Looks Like Dan Gilbert has some competition

[esp1986]

I agree, and I think the best place would be either this site or behind the Fox. The Riverfront could be a great location to get the "airy" feeling you speak of though. I added Tiger Stadium because it's in a decent area, close to downtown and plenty of empty land. I like the idea of playing occasional other events. State championships could be played there for HS football and soccer. It could also be used for other soccer events [[WC Qualifiers, Gold Cup group stages, friendlies, etc) and concerts. It would be a great size for medium-size outdoor concerts [[~20K). Concert competition could get high though with Palace, new Wings arena and a new Stadium.

I'm gonna go ahead and poke a hole in both of these possible locations...

Behind the Fox: There is a reason that the new arena isn't going here. Ilitch was never able to amass all of the land needed for an arena. There were a number of holdouts wanting tens of millions of dollars for small vacant parcels. When it became apparent that it would be easier to move the site north of I-75, this area became relegated for parking. Based on what Ilitch paid for some of these parcels, it wouldn't be cheap to buy them from him.

Tiger Stadium: As long as the Tiger Stadium site has a $3.8 million dollar congressional earmark attached to it's redevelopment, this would never happen. The Conservancy holds the ultimate say on that earmark, and won't settle for anything that doesn't perfectly preserve the original dimensions of the diamond. Not to mention, George Jackson is holding out for a pipedream that likely won't come any time soon.

[Novine]

"The Detroit stadiums are not in the CBD, only downtown.

The CoD doesn't agree with you.

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...ew/map_cbd.pdf

[antongast]

I also believe that an outdoor stadium, like a soccer stadium should not be surrounded by really tall buildings. Need an airy feeling.

Then it really shouldn't be downtown, no? Downtown is where the tall buildings are, and the only reason there aren't even more tall buildings is that the city has been economically depressed for decades. If and when the city's economy improves, there will be a lot more tall buildings built. Why not put a stadium on Lynch Road or someplace like that where there are a bunch of big empty factories and warehouses and parking lots?

[Spartan]

I'm gonna go ahead and poke a hole in both of these possible locations...

Behind the Fox: There is a reason that the new arena isn't going here. Ilitch was never able to amass all of the land needed for an arena. There were a number of holdouts wanting tens of millions of dollars for small vacant parcels. When it became apparent that it would be easier to move the site north of I-75, this area became relegated for parking. Based on what Ilitch paid for some of these parcels, it wouldn't be cheap to buy them from him.

Tiger Stadium: As long as the Tiger Stadium site has a $3.8 million dollar congressional earmark attached to it's redevelopment, this would never happen. The Conservancy holds the ultimate say on that earmark, and won't settle for anything that doesn't perfectly preserve the original dimensions of the diamond. Not to mention, George Jackson is holding out for a pipedream that likely won't come any time soon.

Yeah, I don't know that either is really all that feasible, they are just the best options in a semi-ideal situation. I'm not sure I agree about the "not getting enough land" argument for Ilitchville though. Now that people know that Ilitch is going elsewhere, asking prices may not be quite as ridiculous. People were asking high because they knew he needed it. I think a separate entity may have an easier time acquiring land from those holdouts. The harder part now though, as you said, could be getting it from Ilitch.

[Spartan]

"The Detroit stadiums are not in the CBD, only downtown.

The CoD doesn't agree with you.

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...ew/map_cbd.pdf

I guess it all just depends on the semantics. To me, CBD is the south part of downtown surrounding Campus Martius and Jefferson Ave. The areas we're talking about are Greektown, Entertainment District [[or Ilitchville, if you will), etc. The collection of these areas is Downtown Detroit.

something closer than this [[though I'd extend it out a block in most directions):
http://www.city-data.com/neighborhoo...etroit-MI.html

[Bham1982]

"Can never have too many stadiums and arenas in the CBD."

Name one successful CBD dominated by sports stadiums.

There are none. Sports stadia only make sense in low-value locations, where land is cheap. Otherwise, you are destroying potential economic vitality that would otherwise occur on the site. Even the busiest arenas are empty and dead space the vast majority of the time.

[esp1986]

Yeah, I don't know that either is really all that feasible, they are just the best options in a semi-ideal situation. I'm not sure I agree about the "not getting enough land" argument for Ilitchville though. Now that people know that Ilitch is going elsewhere, asking prices may not be quite as ridiculous. People were asking high because they knew he needed it. I think a separate entity may have an easier time acquiring land from those holdouts. The harder part now though, as you said, could be getting it from Ilitch.

Ilitch was missing a couple of spots right in the middle of where the arena would be built. There was no other way it could have been built behind the Fox, between Adams and the Fisher.

The silver lining in all of this, is that these stadiums are being built on the periphery of the CBD. There is still a lot of space in the heart of the CBD, not to mention 7 or 8 good size lots for office and residential space surrounding Comerica Park.

At least with this soccer stadium plan, there could be apartment/condo buildings surrounding it. I know everyone's about the open-air feeling, but have you seen the drawings? It looks like the plans are for VERY narrow high-rises, allowing for that open-air feeling, yet preserving the urban atmosphere.

[Spartan]

There are none. Sports stadia only make sense in low-value locations, where land is cheap. Otherwise, you are destroying potential economic vitality that would otherwise occur on the site. Even the busiest arenas are empty and dead space the vast majority of the time.

This is true, land has been cheap in Downtown Detroit, which results in a fairly unique sports environment. We have a stadium here, a stadium there downtown because those spots would have been empty otherwise. 100% efficiency is good, but something that produces at 50% efficiency is still better than 0%.

[Spartan]

Ilitch was missing a couple of spots right in the middle of where the arena would be built. There was no other way it could have been built behind the Fox, between Adams and the Fisher.

The silver lining in all of this, is that these stadiums are being built on the periphery of the CBD. There is still a lot of space in the heart of the CBD, not to mention 7 or 8 good size lots for office and residential space surrounding Comerica Park.

At least with this soccer stadium plan, there could be apartment/condo buildings surrounding it. I know everyone's about the open-air feeling, but have you seen the drawings? It looks like the plans are for VERY narrow high-rises, allowing for that open-air feeling, yet preserving the urban atmosphere.

Plus the whole other side of the stadium is occupied by wide road space in Gratiot and 375. There will be plenty of open air in that direction.

[esp1986]

Plus the whole other side of the stadium is occupied by wide road space in Gratiot and 375. There will be plenty of open air in that direction.

True dat!! Hopefully MDOT does the right thing and get rid of 375 altogether! Either way though, theres a lot of space.

[subsidized]

A MLS team season is about 31 games, 17 of which would be played at home. Average attendance to MLS games is about 17,400. So on average a MLS venue will draw roughly 300,000 people each season. Compare that to the Lions at 510,000 each season, the Red Wings at 824,000 each season, or Tigers 2.5 million or more each season. Consider the fact that most of these fans will only attend the game then funnel themselves onto the expressway immediately after and you might realize why I think putting a MLS stadium downtown is a bad idea. If you build residential and office space and manage to fill them then you have warm bodies downtown everyday instead of 17 times a year.

I support the Tiger Stadium location idea, in fact isn't Corktown where many of the new hip kids are moving anyways?

[stinkytofu]

Call me crazy, but the idea of an open aired stadium surrounded by skyscrapers sounds pretty awesome to me. Like how I love driving around downtown in a convertible...

[Spartan]

A MLS team season is about 31 games, 17 of which would be played at home. Average attendance to MLS games is about 17,400. So on average a MLS venue will draw roughly 300,000 people each season. Compare that to the Lions at 510,000 each season, the Red Wings at 824,000 each season, or Tigers 2.5 million or more each season. Consider the fact that most of these fans will only attend the game then funnel themselves onto the expressway immediately after and you might realize why I think putting a MLS stadium downtown is a bad idea. If you build residential and office space and manage to fill them then you have warm bodies downtown everyday instead of 17 times a year.

I support the Tiger Stadium location idea, in fact isn't Corktown where many of the new hip kids are moving anyways?

I see this mentality here a lot, but where do people get the idea that if stadiums aren't built, we can just build full office buildings instead? It doesn't work that way. A stadium bringing 300,000 people each year is much better than a half-empty jail or surface parking lots. Ask the bars and restaurants if those 4 Million people coming downtown every year due to sports are important to the economy. Does anyone consider that maybe the stadiums downtown also encourage people to live and work here? I sure as hell wouldn't have moved to Detroit if it were devoid of entertainment venues.

[Spartan]

Call me crazy, but the idea of an open aired stadium surrounded by skyscrapers sounds pretty awesome to me. Like how I love driving around downtown in a convertible...

Think of the noise implications too

[emu steve]

I see this mentality here a lot, but where do people get the idea that if stadiums aren't built, we can just build full office buildings instead? It doesn't work that way. A stadium bringing 300,000 people each year is much better than a half-empty jail or surface parking lots. Ask the bars and restaurants if those 4 Million people coming downtown every year due to sports are important to the economy. Does anyone consider that maybe the stadiums downtown also encourage people to live and work here? I sure as hell wouldn't have moved to Detroit if it were devoid of entertainment venues.

Agree.

Folks are implying that stadiums and arena are crowding out other uses but what are those uses? Surface parking lots?

By the way, what should the new development, Gilbert or stadium, be named?

"Gratiot Gateway"?

[emu steve]

Pro Soccer in downtown Detroit is good. Hopefully this will happen soon, and will have community-relations soccer programs with urban schools.

The more I think of this thread and Gilbert and his development plans and the 'soccer' plan the more I wonder: Does it have to be 'all of one and none of the other'?

I wonder IF Gilbert and the other guy, assuming he is financially capable, etc. etc., that Gilbert would let the 'other guy' get the two at Gratiot and the freeway and build a soccer stadium there.

Let Gilbert keep the other blocks and maybe buy one or two more and build his planned development.

Would that work or is it silly that those blocks could be split to different owners?

[esp1986]

A MLS team season is about 31 games, 17 of which would be played at home. Average attendance to MLS games is about 17,400. So on average a MLS venue will draw roughly 300,000 people each season. Compare that to the Lions at 510,000 each season, the Red Wings at 824,000 each season, or Tigers 2.5 million or more each season. Consider the fact that most of these fans will only attend the game then funnel themselves onto the expressway immediately after and you might realize why I think putting a MLS stadium downtown is a bad idea. If you build residential and office space and manage to fill them then you have warm bodies downtown everyday instead of 17 times a year.

I support the Tiger Stadium location idea, in fact isn't Corktown where many of the new hip kids are moving anyways?

You obviously don't know the eclectic crowds that go to soccer games. Soccer is a lot like football. The fans will patronize nearby bars, both before and after the game. You're not just going to have people funneling in and out without stopping anywhere else. Sure, you'll have some no matter what event, but soccer fans are young, and like to have a good time. With the proximity to Greektown, this is only a good thing.

[subsidized]

You obviously don't know the eclectic crowds that go to soccer games. Soccer is a lot like football. The fans will patronize nearby bars, both before and after the game. You're not just going to have people funneling in and out without stopping anywhere else. Sure, you'll have some no matter what event, but soccer fans are young, and like to have a good time. With the proximity to Greektown, this is only a good thing.

You're correct, I am not familiar with the crowds that go to soccer games, hopefully they're more civilized than the fans in Brazil or Portugal. Anyways, my main complaint about the proposed stadium is that they only play 17 home games a year. For pete's sake there's a group of folks that ride bikes around the city every Monday that probably would have more of an economic impact [[outside the stadium) than the fans that would be attending those games.

[Gistok]

For pete's sake there's a group of folks that ride bikes around the city every Monday that probably would have more of an economic impact [[outside the stadium) than the fans that would be attending those games.

Not unless there's restaurants that have bike stands that can hold hundreds of bikes each for their patrons??

[subsidized]

Not unless there's restaurants that have bike stands that can hold hundreds of bikes each for their patrons??

Like one of these?

[stasu1213]

Ilitch was missing a couple of spots right in the middle of where the arena would be built. There was no other way it could have been built behind the Fox, between Adams and the Fisher.

The silver lining in all of this, is that these stadiums are being built on the periphery of the CBD. There is still a lot of space in the heart of the CBD, not to mention 7 or 8 good size lots for office and residential space surrounding Comerica Park.

At least with this soccer stadium plan, there could be apartment/condo buildings surrounding it. I know everyone's about the open-air feeling, but have you seen the drawings? It looks like the plans are for VERY narrow high-rises, allowing for that open-air feeling, yet preserving the urban atmosphere.

There are many open fields or lots near the downtown area that could be made into a soccer stadium. Once the Brewster projects are razed that spot could be used as a stadium. Ford Field could be used as a temporary soccer stadium

[marshamusic]

Like one of these?

WOW! That is SO COOL!!!

Of course I'm also imagining how some criminal mind will try to steal the bikes from even this type of structure. Or how it'll break down and your bike will be trapped for a week.

But it is really cool.

[AuburnSpeedster]

Like one of these?

WOW! If only we had that for cars, too! So much more of downtown could be real buildings then!

[emu steve]

Even though this article about the proposed D.C. soccer stadium isn't too analogous to the Detroit situation [[because Buzzard Point in D.C. isn't like the jail site in Detroit), it does show a good example how D.C. is taking a decrepit area and trying to use a sports stadium to turn an area which it absolutely couldn't redevelop despite efforts for decades.

The bottom line is: D.C. took a pretty unattractive S.E. D.C. area which had resisted redevelopment and used eminent domain to get land for Nationals Park. Across S. Capitol is another area which is extremely unattractive for redevelopment and D.C. is using another sports stadium to jump start the area.

Our debates on sports facilities and redevelopment have been point/counter-point.

My point is; IF it is well thought out it can be very successful.

IF it is NOT [[e.g., FedEx field for the Redskins), it will not be.

The ole saying 'your results may vary..." holds true but that is true in most things.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...y.html?hpid=z3