M1 Rail contract awarded

[ghettopalmetto]

100% agree. This is all about aesthetics and nothing to do with logistics. which is why I think this is such waste of an opportunity to do something other than lipstick a pig.

"Lipstick" is that goofy-ass bus "rapid" transit that Rick Snyder and SEMCOG are going to try to sell you. The Woodward Streetcar is far more than lipstick. Reasons for this have been given, but since some folks want to be so blase at the potential for billions of dollars in new investment due to the streetcar [[see: Portland), then that's your problem--not the streetcar's.

It's dangerous [[and disingenuous) to downplay the streetcar based on a single fictional example. Are hordes of people going to take the streetcar from Congress to Grand Circus Park? Probably not. But will people board at Congress and ride to Midtown? Will additional people board at Grand Circus Park to ride to Midtown? Will people boarding at Midtown [[say, commuter rail passengers arriving from Ann Arbor or DTW) ride the streetcar to both Grand Circus *and* Congress to arrive at their destination? Yes.

Are any of these people going to ride the 53 bus, not knowing whether it's ever going to show up, if ever? No. Are developers going to construct new buildings and fill existing space just because DDOT erects a signpost on the corner? No.

And, I do know this: When I travel to a different city, I am a heck of a lot more inclined to ride a tram or streetcar than I am to board a bus, simply because I *know* where it goes, and I *know* where it stops.

Detroit is finally implementing something that it never should have done away with 60 years ago. Don't let the "good" be the enemy of the "perfect". Unlike the debacle known as DPM, the streetcar network can be expanded as money becomes available. But if you just sit on your hands and wait for a 100-mile streetcar system or light rail or commuter rail to fall out of the sky, you're going to get what you've always got: Nothing.

[professorscott]

Amen to that. Maybe this has been asked before, but how fast can the cars go and are the chainable, like subway cars? The reason I ask is should the fairly tale of a high speed transit route [subway/el] up Woodward to Pontiac come true, could those cars transparently blend in? Or would it all have to be at street level?

Sorry about the long delay in answering this.

1. The cars can be linked.
2. The cars, when I was looking into this in detail a few years ago, usually are capable of traveling about 70 km/h [[45 MPH), which is about as fast as you'd want them to go if running alongside traffic. Subway cars in the US usually run at 100 km/h [[60 MPH) when run flat-out on straightaways.

By the way a subway will not happen in our lifetime. More rail [[commuter rail, extension of M1 to Royal Oak, LRT on Gratiot) is likely in 5 to 20 years.

[bailey]

[QUOTE=ghettopalmetto;397055]

"Lipstick" is that goofy-ass bus "rapid" transit that Rick Snyder and SEMCOG are going to try to sell you.

Try? it's been bought. there are no plans other than that. we will have 3 miles of track and the rest will be BRT. again...that is my point.

The Woodward Streetcar is far more than lipstick. Reasons for this have been given, but since some folks want to be so blase at the potential for billions of dollars in new investment due to the streetcar [[see: Portland), then that's your problem--not the streetcar's.

I think comparing Portland's system to detroit is an insult to Portland. Unless of course, we're going to talk about Portland's proposal to start using BRT instead of rail? It's stupid here, but not Portland?


look, Portland's first line was 15 miles long. secondly Portland is the result of 40 years of pretty progressive land use policies. I'm all about comparisons.. but I don't know of one major city doing this today that started with a line as short or had such fucked up priorities land use wise. Dallas? Houston? double the distance for the first line.

[Are any of these people going to ride the 53 bus, not knowing whether it's ever going to show up, if ever? No. Are developers going to construct new buildings and fill existing space just because DDOT erects a signpost on the corner? No.

Perhaps they would if it's reliable? What if our regional bus system operated in such a way that the 53 was linked to an app and you could see it would be at your stop in 47 seconds... and if you missed that one another would be coming in 4:42... and if you miss that... another is coming in 9:48?

And, I do know this: When I travel to a different city, I am a heck of a lot more inclined to ride a tram or streetcar than I am to board a bus, simply because I *know* where it goes, and I *know* where it stops.

I'm curioius what cities you travel to that switch bus routes on you and make it confusing. When I travel I pick up a transit map if I intend to use it and if I'm not renting a car because I need to get to some sprawly office park. Usually, I do use rail lines because most of the time there is a station at the Airport and its going to drop me near to where my hotel is...or will at least get me to a transit hub. Something this will never do.

Detroit is finally implementing something that it never should have done away with 60 years ago. Don't let the "good" be the enemy of the "perfect".

Well I agree.. and it's getting built so there really is not a debate anymore about degree of good. time will tell.

Unlike the debacle known as DPM, the streetcar network can be expanded as money becomes available.

except there is no plan, there will be no money baring a 180 degree reversal in Lansing politics and priorities, and it wont' be expanded.

But if you just sit on your hands and wait for a 100-mile streetcar system or light rail or commuter rail to fall out of the sky, you're going to get what you've always got: Nothing.

not asking for 100 miles, only 10 maybe 15 you know, something that would actually resemble a foundation for a transit system. That... and a credible, believable plan to expand it.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bailey, I think you're confusing "streetcar" with "light rail". That seems to be the source of your frustration. The "M1" Woodward line isn't going to be a high-speed regional light rail system. It never pretended to be. The City's plan, however, *was* for light rail up to the Fairgrounds. I'm cautiously optimistic that people will see and ride the streetcar, and start demanding more of it.

And I agree, it'd be pretty cool to have digital signs at bus stops [[and streetcar stops) that tell you how long before the next bus/car arrives. That's something that could have been implemented a long time ago, using GPS antennae on buses.

I was pretty impressed with the tram and bus system in Warszawa. Each tram stop listed the next four trains, their line number, destination, and number of minutes until it arrived. Once on the tram [[or bus), a video monitor displayed the name of the next station. An LED board showed the entire route on a strip map, highlighted the next station [[and displayed name of the next station), and then showed the travel time for EACH of the remaining stations on the strip map, as well as bus/tram/train connections. It updated as the vehicle travelled--it was nice to know that I would be at the airport in 22 minutes. Such a brilliant, easy-to-use system that I have yet to see in the United States.

[bailey]

Bailey, I think you're confusing "streetcar" with "light rail". That seems to be the source of your frustration. The "M1" Woodward line isn't going to be a high-speed regional light rail system. It never pretended to be.

I'm not [[nor was I ever) confused about what we would be getting, but that is not how it was sold. But again, neither here nor there as it would never have a shovel in the ground without private money...and those that pay the piper call the tune.... so downtown circulator it is. Anything that would actually be regional transit? ...inshallah.

The City's plan, however, *was* for light rail up to the Fairgrounds. I'm cautiously optimistic that people will see and ride the streetcar, and start demanding more of it.

And I'm hoping that is the result too.. however, just about every time I'm on the PM for a game or what not.. I hear the same conversation; "Wouldn't it be cool if this actually went somewhere?" 30 years later we get 3 miles up Woodward.

[Detroitnerd]

And I'm hoping that is the result too.. however, just about every time I'm on the PM for a game or what not.. I hear the same conversation; "Wouldn't it be cool if this actually went somewhere?" 30 years later we get 3 miles up Woodward.

We're going to have the best non-rapid transit system ever designed by billionaires who never studied transit planning!

[professorscott]

We're going to have the best non-rapid transit system ever designed by billionaires who never studied transit planning!

Nobody ever claimed it would be rapid; that isn't the point. Also, the proponents of the system [[who mostly are not billionaires, as you can check for yourself) did study transit planning: they hired people who had studied and managed transit systems and plans, and sat through a good many presentations by people who had built various forms of light rail, and travelled to cities with light rail and looked at their systems, met with the managers and some of the staff and asked a lot of questions. If that's not studying, I don't know what is.

By the way, "streetcar" is a particular kind of light rail; it is not something outside the scope of the term "light rail". "Light rail" is a very broad term that covers a lot of variations; "streetcar" implies certain service characteristics and is a narrower term.

The M1 Rail streetcar service is not meant to be the be-all and end-all of regional transit. That would be an inane thing to believe, and nobody who is or has been involved with it thinks that. It is designed to improve a neighborhood and to give metro Detroiters a look at what improved transit looks like, hopefully whetting the collective appetite for more and better. If it accomplishes only that much, it will have accomplished something beyond what you would expect from the fairly significant sums of money that the local businessmen and other donors, acting of their own volition and without the taxman's gun to their collective heads.

It's OK to criticize the design, but please keep in mind what the point of it is. We aren't trying to replicate the Paris Metro here.

[rb336]

By the way a subway will not happen in our lifetime. More rail [[commuter rail, extension of M1 to Royal Oak, LRT on Gratiot) is likely in 5 to 20 years.

gee, I hope to be alive in 5 to 20