in the meantime? or is a bus *below* the average downtown worker's social status?

Are you from this region?

Are you seriously arguing that partners at Dykema Gossett are desperately itching to take buses from Bloomfield Hills to Downtown, they're just waiting for the bus stops to hit Lone Pine Road?

Downtown is an easy drive from anywhere in the region. Even if we had something better than piss-poor transit, it wouldn't make any sense for most busy people to waste their time commuting from sprawling suburbs.

For the average professional, why would you wait on the side of the road in below-freezing or sweltering heat, and then endure an hour long bus ride, if you can just zip from your garage to the work garage in 30 minutes in your own vehicle?

[Bham1982]

I know three Quicken people that park in the Lothrop garage. Just because you park closer doesn't mean others do too.

They can park on the moon for all I care. I'm not buying your claim that the closest available parking to downtown is three miles away. That wouldn't be true even somewhere like Paris or Midtown Manhattan. You can find parking, though you gotta pay for it.

Why is it easy to park for the Thanksgiving Day parade, or for a Red Wings parade? Shouldn't you have to park in Melvindale or something?

[DetroitPlanner]

I know three Quicken people that park in the Lothrop garage. Just because you park closer doesn't mean others do too.

Seriously? That garage is not that big. I would have assumed that would be full of Albert Kahn, Fisher, or State Employees. It would make far more sense to park at the Joe Louis garage. Is that now full? http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...%20Parking.pdf

[DetroitPlanner]

in any case, as a previous poster stated, this bank blg was built strong enough to put a 20-story hotel on top of it. so why cant the developer conjure up a sketch of a parking garage on top of the bank blg? ZOMG, thats insane!
is it really that difficult to come up with that solution? theyre always whining about certain "challenges" that a site presents. i doubt theyre trying hard enough to come up with a solution. who wants to bet that if they did tear this down that they would build a parking structure with 1st floor retail? we already have 1 or 2 of those downtown dont we?

Seriously? A parking garage is built like massive heavy tinkertoys. The load of a parking garage is much heavier. Even if it was possible, how would you propose to get the cars up that high? It is not like there is any extra space on that lot.

[Novine]

Anytime you hear someone say there's "no parking in 'insert city name here'", it means:

1. People don't want to pay for parking
2. People are too lazy to walk any distance

You hear these same complaints in Northville, Plymouth, Royal Oak, Ferndale, etc. The issue is never that there's a lack of physical parking space. It's that people are too lazy to walk from the cheap or free parking spots and that they expect the prime parking spots to be cheap or free.

[motz]

Seriously? That garage is not that big. I would have assumed that would be full of Albert Kahn, Fisher, or State Employees. It would make far more sense to park at the Joe Louis garage. Is that now full? http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...%20Parking.pdf

Or, you know, they could park at Greektown for free. Like any sane human being who works downtown would do.

Edit: Let me say that I wouldn't mind 1-2 more parking garages around the CBD, but we should use existing empty lots and surface parking lots [[like the one across from the Old Wayne County building) and build them there. There is no shortage of empty land downtown and directly adjacent, aka less than half a mile, and we should be using it rather than tearing down good structures because "MY SKYSCRAPER" isn't doing well.

[poobert]

I'm not buying it. Downtown takes a total of 10 minutes to walk accross. Try walking. Or ride your bike. Pretend you work in an urban setting.

There is a reason this region is full of fat fucking toilet-busters.

[antongast]

For the average professional, why would you wait on the side of the road in below-freezing or sweltering heat, and then endure an hour long bus ride, if you can just zip from your garage to the work garage in 30 minutes in your own vehicle?

You wouldn't, of course. But if there was no "work garage" and downtown parking was actually in somewhat short supply, and transit options were reasonably fast and convenient, people would start to consider it. Even people from this region.

Even in the existing environment, I think downtown employers could significantly affect commuting patterns if they just bought every employee a bus pass and stopped validating their parking. Most people would probably still drive, but a significant minority would quickly figure out that SMART's park-and-ride buses are actually pretty nice. Fast, uncrowded, mostly utilized by other white dudes in suits, and you can sit in your climate-controlled Suburban and listen to morning-radio fart jokes until you see the bus pull up.

[Spartan]

They can park on the moon for all I care. I'm not buying your claim that the closest available parking to downtown is three miles away. That wouldn't be true even somewhere like Paris or Midtown Manhattan. You can find parking, though you gotta pay for it.

Why is it easy to park for the Thanksgiving Day parade, or for a Red Wings parade? Shouldn't you have to park in Melvindale or something?

Of course it's not the "closest available parking." It's just where Quicken assigns them. I don't work there, so I don't know how it works. I've always assumed that you are assigned to a lot depending on position/seniority/availability. I do know that one of my friends who lives downtown receives $$ from Quicken to not park here. Sure, they could pay for their own spot somewhere [[especially if they get money for not taking the QL assigned spot), but how many people would do that? I don't know what parking is like in other big cities, but in Detroit it is not the norm to have to pay for your own parking spot at work.

[Spartan]

That's absurd and quite obviously not true. If it were true, why wouldn't all those folks just park for free close by at one of the casinos, instead of 3 miles away? The MGM Garage is never close to being fully utilized, ever.

A few things:
reektown is not entirely reliable when it comes to free parking, though that is usually on weekends/evenings. Even so, they can park and walk 1/4-1/2 mile to work, or they can park and walk outside then take a free shuttle. It's not a very long walk, but especially in the winter, I imagine most would choose the shuttle.

I don't know how full MGM gets, but there are shuttles [[I think QL) that go out there, so people are using it [[and parking). Again, the idea of walking a half mile compared to riding a free shuttle applies.

[WaCoTS]

Are you from this region?

Are you seriously arguing that partners at Dykema Gossett are desperately itching to take buses from Bloomfield Hills to Downtown, they're just waiting for the bus stops to hit Lone Pine Road?

Downtown is an easy drive from anywhere in the region. Even if we had something better than piss-poor transit, it wouldn't make any sense for most busy people to waste their time commuting from sprawling suburbs.

For the average professional, why would you wait on the side of the road in below-freezing or sweltering heat, and then endure an hour long bus ride, if you can just zip from your garage to the work garage in 30 minutes in your own vehicle?

why couldnt there be commuter busses that leave from a variety of suburban stations, and go downtown express? why would it have to take an hour? we dont have a subway or train system, and we wont for decades. so whats the option? improve the bus system. you would be amazed at what could happen if you decide to fund it. then all the "professionals" wouldnt have to stoop to getting on those icky city busses.

am i from this region? yes. have you ever been to a real city before? youre pretty much required to use a bus or train to get to or around in the CBD. even "busy" professionals. trust me, people learn to adapt to the conditions of working in a downtown, there is no need to crush historic blgs. and by adapt, i mean making use of one's feet to move about, and relocating from distant burbs closer into the city if that is where one chooses to work. if i took a job in Madrid, should i require the owner of my office blg to put a jet runway next to his blg so i can commute conveniently?

fwiw, i went to the DHDC hearing. i "commuted" from Delray. i parked across from WCCC and walked the mile or so because i didnt want to keep feeding a meter or pay into the parking lot owners' pockets. i realize not everyone can walk a mile everyday [[as some people are disabled), but not everyone HAS to have a parking garage either.

Seriously? A parking garage is built like massive heavy tinkertoys. The load of a parking garage is much heavier. Even if it was possible, how would you propose to get the cars up that high? It is not like there is any extra space on that lot.

i did not say that because it could support a 20 story hotel that it should support a 20 story parking garage. i doubt one of those even exists.

have you looked at the old Nat'l Bank of Detroit Blg? theres cars inside part of it. gasp! how did they get in there?!

im not an architect. but this Apopastopalous dude is probably paying an architect a lot of money to design this "$30M" garage for him. again, you'd be amazed at what you can pull of if you decide to fund it. yeah, it's a tiny parcel for a parking garage, but this dude seems to want to put one there, so i dont think there is any geometrical limitation that is going to completely preclude it or we wouldnt be talking about this.

[Bham1982]

have you ever been to a real city before? youre pretty much required to use a bus or train to get to or around in the CBD. even "busy" professionals. trust me, people learn to adapt to the conditions of working in a downtown, there is no need to crush historic blgs. and by adapt, i mean making use of one's feet to move about, and relocating from distant burbs closer into the city if that is where one chooses to work.

Wow, I had no idea this was the case. I thought everyone in Paris drove their Navigator to the Champs Elysees SuperWalMart.

My point is that Detroit isn't like those other places. It isn't a "real city" [[at least using your definition). It was never built like that, even in the "good old days". It doesn't mean stop trying to improve transit, but it does mean the region isn't fundamentally set up for such a lifestyle. Excepting NYC, very few places in the U.S. are.

[downtownguy]

When it was first built in 1900, the 2 columns on either side of the entranceway are each single blocks of marble weighing [[IIRC) 56,000 lb. each, and were brought to Detroit by ship.

Don't worry about it Gistok. For being more than a century old, you still remember a lot.

[WaCoTS]

It was never built like that, even in the "good old days".

Apopopopostopolos seems to want to convince us that the Penobscot is "in peril," to use the words his rep used last nite at the hearing, due to lack of parking structures. in the early 20th century, i dont think they had too much trouble keeping the Penobscot fairly full of tenants. parking structures did not even really exist back then. most people rode streetcars and busses. was there a problem with parking back then? yep, the streets were crowded with cars because they were a new invention and everyone wanted one. back then it was none of the car manufacturers' concern what people were going to do with them once they bought them. but downtown was thriving. so i don't buy this crap that downtown will die without parking. an excess of cars, and peoples' "need" to have one is what caused this problem, not the lack of places to put them.

in any case, the public has spoken. i dont think a single person was there at the hearing who was in favor of demolition. for once it is time for the car to make the sacrifices, not the other way around. the public made it known that they do not want another historic structure placed on the sacrificial altar of the automobile culture.

[drjeff]

The city owned lot underneath the old Hudson's site is huge and never full. That's where I park for Tigers games, usually. It's $10 for special events like sports but Compuware also has employee parking there so there's probably a deal for monthly parkers.

[Gistok]

Don't worry about it Gistok. For being more than a century old, you still remember a lot.

LOL... you should have seen Shelby St.... it looked like "20 Mule Team Borax"... but with marble instead of Borax... as I recall....

[stinkytofu]

Apopopopostopolos seems to want to convince us that the Penobscot is "in peril," to use the words his rep used last nite at the hearing, due to lack of parking structures. in the early 20th century, i dont think they had too much trouble keeping the Penobscot fairly full of tenants. parking structures did not even really exist back then. most people rode streetcars and busses. was there a problem with parking back then? yep, the streets were crowded with cars because they were a new invention and everyone wanted one. back then it was none of the car manufacturers' concern what people were going to do with them once they bought them. but downtown was thriving. so i don't buy this crap that downtown will die without parking. an excess of cars, and peoples' "need" to have one is what caused this problem, not the lack of places to put them.

in any case, the public has spoken. i dont think a single person was there at the hearing who was in favor of demolition. for once it is time for the car to make the sacrifices, not the other way around. the public made it known that they do not want another historic structure placed on the sacrificial altar of the automobile culture.

I was there yesterday evening - first time I've attended one. While I didn't speak, I was there to show my support for saving the building. For the record, I can recall two individuals [[outside Kraemer) who publicly supported demo - one was the leasing agent for the Penobscot and 211 West Fort and the other was the owner of the Mexican place in the Penobscot. Other than that, it was a tremendous showing of a diversity of people who articulated well the reasons to keep it intact.

[p69rrh51]

I was there yesterday evening - first time I've attended one. While I didn't speak, I was there to show my support for saving the building. For the record, I can recall two individuals [[outside Kraemer) who publicly supported demo - one was the leasing agent for the Penobscot and 211 West Fort and the other was the owner of the Mexican place in the Penobscot. Other than that, it was a tremendous showing of a diversity of people who articulated well the reasons to keep it intact.

At least there a couple DYes members who get it! We should be reveling that the Historic Commission did the right thing preserving the bank. Instead everyone is whining about a problem that has already been discussed to death on here. It sounds like nobody really cares about this gem, they just want to bitch about parking. I could care less about perceived parking problems in the city! Wednesday we did not loose a part of the fabric of this city and that is step in the right direction.
Also for those who actually care about the bank, the building is one of only two structures designed by the world renown New York City based firm of McKim, Mead & White in Detroit.

State Savings Bank 151 West Fort Street built in 1900 Detroit, MI.
Donaldson & Meier were the local supervising architects, and designed the 1914 addition.

[drjeff]

It's worth noting that there are two brand new parking decks going up on Broadway right now [[that are godawful ugly too). I don't know who is doing this or why.

[stinkytofu]

At least there a couple DYes members who get it! We should be reveling that the Historic Commission did the right thing preserving the bank. Instead everyone is whining about a problem that has already been discussed to death on here. It sounds like nobody really cares about this gem, they just want to bitch about parking. I could care less about perceived parking problems in the city! Wednesday we did not loose a part of the fabric of this city and that is step in the right direction.
Also for those who actually care about the bank, the building is one of only two structures designed by the world renown New York City based firm of McKim, Mead & White.

State Savings Bank 151 West Fort Street built in 1900 Detroit, MI.
Donaldson & Meier were the local supervising architects, and designed the 1914 addition.

Yes, it was very refreshing to see the support for the building. While I don't have any past experience to lean on, it did seem that the committee very quickly unanimously decided to reject the proposal after almost an hour and a half of public input and questioning of Kraemer. One committee member mentioned he couldn't even consider this proposal until the developer proved there were no other potential options for parking [[basically prove he can't buy a surface lot nearby - kind of hard when he just proposed a BILLION dollar investment for the jail site, eh?).

[stinkytofu]

It's worth noting that there are two brand new parking decks going up on Broadway right now [[that are godawful ugly too). I don't know who is doing this or why.

That's the Z-Lot Gilbert development which I have no problem with - building a giant parking structure with ground retail on a formerly empty lot. Sounds like that's what also going to replace the Bates Garage. Downtown does have parking issues we need to sort through as development continues - there really has to be some master plan looking at growth scenarios over the next five, 10, 20 years.

[DetroitPlanner]

i did not say that because it could support a 20 story hotel that it should support a 20 story parking garage. i doubt one of those even exists.

have you looked at the old Nat'l Bank of Detroit Blg? theres cars inside part of it. gasp! how did they get in there?!

im not an architect. but this Apopastopalous dude is probably paying an architect a lot of money to design this "$30M" garage for him. again, you'd be amazed at what you can pull of if you decide to fund it. yeah, it's a tiny parcel for a parking garage, but this dude seems to want to put one there, so i dont think there is any geometrical limitation that is going to completely preclude it or we wouldnt be talking about this.

If I understood the proposal, it was to build a structure atop the existing bank. Not to include it in a new building. Structures are built entirely of steel reinforced concrete while towers are built of Steel, with some concrete, glass and coverings. The load of a garage is must more stressful than the load of an office or hotel tower.

You would need to retrofit the building in order to get cars up into the structure. There is no other land available to build ramps otherwise. Lets suppose the engineers find a way to make the structure possible while saving the building underneath. How much of that building could you realistically save? You would need to put the ramps on the Fort Street Side effectively tearing out the lobby and ruining the exterior. [[It would not work on the Congress Side and forget Shelby the turning movements and slope of ramps would be way too much.)

What you are proposing is effectively near killing the patient with chemo in order to save it from dying from cancer. It is not a good solution. It will not be the same and would have no chance to be enjoyed.

On the bright side it would make a great Cheesecake Factory or House of Blues! Put the parking elsewhere. This owner is an idiot. I'd work with the Pontch, developers of the Firehouse to build one structure on the land immediately E of the Firehouse that all can use.