Looks Like Dan Gilbert has some competition

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Ummmm.... the closest residential OR high rise office space is many blocks from this NE corner of downtown... how is it that the land at the NE corner of downtown is more desireable than Grand Circus Park... possible location for a high rise office and residential tower [[surrounded by Broderick, Whitney, Kales, et al). I only mentioned the behind Foxtown area as the location for the soccer stadium. A soccer stadium along Gratiot will end up like the Joe... wedged into an area that may be too small for what they want to built there. I was NOT implying that anyone would want to build a high rise office building in west Foxtown... that would be a silly place to put an office tower...

This Canadian group does NOT have a track record in Detroit... so they're NOT going to get the justice campus location anyway... might as well try to steer them to the Ilitch area. Whether or not THEY WANT it is up to them... just what THEY DO WANT... is not what they're going to get....

I understand what you are saying, but what I'm getting at is:

The Gratiot location would seem ideal to me for a soccer stadium. Easily accessible via Gratiot, near Greektown stuff, etc. It seems 'open'.

I see the area behind the Fox as lacking.

The question of the best usage of that [[Gratiot) land is another question.

It is easy to say that Gilbert would put up some nice stuff to go with his casino and that is better than a soccer stadium.

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 12:44 PM

BTW, if anyone wants to see what a soccer stadium footprint might be like, here is what is being proposed TODAY for Washington, D.C.

The footprint is not that big, but I haven't put it on a map of the land at the Gratiot site.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...f_graphic.html

**Bham1982** · July-25-13, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

It's actually pretty close to half and half, and the most successful ones generally are within the cities, many right downtown. Only suburb-based LA [[which suburbs are so big they're pretty much the city) and KC are in the top 8, and only city-based DC [[which plays in a shitty old football stadium) and Columbus are in the bottom 11.

City [[Seattle)
Suburb [[LA)
City [[Montreal)
City [[Portland)
City [[Vancouver)
Suburb [[KC)
City [[Houston)
City [[Toronto)
Suburb [[Salt Lake)
Suburb [[NY)
Suburb [[Philadelphia)
Suburb [[Dallas)
Suburb [[San Jose)
Suburb [[Colorado)
City [[Columbus)
Suburb [[NE)
City [[DC)
Suburb [[Chicago)
Suburb [[Chivas)

Going by your list, 70%-75% of U.S. professional soccer stadia are in suburbs. I don't see "half".

And almost all the "city" stadia are in suburban locations. There are basically no downtown-type soccer stadia [[at least similar to what is proposed by the Silverdome owners).

**Cliffy** · July-25-13, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Actually somebody did want it, to the tune of $20 million. It was going to be turned into a entertainment complex, but Pontiac declined and let it go to auction where the current owners essentially stole it prom the city at $500K. Yes, I understand it was Pontiac's fault, not the current property owners fault for getting it at that price. But as was mentioned, after MLS pretty much told them to piss off unless they had a stadium ready to go downtown, they haven't put anywhere near the money they said they would into the Silverdome.

I remember they did have a developer who offered to pay $20 mil and then they found out he had no money. I don't know what could have stopped this developer from buying the Silverdome at the online auction that anyone could have bid on. That was not a fleecing. Tearing the silverdome down would cost millions upon millions. Thats why nobody wanted to touch it.

Also, I don't buy your MLS downtown stadium. I mean if it was a requirement, then why doesn't Chicago play in Chicago or Colorado play in Denver or Los Angeles play in LA, or NYC play in NYC. See a trend....

**subsidized** · July-25-13, 02:01 PM

Bham, can you stop being so damn negative about everything ever posted. It doesn't matter where the other MLS stadiums are located. It's been tried and MLS doesn't want to put a team in Pontiac. Oakland County isn't the "cool" place to be anymore, business and people want to be downtown.

**bailey** · July-25-13, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by subsidized

. Oakland County isn't the "cool" place to be anymore, business and people want to be downtown.

...well, sure.. but it remains to be shown that anyone around here would give a rip about soccer. Further, personally I really doubt that the highest and best use of that area is ANOTHER stand alone, single use stadium.

**Gistok** · July-25-13, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

...well, sure.. but it remains to be shown that anyone around here would give a rip about soccer. Further, personally I really doubt that the highest and best use of that area is ANOTHER stand alone, single use stadium.

Now that I can agree with...

**stinkytofu** · July-25-13, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by subsidized

Bham, can you stop being so damn negative about everything ever posted. It doesn't matter where the other MLS stadiums are located. It's been tried and MLS doesn't want to put a team in Pontiac. Oakland County isn't the "cool" place to be anymore, business and people want to be downtown.

Bham was absolutely adamant a few years ago that there was enough parking underneath 211 West Fort to support most the tenants...not even remotely true. I went back and forth with him explaining how he was completely 100% wrong, but he never would concede the point. It was so bizarre...since then I just kind of phase him out.

**subsidized** · July-25-13, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

...well, sure.. but it remains to be shown that anyone around here would give a rip about soccer. Further, personally I really doubt that the highest and best use of that area is ANOTHER stand alone, single use stadium.

Oh, I agree 100%, I think building a soccer stadium would be a colossal waste of time and money. Sell it to Gilbert and they'll probably break ground on something by 2014.

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by subsidized

Oh, I agree 100%, I think building a soccer stadium would be a colossal waste of time and money. Sell it to Gilbert and they'll probably break ground on something by 2014.

Question:

where should a soccer stadium go? [[assuming a team would come to Detroit)

**esp1986** · July-25-13, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by subsidized

Oh, I agree 100%, I think building a soccer stadium would be a colossal waste of time and money. Sell it to Gilbert and they'll probably break ground on something by 2014.

I've got news for ya, Mr. Pessimistic. These teams have at least been moderately successful. Seeing that a suburb of LA is the lowest attending franchise with a little over 13,000 fans a game. With M-1 Rail connecting Downtown to Midtown and Wayne State, that will only help a team. With the growing young population as well as the strong attendance of the amateur Detroit City FC, these are all positive signs. IN ADDITION, these stadiums double as concert venues. Not your 'hey, let's throw a stage in centerfield at Comerica Park and have a show,' but many of them have stages built in, as part of one of the end zones, complete with a bandshell. Columbus Crew Stadium in Columbus, OH, has a retractable grandstand in front of theirs, as does Toyota Park in a suburb of Chicago.

The bottom line, is that these are multipurpose facilities, and even if Detroit is on the lower end of attendance in MLS, the city would have another open air venue for shows and concerts. One that would be more intimate than Comerica Park, and would cater to smaller events than CoPa, as for some shows, it can hold 35,000+.

**subsidized** · July-25-13, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Question:

where should a soccer stadium go? [[assuming a team would come to Detroit)

I don't think there's a need for a Detroit MLS team at all.

**subsidized** · July-25-13, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

I've got news for ya, Mr. Pessimistic. These teams have at least been moderately successful. Seeing that a suburb of LA is the lowest attending franchise with a little over 13,000 fans a game. With M-1 Rail connecting Downtown to Midtown and Wayne State, that will only help a team. With the growing young population as well as the strong attendance of the amateur Detroit City FC, these are all positive signs. IN ADDITION, these stadiums double as concert venues. Not your 'hey, let's throw a stage in centerfield at Comerica Park and have a show,' but many of them have stages built in, as part of one of the end zones, complete with a bandshell. Columbus Crew Stadium in Columbus, OH, has a retractable grandstand in front of theirs, as does Toyota Park in a suburb of Chicago.

The bottom line, is that these are multipurpose facilities, and even if Detroit is on the lower end of attendance in MLS, the city would have another open air venue for shows and concerts. One that would be more intimate than Comerica Park, and would cater to smaller events than CoPa, as for some shows, it can hold 35,000+.

Thanks... I guess... Mr. Optimist?!?

**esp1986** · July-25-13, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by subsidized

I don't think there's a need for a Detroit MLS team at all.

Just because you don't give a shit, doesn't mean no one else does. Soccer is definitely a niche sport in this country, but young people are the key to rebuilding the city at the moment, and anything that would attract them is a plus. Let Dan Gilbert focus on Woodward. It's great to have other investors wanting to contribute Downtown... Gilbert can only do so much.

**Novine** · July-25-13, 08:07 PM

"The bottom line, is that these are multipurpose facilities, and even if Detroit is on the lower end of attendance in MLS, the city would have another open air venue for shows and concerts. One that would be more intimate than Comerica Park, and would cater to smaller events than CoPa, as for some shows, it can hold 35,000+."

A total waste of valuable real estate to place this downtown. The city has already dedicated too much space to stadiums and arenas in the CBD.

**Spartan** · July-25-13, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Going by your list, 70%-75% of U.S. professional soccer stadia are in suburbs. I don't see "half".

And almost all the "city" stadia are in suburban locations. There are basically no downtown-type soccer stadia [[at least similar to what is proposed by the Silverdome owners).

Uh... 58% are in suburbs [[11/19), and no, most of the "city" stadia are not in "suburban" locations. In fact, you could argue that LA, Salt Lake could be considered "city" locations in the suburbs.

**esp1986** · July-25-13, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

"The bottom line, is that these are multipurpose facilities, and even if Detroit is on the lower end of attendance in MLS, the city would have another open air venue for shows and concerts. One that would be more intimate than Comerica Park, and would cater to smaller events than CoPa, as for some shows, it can hold 35,000+."

A total waste of valuable real estate to place this downtown. The city has already dedicated too much space to stadiums and arenas in the CBD.

Oh, yeah, because we don't have swaths of vacant land in Detroit. The more land that gets used, the better. Eliminating vacant space is what will drive up property values and rents, as it increases demand, which in turn will make more projects feasible. If in 20-30 years we suddenly run out of land downtown, somebody may buy it, tear it down and build something new. For now, we shouldn't be picky, if the land is valued more for something else later, then we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

**Novine** · July-25-13, 11:02 PM

"Oh, yeah, because we don't have swaths of vacant land in Detroit."

Exactly. There's a 1000 other places this could go. This is no different than the idiots who want to build an Ayn Rand world on Belle Isle. Just because Detroit is down and desperate should it sacrifice smart planning for a quick buck. The city's done that for decades and it hasn't gotten it anywhere.

**Gistok** · July-25-13, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

Oh, yeah, because we don't have swaths of vacant land in Detroit. The more land that gets used, the better. Eliminating vacant space is what will drive up property values and rents, as it increases demand, which in turn will make more projects feasible. If in 20-30 years we suddenly run out of land downtown, somebody may buy it, tear it down and build something new. For now, we shouldn't be picky, if the land is valued more for something else later, then we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

It's your exact assessment that the downtown and midtown area have so many movie palaces and performance venues still in existence and either restored or restoration prone.

Even such lost causes as the Garden Bowl, the National and the United Artists have a chance at a second life. And it was the depressed need for redevelopment in the 1960s-1980s that Detroit was able to salvage the Capitol [[Detroit Opera House), Orchestra Hall, the Fillmore [[State), the Gem/Century, the Tele-Arts, and even the Fox.

Some cities such as Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Baltimore and Phoenix lost all their downtown movie palaces during those eras. So when a show comes to otherwise successful Philly, it usually goes to the antiquated Academy of Music or to a suburban venue... only recently has Philly been able to build a modern venue.

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

"The bottom line, is that these are multipurpose facilities, and even if Detroit is on the lower end of attendance in MLS, the city would have another open air venue for shows and concerts. One that would be more intimate than Comerica Park, and would cater to smaller events than CoPa, as for some shows, it can hold 35,000+."

A total waste of valuable real estate to place this downtown. The city has already dedicated too much space to stadiums and arenas in the CBD.

Can never have too many stadiums and arenas in the CBD.

Sure they don't bring folks in everyday like some other type of business, but they do bring folks in from all over the region and sports is a bedrock of Detroit.

As someone else has mentioned, Detroit's CBD needs folks to keep eating up land like Pacman.

Having a declining amount of develop-able land is a good thing.

I do get back to one of my questions:

If Gilbert gets this land, where else would a soccer stadium go [[other than behind the Fox)?

**Spartan** · July-25-13, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Can never have too many stadiums and arenas in the CBD.

Sure they don't bring folks in everyday like some other type of business, but they do bring folks in from all over the region and sports is a bedrock of Detroit.

As someone else has mentioned, Detroit's CBD needs folks to keep eating up land like Pacman.

Having a declining amount of develop-able land is a good thing.

I do get back to one of my questions:

If Gilbert gets this land, where else would a soccer stadium go [[other than behind the Fox)?

Tiger Stadium or along the Riverfront perhaps

**emu steve** · July-26-13, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

Tiger Stadium or along the Riverfront perhaps

I'll get back to a common theme or idea of mine:

Stadiums or arena should be placed in locations so that parking can be reused.

By reused I mean the same parking can be used by multiple venues.

Needless to say, any parking for Comerica Park, Ford Field, or the new hockey arena could [[should) be used for a soccer stadium.

Behind the Fox would meet that requirement.

I also believe that an outdoor stadium, like a soccer stadium should not be surrounded by really tall buildings. Need an airy feeling.

I was reading about D.C.'s proposed soccer stadium and they mentioned other usages such as football.

A soccer stadium could be used for high school games and maybe even college game or two [[e.g., EMU could play an annual game there).

**Novine** · July-26-13, 08:47 AM

"Can never have too many stadiums and arenas in the CBD."

Name one successful CBD dominated by sports stadiums.

**Spartan** · July-26-13, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I'll get back to a common theme or idea of mine:

Stadiums or arena should be placed in locations so that parking can be reused.

By reused I mean the same parking can be used by multiple venues.

Needless to say, any parking for Comerica Park, Ford Field, or the new hockey arena could [[should) be used for a soccer stadium.

Behind the Fox would meet that requirement.

I also believe that an outdoor stadium, like a soccer stadium should not be surrounded by really tall buildings. Need an airy feeling.

I was reading about D.C.'s proposed soccer stadium and they mentioned other usages such as football.

A soccer stadium could be used for high school games and maybe even college game or two [[e.g., EMU could play an annual game there).

I agree, and I think the best place would be either this site or behind the Fox. The Riverfront could be a great location to get the "airy" feeling you speak of though. I added Tiger Stadium because it's in a decent area, close to downtown and plenty of empty land. I like the idea of playing occasional other events. State championships could be played there for HS football and soccer. It could also be used for other soccer events [[WC Qualifiers, Gold Cup group stages, friendlies, etc) and concerts. It would be a great size for medium-size outdoor concerts [[~20K). Concert competition could get high though with Palace, new Wings arena and a new Stadium.