M1 Rail contract awarded

[professorscott]

This piques an important question, in my opinion...

Seeing as this is a streetcar, will it ride like a bus? Meaning, will it only stop when there are people waiting or someone requests a stop? Or will it stop at every stop regardless? This would very much factor into travel times.

The last time I saw the operating parameters, it only stops under three circumstances:
1. Somebody is waiting to board
2. Somebody has signaled to disembark
3. To avoid "jumping a timepoint" [[leaving a time-posted station before the scheduled time)

Incidentally, the Woodward BRT is certainly not going to stop southbound at New Center, empty the bus, and force anyone headed further down Woodward onto M1 Rail or DDOT. That would be inane. Woodward BRT will go all the way downtown, but likely not make as many stops as M1 Rail or a local bus. So people would only need to transfer if their destination is not one of the BRT stations and they don't want to walk a few blocks.

[Chicago48]

This piques an important question, in my opinion...

Seeing as this is a streetcar, will it ride like a bus? Meaning, will it only stop when there are people waiting or someone requests a stop? Or will it stop at every stop regardless? This would very much factor into travel times.

We worked on this design and plan wayyyy back in the 1970s and 1980s. This has sat dormant for about 30 years, it seems so long ago.
It won't go very far, for 3 miles. Detroit is 8 miles long. All it will do is serve the TOURISTs.
Actually they need to tear down the peoplemover or radically update it. It's like a little toy ride about the downtown.

[TexasT]

It won't go very far, for 3 miles. Detroit is 8 miles long. All it will do is serve the TOURISTs.

People said the same thing about our first line in Houston. It goes 7 miles [[keep in mind Houston is almost 5x the size of Detroit). What it did was change people's attitudes and perceptions about mass transit, as tourists used it to go to baseball and basketball games and workers used it to go between downtown and the med center. 5 more lines are now scheduled, 4 of which are under construction.

Detroiters' arguments against the M1 are like deja vu.

[ScienceFair]

It won't go very far, for 3 miles. Detroit is 8 miles long. All it will do is serve the TOURISTs.

I live in Midtown and I love the idea of having a shorter loop system that will be running on a reliable schedule. Currently, I take the 53 which runs from State Fair to Jefferson, about an hour trip each way. If it gets stuck in traffic in HP or downtown or at the Boulevard, it throws off the whole schedule.

Another efficiency that I look forward to is a more accessible and seamless boarding process. Currently, some of the old busses still have that crazy Transformers ramp that pops up and out of the door for wheelchairs. This process adds about 5-10 minutes to any trip. And it's all additive, people bugging the driver, people struggling with change at the fair box. This is why I wait 20-30 minutes during peak hours when there should be a bus every 8 minutes. Too many variables.

I like the texting app that lets you see when the next bus is coming, but I would love to just walk outside knowing that there will be a train in the next 5-10 minutes like in a real city. I would use this system all the time.

[Hermod]

Another efficiency that I look forward to is a more accessible and seamless boarding process. Currently, some of the old busses still have that crazy Transformers ramp that pops up and out of the door for wheelchairs. This process adds about 5-10 minutes to any trip. And it's all additive, people bugging the driver, people struggling with change at the fair box. This is why I wait 20-30 minutes during peak hours when there should be a bus every 8 minutes. Too many variables.

I don't live in Detroit now, but I once did. I rode the buses and even the streetcars. I live in Florida now and rarely use a bus. It might just be my imagination, but it seems to me watching buses load and unload here in Florida that people seem to take longer to get on board and to get off the bus. It just seems that in Detroit back in the forties, fifties, and sixties that people were a lot more expeditious about it and the the driver was quick to shut the door and get motivating.

[michimoby]

People said the same thing about our first line in Houston. It goes 7 miles [[keep in mind Houston is almost 5x the size of Detroit). What it did was change people's attitudes and perceptions about mass transit, as tourists used it to go to baseball and basketball games and workers used it to go between downtown and the med center. 5 more lines are now scheduled, 4 of which are under construction.

Detroiters' arguments against the M1 are like deja vu.

Where were the start and end points of that first line, Texas? Are they high-density areas? And were the access points for the line all in low-crime, high-density areas as well?

I just want to understand the comparables.

[TexasT]

Where were the start and end points of that first line, Texas? Are they high-density areas? And were the access points for the line all in low-crime, high-density areas as well?

I just want to understand the comparables.

Well, Houston was not built around public transit and it's not dense, so there were some issues to start out with. There's no real main road in Houston, although there's technically a "Main Street." So they went with what was best, although it doesn't hit a lot of hot spots.

It runs downtown to the outside of our inner-ring loop highway where our pro football stadium is. Most of the areas are very low-density, aside from downtown and the medical center. It does go through the museum district, which is not dense at all.

I lived in Midtown when I lived in the greater downtown Houston area. The train was about a 5-10 minute walk but not through a safe area. The McGowen stop, the closest to Midtown, is 9 blocks from the only place in Houston that made the "America's Most Dangerous Neighborhoods" list. The train stop is far enough away, but it's still not a good area, mainly because there's a rundown Greyhound bus stop right there where there's a ton of loitering and vagrants. Not once did I ever take the train from my place in Midtown, most because I didn't feel safe. I did live in the Medical Center for a summer, and took the train from there to work downtown every day. The "Midtown" stop is the only one that is flat out unsafe, though some are in less dense areas [[just empty, not unsafe).

The Houston train does not go anywhere near UH [[Houston's equivalent of WSU) but it does run close to Rice U [[much smaller private school). It only touches one major neighborhood, West University, which is one of the most upscale neighborhoods in the city [[the equivalent of Indian Village). It completely misses our shopping district, the Galleria, or the other trendy neighborhoods, like Washington Corridor, the Heights, and Montrose.

Still, people can make it from downtown to the congested medical center easily. People can park on the edge of the greater downtown area and take the train into downtown to see the Rockets or Astros play, without worrying about parking downtown.

It was a rocky beginning. People lightly made fun of me for riding it [["Oh so you're the person they built that for" har har). There were some car accidents since it rides through traffic. And it has a weird honor system where you buy a ticket but don't actually use it to get on the train [[though cops randomly patrol and check for your ticket). Still, overall, it's been a success, which is why the other lines are coming along.

Here's a map of Central and Southeastern Houston, showing what it hits and what it doesn't.

[bailey]

People said the same thing about our first line in Houston. It goes 7 miles [[keep in mind Houston is almost 5x the size of Detroit). What it did was change people's attitudes and perceptions about mass transit, as tourists used it to go to baseball and basketball games and workers used it to go between downtown and the med center. 5 more lines are now scheduled, 4 of which are under construction.

Detroiters' arguments against the M1 are like deja vu.

Its not anti rail/anti mass transit sentiment that is driving skepticism... it's Detroit's/SeMs reputation for having issues with performance. ... it's the deja vu of hearing all the same over-hype that preceded the People Mover warmed over and served up again.

[TexasT]

Hard to find pictures of the trains in traffic. Everyone posts pics of the downtown station, where they closed Main Street off to traffic period [[wonder if they'll ever do that with Woodward, close to CMP?).



The one thing I HATE HATE HATE about M1 is side-street service. Put it down the middle!!!

[TexasT]

Its not anti rail/anti mass transit sentiment that is driving skepticism... it's Detroit's/SeMs reputation for having issues with performance. ... it's the deja vu of hearing all the same over-hype that preceded the People Mover warmed over and served up again.

Yeah I can see that. But I meant the arguments against the actual plans, like "It goes nowhere!" "We're a driving city!" "It's not proper light rail!"

Again, I have the luxury of not having a past with Detroit or SeM....

[michimoby]

All very helpful stuff, Texas. Thanks!

Just curious, was there dialogue around creating a BRT line in lieu of light rail? And if so, what were the talking points that swayed the dialogue in the favor of the latter?

[Umbound]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is there not a part of Woodward that dips down also with a bridge of sorts a little north of New Center? If it ever does extend out what will be done?

[marshamusic]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is there not a part of Woodward that dips down also with a bridge of sorts a little north of New Center? If it ever does extend out what will be done?

Yes; the Woodward dips down at the southern edge of New Center, at Milwaukee. There is a valley there under the Amtrak viaduct.

[professorscott]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is there not a part of Woodward that dips down also with a bridge of sorts a little north of New Center? If it ever does extend out what will be done?

MDOT will rebuild that section of Woodward such that there is enough clearance for the streetcars, and they will not be powered by overhead wire in that section. The streetcar batteries have enough power to go off-wire for a short distance. Actually M1 is considering whether to go with an entirely off-wire system, running the cars entirely on battery.

[rbdetsport]

MDOT will rebuild that section of Woodward such that there is enough clearance for the streetcars, and they will not be powered by overhead wire in that section. The streetcar batteries have enough power to go off-wire for a short distance. Actually M1 is considering whether to go with an entirely off-wire system, running the cars entirely on battery.

Wouldn't an off-wire system make it incompatible for expansion?

[Richard]

I don't live in Detroit now, but I once did. I rode the buses and even the streetcars. I live in Florida now and rarely use a bus. It might just be my imagination, but it seems to me watching buses load and unload here in Florida that people seem to take longer to get on board and to get off the bus. It just seems that in Detroit back in the forties, fifties, and sixties that people were a lot more expeditious about it and the the driver was quick to shut the door and get motivating.

Tampa street car uses a kiosk,cash or debt card to buy a ticket to hand to the drivers which speeds things up.

The bus you can use cash or 30 day pass,what seems to slow things down is expired pass and ones fumbling for correct change when they know from one day to the next what correct change is.

[AuburnSpeedster]

I really like the way Minneapolis has it. They have a great system, very efficient and it too goes on that "honor system" that Houston uses... except it goes in the middle of the street rather than the sides. It also goes off the street in the less dense areas for speed and avoiding traffic stops

[stasu1213]

MDOT will rebuild that section of Woodward such that there is enough clearance for the streetcars, and they will not be powered by overhead wire in that section. The streetcar batteries have enough power to go off-wire for a short distance. Actually M1 is considering whether to go with an entirely off-wire system, running the cars entirely on battery.

That makes more since to have the train run by battery instead of the old fashion overhead wire system. I still don't believe it until I see ground being broken in August[[late summer) as promise. I would say that smoke is being blown up our asses if ground is not broken within August.

[drpoundsign]

rapid transit, like in Cleveland, Saint Louis from the Airport to downtown are Sometimes practical. But they run at grade level and Idiots WILL be run over or killed in Wrecks. The street car did not even have right-of-way so was impractical. The New York Subway is not Pretty-or in an already built up city-practical-but it Works where implemented. An elevated monorail is fast and quiet.

[Detroitdave]

I've lives in several cities where they built of expanded their "Merton" systems and in every case it did what it was built for and in all cases every stop had several businesses around it.
you can mark my words this will help build up an already building Woodward , downtown, midtown , new center , ect.
i Personally can guarantee everything along this line will grow .

[Bham1982]

People said the same thing about our first line in Houston.

And yet Houston's light rail line carries fewer riders than the current Woodward bus. That's a success?

[Bham1982]

I've lives in several cities where they built of expanded their "Merton" systems and in every case it did what it was built for and in all cases every stop had several businesses around it.
you can mark my words this will help build up an already building Woodward , downtown, midtown , new center , ect.
i Personally can guarantee everything along this line will grow .

Not sure what a "Merton" system is, or your personal guarantees of growth, but why is this relevant to a transit system? I thought we're supposed to be concerned with mobility and ridership, not whether or not this attracts a few hipster businesses to open in Location A as opposed to Location B.

And most cities with light rail systems do not see a big business influx. The closest city with light rail, Cleveland, has no business influx along any of its three light rail lines.

[TexasT]

And yet Houston's light rail line carries fewer riders than the current Woodward bus. That's a success?

First, you're assuming that any ridership below Detroit's busiest line is not a success.

Second, you are comparing apples to oranges. Houston has a higher ownership of cars and again, this line doesn't go through any residential areas.

Again, that's why they are building more lines [[if you were around to see what a fight it was to get just one measly line, you'd understand what getting more lines means).

[bailey]

Yeah I can see that. But I meant the arguments against the actual plans, like "It goes nowhere!" "We're a driving city!" "It's not proper light rail!"

Again, I have the luxury of not having a past with Detroit or SeM....

Well, again, the same arguments were there when the PM was developing; "it goes in a useless circle"... "we're car dependent sprawled out city".. "it's not mass transit"... "no one will use it"..."it won't lead to development"

each and every one of the critiques was proven true.

M1 is ANOTHER downtown circulator that only tiny portion of the region's populace will ever see regularly...let alone use.

It's great that people in New center can perhaps get downtown more easily [[and vice versa) but this is not mass transit. its not the foundation of regional mass transit because the regional planners are fucking retarded and have planned any expansion to be BRT [[aka buses dressed up to look like light rail).

It's a side running, in traffic, parking shuttle, boondoggle that will serve very few in a very limited way. the only saving grace is that it's getting a lot of private money. It's still going to do nothing to get people who are trapped in Detroit to the jobs that are in the 'burbs in under 4 hour multiple transfer, one way trips.

I'm not against M1 I'm sure I'll use it on game days and auto show/big event downtown..etc, the same way I use the PM. what I'm against is the unmitigated praise it gets as being "regional" or "mass transit"/light rail. It's a downtown trolley for hipsters and professionals to use because they don't want to ride the bus that currently serves that route... and hopefully lead to some development along the very short route and some gentrification.

[ghettopalmetto]

Not sure what a "Merton" system is, or your personal guarantees of growth, but why is this relevant to a transit system? I thought we're supposed to be concerned with mobility and ridership, not whether or not this attracts a few hipster businesses to open in Location A as opposed to Location B.

And most cities with light rail systems do not see a big business influx. The closest city with light rail, Cleveland, has no business influx along any of its three light rail lines.

Since I know you're into development, Bham, you are surely aware of all the new development happening near the Ohio City, W65th, University Circle, and Flats East Bank stations.

Just because Cleveland was stupid back in the day, and ran most of their rapid transit down existing railroad right-of-way, doesn't mean that Detroit should just roll over and die.