Why doesn't ANYBODY mention the elephants in the room? Crime & illiteracy

**stasu1213** · July-27-13, 07:11 PM

Many so-called illiterate people had started successful businesses through the years especially in this town. The so-called highly educated had robbed and stolen from this city for years.

**mwilbert** · July-27-13, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by rex

Orr isn't making tough decisions or doing Detroiters any favors. Tough for Detroiter decisions maybe.

I think bankruptcy is the wrong tool because it favors secured creditors. As you probably know "secured" creditors under bankruptcy law get paid off before anyone else, and in this case, the secured creditors are mostly the banks that willingly sold Detroit horrible investments they knew were very risky. Those banks shouldn't be rewarded, but in bankruptcy they will be. They can afford the loss and deserve the loss, fuck them.

Then, you're left with the "unsercured" creditors, the biggest of whom are city worker retirees and "bond holders" who are mostly mutual funds, pooled individual investors. Now, the bond holders have insurance, so if they lose out, they are backstopped by their insurers. Also, investors in the bonds presumably had the chance to diversify their investments and didn't throw everything they owned into investing in Detroit, they can handle getting ten cents on the dollar.

But the pensioners, the retirees, when in bankruptcy, they lose their retirement savings and lose their health care, they have no backstop. They weren't making a financial investment, making a gamble they could cover with other investments, they were simply working, doing their jobs, cleaning the streets, processing permits, fighting fires, checking parking meters, plowing snow, etc. And they gave up pay increases over the years for better pensions so they could retire with dignity.

And these pensions, except for a handful of higher up cops and firefighters, are pretty meager. Less than $19,000 a year. That's what they expected to live on from age 65 until they die.

Now, the Michigan constitution protects those pensions, says the state can never fuck with them. So, the Governor of Michigan and the Emergency Manager he put in Detroit [[replaces their democratically elected city council and mayor) knew that the only way they could gut the pensions to pay off the banks was to force bankruptcy, so that's what they did.

So yeah, Detroit needs help, but it shouldn't be on the backs of its city worker retirees who have no other options. Instead, the state of Michigan should re-structure its state wide sales taxes and other taxes to funnel more money to Detroit in the short term. The Federal Government could do a one time bailout. The City of Detroit could sell off some assets, and stop funding big time projects like the new hockey arena.

And above all, they could cancel the bankruptcy and sit down with everyone without the rules about who is "secured" and "unsecured" and do the right thing . . . stiff the banks and protect the people.

This isn't how it works. It is true that the city could have not filed for bankruptcy, but that doesn't mean the city gets to decide what it pays and what it doesn't. The secured creditors know they are secured--they aren't going to agree to being less senior than the unsecured creditors, regardless ifyou sit down with them. Bankruptcy provides an orderly way to make those decisions. Without it, you would have various creditors trying to attach city income streams and seize city assets. It is very hard to see how that would "protect the people."

**firstandten** · July-27-13, 08:45 PM

Also a one time federal bailout is not going to happen, Its not politically doable and sets a bad precedent since we are shortly going to have cities in trouble left and right and all of them are going to want the same thing. Good luck with trying to get the state to restructure taxes to funnel more money to Detroit. That's a pipe dream.

**Crumbled_pavement** · July-28-13, 06:30 AM

The real elephant in the room is that everyone wants a band-aid or silver bullet fix to problems. Sure, different people want different fixes, but everyone wants a simple fix that will take care of everything. Notice a few people in this thread are hi-fiving each other over discovering education is that magic fix. Education though, is more than just a kid sitting in a class room listening to the teacher. As Zacha341 so eloquently pointed out, a child growing up in a household seeing their parents reading makes the child more receptive to reading in school and reading on their own. What do we do with the child that doesn't get that at home, either because the parents aren't there because they are out working two menial jobs to make ends meet or are just too ignorant to the power of reading? On the other end of the spectrum, Firstandten correctly pointed out some just want a bailout to magically fix all the misspending that has been going on for generations. Simply spending more money to be stolen, misappropriated, and just plain squandered won't solve any problems either.

The simple truth that NO ONE on any side wants to hear is that there are a lot of problems in Detroit that require a lot of fixes. Some of these conditions are caused [[YES DAMNET, I WILL SAY IT!) by people outside of Detroit. Some though, ARE CAUSED BY DETROITERS. That means all sides have to give in a little. NOBODY WANTS TO BE THE ONE TO SACRIFICE. NOBODY! When you have multiple problems yet everyone squabbles over one fix or the other fix, instead of understanding we need a lot of fixes, nothing ends up getting fixed. These words are wasted because no one wants to think beyond the simplistic.

**Zacha341** · July-28-13, 08:29 AM

Great Post CP. For sure the problems did not evolve overnight and simple fixes are not going to fix that which has become systemic.

**LeannaM** · July-28-13, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by marshamusic

I see crime mentioned all the time in these discussions as a reason for white flight.

I have yet to see, however anyone discuss exactly how or what type of crime was a significant factor in the early years of white flight - post WWII, 1945 -1960.

Do you have stats or experience to that effect? Was it break-ins? assaults? Racial Violence? Car theft?

I am curious about this.

Based on what I know about White Flight in general, the biggest factors were probably suburbanization, racism, and crime. Crime probably became the bigger factor later on as the neighborhoods deteriorated. If you were White and lived in any neighborhood in the city [[any percentage White and Black) and crime skyrocket, would you stay if you could afford to get out? Most wouldn't.

I don't have any numbers, though. I just think crime was a big factor at least in later stages of White Flight. It makes sense that a neighborhood with increasing crime would chase more people away.

As to the original assumption that the illiterate don't want to work, I'm not sure that's fair. Given an adequate education most probably would want to work. I think when you grow up poor and uneducated, it's hard to rise above that. I think anyone can rise above their circumstances, but they may need a boost.

I also agree that a person's upbringing effects their outlook on life. I live in a poor, rural, 95% White area and I know of multiple generations of welfare recipients. I think for some people, growing up on welfare becomes the normal and it's harder for them to have the motivation to work. That's regardless of race. Welfare kids do not necessarily become welfare adults, but many do, and I think part of it is just acclimation.

Compounding that, teens who grow up in high-crime neighborhoods may be more likely to see gangs and crime as an acceptable lifestyle because, again, it's what they're used to. When you have no success in Elementary and Middle School [[and are always in trouble) it's hard to want to finish High School and especially college. In my area the problem isn't gangs, but we have methamphetamine, underage drinking, teen pregnancy, and dropping out. Overall crime in my area is lower, but the same factors are at work:

Adults and future adults are products of their families and their cultures and when even one of those factors doesn't value education, then the product probably won't either. Anything times zero results in zero.

I also agree that doing something about it is better than complaining, though perhaps the school system as a whole should be tackled in due time.

**sumas** · July-28-13, 11:07 PM

I keep seeing alligators. So many thoughtful commentary s and some just plain stupid.

**Hermod** · July-29-13, 05:16 AM

The beginning of white flight 1945-1960 was driven by quite a few non-racial factors:

1. The city was getting close to getting built out.

2. Couples getting married during the depression often moved in with one of the sets of parents for affordability. With the wartime stimulus to their wages, they were ready to move out on their own.

3. Wartime in migration led to a housing shortage and there was a big demand for new housing after the war.

4. Those little ranch houses out in Warren were amazingly "modern". You could get a house with MORE than one bathroom! Imagine the luxury of one and one-half or two bathrooms. Older Detroit housing stock couldn't compete.

5. Even without the expressways, it was more convenient to live out in Warren because a lot of the smaller supplier shops were building out along the mile roads.

**sumas** · July-29-13, 05:57 AM

Good post Hermod,

My Dad was determined to move us to Warren in roughly 1963, a little money bought a lot of house.

Mom and older sibs out ruled him. We bought a bigger house in Detroit. I don't regret that and Dad has been dead 20 years so can't ask him.

**Hermod** · July-29-13, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

Good post Hermod,
My Dad was determined to move us to Warren in roughly 1963, a little money bought a lot of house.
Mom and older sibs out ruled him. We bought a bigger house in Detroit. I don't regret that and Dad has been dead 20 years so can't ask him.

In 1952, the factory where my father worked moved from Milwaukee near Russell in Detroit out to Sherwood Ave between 8 and 9 mile in Centerline.
My father immediately began looking for a house in Rochester [[he always wanted to live in the country). He ended up buying five acres and building a house and we moved out in May of 1954 [[from the Harper-Whittier area). I did 9th grade at Denby High School and 10th-12th grade at Rochester High School.

**sumas** · July-29-13, 11:43 AM

I still think freeways being built were huge in people moving further and further out.

**Hermod** · July-29-13, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

I still think freeways being built were huge in people moving further and further out.

Further and further out is right, but in 1961, I-75 didn't go north of I-94 and I-94 stopped at Gratiot at its east end. All of the growth south of, say, 18-19 Mile Road happened without the benefit of the freeways. Some of the freeways [[Van Dyke as an example) were built by the demand of people already living out there. I-696 was also driven by the density of development rather than as the instigator of that development.

**sumas** · July-29-13, 02:28 PM

You are right again, demand did fuel expansion. Still better roads meant easier transport. I do remember I 94 being built past our house. It was really a great play ground when under construction.

Highway roads/freeways didn't much exist when I was little. My Dad liked camping up north and one time he thought he found a "better more direct route". He had to keep getting out of the car to shoo cows and sheep. It was hilarious

**sumas** · July-29-13, 02:42 PM

Just for fun. My grandfather came to this country with a doctorate in chemistry from Russia. Met my grandmother who taught english and reading in night school. He wasn't embarrassed to say I need help.

Our kids need help reading but many do not know how to say so

**Hermod** · July-29-13, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

You are right again, demand did fuel expansion. Still better roads meant easier transport. I do remember I 94 being built past our house. It was really a great play ground when under construction.

Highway roads/freeways didn't much exist when I was little. My Dad liked camping up north and one time he thought he found a "better more direct route". He had to keep getting out of the car to shoo cows and sheep. It was hilarious

Davison was pretty early [[I think before WWII) and the first part of the Ford [[called the Detroit Industrial Freeway) went from somewhere on the west side out to Willow Run and was built as a part of the war effort. The Lodge out to 8 Mile was a post war effort.

When we went from our home in the far northeast to visit my uncle in Dearborn, my father would take the Davison and we kids thought it was a real speedway since the highest speed we normally saw was 35mph on Outer Drive.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-29-13, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Many so-called illiterate people had started successful businesses through the years especially in this town. The so-called highly educated had robbed and stolen from this city for years.

Jacques Demers: Illiterate
Kwame Kilpatrick: Literate

Some folks are born leaders, others are takers.

Yes a more educated population will lead to better jobs/region, but reading alone is not a guarantee that it will make a difference in each individual case.

**firstandten** · July-29-13, 03:03 PM

"Jacques Demers: Illiterate " Interesting I didn't know that

**DetroitPlanner** · July-29-13, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by firstandten

"Jacques Demers: Illiterate " Interesting I didn't know that

It is pretty well documented.

"On November 2, 2005, Jacques Demers released a biography, written by Mario Leclerc, entitled En toutes lettres [[English translation: All Spelled Out), in which he revealed that he is functionally illiterate. According to Demers, he never really learned to read or write because of his abusive childhood in Montreal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Demers

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...ott&id=2212807

**marshamusic** · July-29-13, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The beginning of white flight 1945-1960 was driven by quite a few non-racial factors:

1. The city was getting close to getting built out.

2. Couples getting married during the depression often moved in with one of the sets of parents for affordability. With the wartime stimulus to their wages, they were ready to move out on their own.

3. Wartime in migration led to a housing shortage and there was a big demand for new housing after the war.

4. Those little ranch houses out in Warren were amazingly "modern". You could get a house with MORE than one bathroom! Imagine the luxury of one and one-half or two bathrooms. Older Detroit housing stock couldn't compete.

5. Even without the expressways, it was more convenient to live out in Warren because a lot of the smaller supplier shops were building out along the mile roads.

Hermod, thank you for outlining these factors of early white flight. I concur; it was not all about race [[though, of course, even though these "non-racial" elements for moving outward were factors, Detroit blacks were generally barred, through numerous social and economic machinations, from moving to the suburbs based on the same needs, and/or for the enticements you name).

Thanks for taking the time to list those things out, I feel validated as to something I wrote recently.

So, I totally agree with what you're saying. But I'm still trying to get a sense, from the OP or anyone, how "crime" was a factor in those early, post-war "white flight" years.

**sumas** · July-30-13, 03:47 AM

My early years, our doors were never ever locked. Still don't lock my doors until bedtime. As to safety, My sweety dogs would kill if they thought I was threatened.

Invited guests never have a problem, unless of course they don't like dogs drooling/shedding all over them. For non dog lovers, I do put them out, I have a large dog run and kennel out back.

This board is so funny, we are so off topic or perhaps not, I believe crime was mentioned. Always interesting though.

**48205to24** · July-30-13, 06:36 AM

Why mention the elephants in the room?

Illiteracy? Well the state has taken over DPS? When does the state listen to anyone in this city? There are many churches/organizations who try to fill in the gap with tutoring, but nothing beats a functioning public school.

Crime? Who are the residents going to call the police? Really?
The fact that crime is outrageous is lack of resources, mutual respect between community and police, and lack of jobs and education.

Everyone knows the elephants are in the room....but what citizen has the power to tackle the actual elephants.

Thats the job of the leadership which is severely lacking not only in this city but this state- even with emergency manager and his cohorts, state and their cohorts, city mayor/Chief Officers, council,etc and on and on and on.

**Honky Tonk** · July-30-13, 06:57 AM

"Leadership which is severely lacking". "OUR children need BETTER schools". "We need more money for education!" How many new schools were built in the Detroit area in the past 3 years? 3 that I know of for sure, I believe 5 total. Old books and equipment were tossed, left behind, "abandoned", all stocked with new, new, NEW! New bussing company, new routes. All teachers present and accounted for. Mentors, tutors, all ready and waiting. FREE school supplies. So what's the problem? Where are the students? Why is there STILL a 70% drop out rate? 50% illiteracy rate? THAT'S the REAL elephant in the room that no one wants to address, not these straw elephants everyone is tossing dung @. More money has been wasted revamping the DPS in the last few years then ever before. Come sit, partake, learn. So what's the problem? Get to know your elephants.

**48205to24** · July-30-13, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

"Leadership which is severely lacking". "OUR children need BETTER schools". "We need more money for education!" How many new schools were built in the Detroit area in the past 3 years? 3 that I know of for sure, I believe 5 total. Old books and equipment were tossed, left behind, "abandoned", all stocked with new, new, NEW! New bussing company, new routes. All teachers present and accounted for. Mentors, tutors, all ready and waiting. FREE school supplies. So what's the problem? Where are the students? Why is there STILL a 70% drop out rate? 50% illiteracy rate? THAT'S the REAL elephant in the room that no one wants to address, not these straw elephants everyone is tossing dung @. More money has been wasted revamping the DPS in the last few years then ever before. Come sit, partake, learn. So what's the problem? Get to know your elephants.

Yep, Yep, Yep..blah blah ...the state is running the school.

**Honky Tonk** · July-30-13, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

Yep, Yep, Yep..blah blah ...the state is running the school.

"THE STATE, Oh... The Gummint, oh, oppression, police state, poverty, oh, oh, oh..." What's YOUR point to this? STILL not enough resources? STILL not enough ways to get there? If Jesus Christ himself was running DPS, it wouldn't change a damn thing. I agree, it's "blah, blah, blah," all right.

**48205to24** · July-30-13, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

"THE STATE, Oh... The Gummint, oh, oppression, police state, poverty, oh, oh, oh..." What's YOUR point to this? STILL not enough resources? STILL not enough ways to get there? If Jesus Christ himself was running DPS, it wouldn't change a damn thing. I agree, it's "blah, blah, blah," all right.

I saw Archie Bunker for the first time a few years ago on TVLand I think. Thats who you remind me of..
lol

Believe me Jesus Christ was running DPS it would be fine, the state is doing a crappy job just like the Board was... just admit it...cmon..you know you want to!
lol