Why doesn't ANYBODY mention the elephants in the room? Crime & illiteracy

[48009]

Is it not PC to mention that white and black flight was sparked by and was a reaction [[escape) to crime? And please tell me how Detroit can ever come back when it's a city of hundreds of thousands of functionally illiterate citizens -- many of which don't want to work? How can politics or auto makers or unions make people control their impulse to rob and shoot each other or force adults to learn to read and go to a 9-5 Monday through Friday? Nothing I've read has placed any accountability on the citizens of the city.

The Detroit Regional Workforce Fund found that 47 percent of the city's residents are "functionally illiterate."

[Richard]

Is it not PC to mention that white and black flight sparked and was a reaction to escaping crime? And please tell me how Detroit can ever come back when it's a city of hundreds of thousands of [[functional) illiterate citizens? How can politics or auto makers or unions make people control their impulse to rob and shoot each other or force adults to learn to read? Nothing I read has any accountability for the citizens of the city.

It would be to hard playing catch up on education and training,quick results would be by doubling the population to change the odds and then you have the revenue for breaking the cycle.

Which is why the whole shrinking city aspect is not a workable solution as it does not address what is now a majority of the population,unless they just disappear overnight ,which is not going to happen.

You cannot have a 100,000 supporting 600,000 no matter how tight you squeeze into a gated community,they are still there,jobs and education or spend millions trying to forget them or pretend they do not exist until you get the wake up call,then it is the same circle all over again.

[313WX]

Neighborhood problems.

[antongast]

I'm originally from Chicago. I think political business and union leaders certainly played a part in this but NONE of the talking heads mention anything about the citizens. Only in the comment sections do you find dialogue about illiteracy rates, pervasive crime and a lack of motivation to work.

I'm sure if you switch on Fox News sometime you'll find some talking heads who are more to your liking. Now please go away.

[Zacha341]

Ummm, I hear what you are saying, but we DO have a problem with illiteracy, crime and motivation, withstanding articles, and commentary from Fox news or whatever. Fatherless homes is an issue TOO! And not just a problem cause the repubs point it out!!!

We cannot simply say that these issues are just what someone else SAYS, it is a reality and having a negative impact on our community.

I'm sure if you switch on Fox News sometime you'll find some talking heads who are more to your liking. Now please go away.

[JenniferL]

Why must "illiterate" automatically mean "unwilling to work"? I'm sure some of these folks do want to work-- and do want to learn to read-- but they don't know how to make it happen. It's pretty scary to imagine having to go through life without being able to read. I can't even remember a time when I couldn't read!

[Zacha341]

I don't think it is 'automatic' but it is RELATED. It really boils down to values and delayed gratification. We now have generations of illiteracy and that speaks to what a person knows, how they judge, and process the world around them, relative to being motivated to rising above the status quo. And to even apprehend how 'stuff' so to speak is acquired; work ethic, etc. being taught or not taught generationally.

For example, no one in the household is reading, so reading in some class room becomes too abstract and absurd of an idea, it does not related to anything tangible or useful at the gratification level. And if you cannot read you shun the activity further.

Why must "illiterate" automatically mean "unwilling to work"? I'm sure some of these folks do want to work-- and do want to learn to read-- but they don't know how to make it happen. It's pretty scary to imagine having to go through life without being able to read. I can't even remember a time when I couldn't read!

[Honky Tonk]

I don't think it is 'automatic' but it is RELATED. It really boils down to values and delayed gratification. We now have generations of illiteracy and that speaks to what a person knows, how they judge, and process the world around them, relative to being motivated to rising above the status quo. And to even apprehend how 'stuff' so to speak is acquired; work ethic, etc. being taught or not taught generationally.

For example, no one in the household is reading, so reading in some class room becomes too abstract and absurd of an idea, it does not related to anything tangible or useful at the gratification level. And if you cannot read you shun the activity further.

That is about the most honest evaluation of why this City is in the shape it is. Education never was a priority. You could make $50K a year doing a menial job in a factory, full benefits, Unions would protect you if you didn't show up, so why bother? These jobs thinned out and disappeared, Detroit's attitude towards education didn't change. Blaming the fascist State, skin color, or some non-existent 'privilege" is BS. Until people come to grips that an education is absolutely necessary for income sustainability, nothing will change. There enough resources available to achieve the goal. You can lead a horse to water.......

[EastsideAl]

Indeed. How do you know "they" all don't want to work? Have you polled "them"? It sure seems to me that every time there may be some jobs to be had, I see a lot of "them" in line. Not to mention the many of "them" I encounter working in retail and service [[and professional) jobs all over the area. Some of "them" even have 2 [[or more) of these jobs, even if they have to take several slow buses to get there.

[48009]

Indeed. How do you know "they" all don't want to work? Have you polled "them"? It sure seems to me that every time there may be some jobs to be had, I see a lot of "them" in line. Not to mention the many of "them" I encounter working in retail and service [[and professional) jobs all over the area. Some of "them" even have 2 [[or more) of these jobs, even if they have to take several slow buses to get there.

Highest unemployment % in the nation. Largest concentration of illiterate adults. Highest crime rate. I don't need to knock on doors for these statistics.

[marshamusic]

Is it not PC to mention that white and black flight sparked and was a reaction to escaping crime?

I see crime mentioned all the time in these discussions as a reason for white flight.

I have yet to see, however anyone discuss exactly how or what type of crime was a significant factor in the early years of white flight - post WWII, 1945 -1960.

Do you have stats or experience to that effect? Was it break-ins? assaults? Racial Violence? Car theft?

I am curious about this.

[sumas]

I see crime mentioned all the time in these discussions as a reason for white flight.

I have yet to see, however anyone discuss exactly how or what type of crime was a significant factor in the early years of white flight - post WWII, 1945 -1960.

Do you have stats or experience to that effect? Was it break-ins? assaults? Racial Violence? Car theft?

I am curious about this.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha,I love you. This issue has been discussed so often on threads. Can't convince subs that the problems are too complex for them to comprehend,

Rabbits run, Badgers stay. Me, I am probably an opossum, fight when I need to.

[Zacha341]

Well stated. I am striving to stay in the D as long as I can. I think I am a possum too in a way... I don't bother anyone but I ain't 'trying' to see what I have and value jammed up by someone seeking the un-earned.

Rabbits run, Badgers stay. Me, I am probably an opossum, fight when I need to.

[LeannaM]

I see crime mentioned all the time in these discussions as a reason for white flight.

I have yet to see, however anyone discuss exactly how or what type of crime was a significant factor in the early years of white flight - post WWII, 1945 -1960.

Do you have stats or experience to that effect? Was it break-ins? assaults? Racial Violence? Car theft?

I am curious about this.

Based on what I know about White Flight in general, the biggest factors were probably suburbanization, racism, and crime. Crime probably became the bigger factor later on as the neighborhoods deteriorated. If you were White and lived in any neighborhood in the city [[any percentage White and Black) and crime skyrocket, would you stay if you could afford to get out? Most wouldn't.

I don't have any numbers, though. I just think crime was a big factor at least in later stages of White Flight. It makes sense that a neighborhood with increasing crime would chase more people away.

As to the original assumption that the illiterate don't want to work, I'm not sure that's fair. Given an adequate education most probably would want to work. I think when you grow up poor and uneducated, it's hard to rise above that. I think anyone can rise above their circumstances, but they may need a boost.

I also agree that a person's upbringing effects their outlook on life. I live in a poor, rural, 95% White area and I know of multiple generations of welfare recipients. I think for some people, growing up on welfare becomes the normal and it's harder for them to have the motivation to work. That's regardless of race. Welfare kids do not necessarily become welfare adults, but many do, and I think part of it is just acclimation.

Compounding that, teens who grow up in high-crime neighborhoods may be more likely to see gangs and crime as an acceptable lifestyle because, again, it's what they're used to. When you have no success in Elementary and Middle School [[and are always in trouble) it's hard to want to finish High School and especially college. In my area the problem isn't gangs, but we have methamphetamine, underage drinking, teen pregnancy, and dropping out. Overall crime in my area is lower, but the same factors are at work:

Adults and future adults are products of their families and their cultures and when even one of those factors doesn't value education, then the product probably won't either. Anything times zero results in zero.

I also agree that doing something about it is better than complaining, though perhaps the school system as a whole should be tackled in due time.

[sumas]

I keep seeing alligators. So many thoughtful commentary s and some just plain stupid.

[48009]

"Detroit has workers with the lowest skill sets of any city in the nation. The people did not have the education or the resiliency to adapt to other work once the assembly line jobs dried up."

-NY Times

[EastsideAl]

Yes, but how does that mean that "they" don't want to work? Poor schools, a dead manufacturing economy, and a lack of opportunity [[which are all interrelated) does not = indolence.

[48009]

Yes, but how does that mean that "they" don't want to work? Poor schools, a dead manufacturing economy, and a lack of opportunity [[which are all interrelated) does not = indolence.

Poor schools? $16,000/year per student. Why isn't it the parents' fault?

[mwilbert]

Poor schools? $16,000/year per student. Why isn't it the parents' fault?

When people say the schools are poor, they don't mean they don't have enough money. The answer is the same as is usually the case in Detroit--the money is not spent effectively. That isn't really the parents' fault.

I think a lot of children in Detroit probably do have parents who aren't as supportive as one would like. But of course a lot of those parents have their own issues. Maybe they are deliberately not supporting their children, but I would suggest that possibly they have limited capabilities in this area.

[sumas]

Is it not PC to mention that white and black flight sparked and was a reaction to escaping crime? And please tell me how Detroit can ever come back when it's a city of hundreds of thousands of [[functional?) illiterate citizens -- many who don't want to work? How can politics or auto makers or unions make people control their impulse to rob and shoot each other or force adults to learn to read and go to a 9-5 Monday through Friday? Nothing I've read has placed any accountability on the citizens of the city.

YOU HAVE NO CLUE. I have a room I can rent, come and meet my city and the amazing people I meet each day. I even will say charming!

Oops forgot, you are scared of our city.

Of course I keep 3 viscous dogs, one is sleeping in my laundry basket, 2 others on the couch. Trust me, if evil comes they will be vigilant but frankly I do not expect that.

I just hate Detroit detractors, you are clueless about who composes Detroit.

[48009]

I just hate Detroit detractors, you are clueless about who composes Detroit.

I'm not a detractor. Avoiding the "controversial" or taboo realities does the city no favors. The Detroit Regional Workforce Fund found that 47 percent of the city's residents are "functionally illiterate." These are facts that contributed to the downfall and severely weakens its ability to recover.

[Richard]

I'm not a detractor. Avoiding the "controversial" or taboo realities does the city no favors. The Detroit Regional Workforce Fund found that 47 percent of the city's residents are "functionally illiterate." These are facts that contributed to the downfall and severely weakens its ability to recover.

So what would your recommendations or ideas be on a workable solution?

[old guy]

So what would your recommendations or ideas be on a workable solution?

I was wondering the same thing. You pose a problem, ......But what's a solution?

[old guy]

One in five Americans lacks the basic reading skills beyond a 4th grade level.

[sumas]

One in five Americans lacks the basic reading skills beyond a 4th grade level.

It is a shame that too many fail to appreciate a really good book.