Justice for Trayvon [Protest Rally in Grand Circus Park]

[michimoby]

This is far from the only data point regarding American society and its relationship to black people. This case touched a nerve because the nerve was there to touch. It's not random.

I absolutely agree with this. To pretend that bias isn't inherent in our justice systems is to attempt to make up claims that water isn't wet. [[It isn't, I swear.)

But I hesitate at the idea that this case points to a distinct absence of any justice whatsoever for the black community. I also am puzzled by the distinct ignorance of Trayvon's actions in this case that prompted a likely emotionally charged and scared man to discharge his weapon. The slippery slope of rage has turned Zimmerman into a cold-blooded killer rather than a man with suspicions and fear given a recent history of neighborhood home invasions.

[bailey]

Ok. I don't even see the relevance of SYG as it pertains to Zimmerman's acquittal. And I'm not sure Michigan's self-defense law is as broad as Florida's but even if it is, so?

I read your first post to be implying that florida was some sort of way out there jurisdiction. they aren't ....all I'm saying.

I still disagree with Florida's law if Zimmerman is not guilty of manslaughter under his version of the facts.

well in both murder and manslaughter, self defense is the defense. They jury believed the state did not prove BRD that he did not act in self defense. Had they just charged him with M/S, he'd still be walking today. [[as he would in Michigan btw) IMHO, the MOST he should have been charged [[if at all) with was the manslaughter. they were never going to get Murder II because they were never going to be able to prove the "ill will that indicates an indifference to human life". they WAY overcharged him because it became a race thing and politicized right out of the gate. the Prosecutors deserve the investigation into their conduct that is coming.

Never said it did. But I am not "gleeful." And I don't believe that Zimmerman was morally innocent - he just didn't break Florida law.

all I'm saying is there are a lot of people that disagree with you on that.

[antongast]

I would rather see images of Hadiya Pendleton, the 15 year old honor student from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. College Preparatory High School in Chicago, who was shot and killed a week after performing at President Obama's inauguration.

[TexasT]

I read your first post to be implying that florida was some sort of way out there jurisdiction.

You read more into the statement than was there then. I brought up Florida because that's where he was prosecuted.

they aren't ....all I'm saying. well in both murder and manslaughter, self defense is the defense. They jury believed the state did not prove BRD that he did not act in self defense. Had they just charged him with M/S, he'd still be walking today. [[as he would in Michigan btw) IMHO, the MOST he should have been charged [[if at all) with was the manslaughter. they were never going to get Murder II because they were never going to be able to prove the "ill will that indicates an indifference to human life". they WAY overcharged him because it became a race thing and politicized right out of the gate. the Prosecutors deserve the investigation into their conduct that is coming.

Did you ask them why they "overcharged" him or are you guessing again? Because there are multiple reasons why they may have. Perhaps they thought it'd be easier to get a manslaughter charge when the jury got to choose between the two, a compromise of sorts. That's a common tactic across all litigation. In fact, I believe I read that's what Zimmerman's attorneys think happened here.

all I'm saying is there are a lot of people that disagree with you on that.

Interesting. While I know several people who believe he should walk under the law, I don't personally know anyone who thinks Zimmerman was absolutely in the right the whole time. That is even scarier than those who just take pleasure in him getting acquitted.

[Downriviera]

Thank you. Now if only this was on the national level and not just Chicago.

[emu steve]

I would like to get back to what I find most upsetting:

Zimmerman shot for the heart. He could have gone for the right shoulder or arm.

I would have hoped that he would have used the LEAST amount of force necessary to defend himself.

The best post I've read is that Zimmerman could have been a Good Samaritan and offered Trayvon a ride on that rainy night.

Zimmerman could have rolled down his window and asked: "Hi, can I help you?" That is also a positive 'neighborhood watch' type strategy. That is the best way not to overreact and let the situation dictate itself instead of saying "I KNOW he is up to no good."

Instead, Zimmerman adopted a vigilante mentality and essentially helped created a deadly incident out of nothing.

[brizee]

The next ones are gonna be
"What about Detroit?"
"What about Baltimore?"
"What about Africa?"
"What about all those black folks killing each other/poor white people?"

It happens in every thread in every forum, message board or news story comment section I've ever read.

[TexasT]

I would like to get back to what I find most upsetting:

Zimmerman shot for the heart. He could have gone for the right shoulder or arm.

To be fair, if you bring out a gun, you aim to kill. If he shot TM in his arm, TM would have been extremely likely to try and wrestle the gun away and kill GZ. I know if someone shot me in the arm or shoulder, I'd damn sure try to incapacitate them.

That's why I don't carry a gun, despite really enjoying shooting them. The risk of me doing something incorrect with it is higher than the risk of me correctly using it to thwart a criminal who intends to hurt or kill me.

The best post I've read is that Zimmerman could have been a Good Samaritan and offered Trayvon a ride on that rainy night.

Zimmerman could have rolled down his window and asked: "Hi, can I help you?"

Instead, Zimmerman adopted a vigilante mentality and essentially helped created a deadly incident out of nothing.

Yes exactly. I have been in GZ's situation countless times [[seeing "suspicious" person in a crime-heavy area, although my bar for suspicion is higher than Walking While Black). Never once did I even think about doing what he did - mostly because I wouldn't want the situation to turn out the way this one did.

[bailey]

you read more into the statement than was there then. I brought up Florida because that's where he was prosecuted.

My bad. seems like a lot of people are like "florida is just a bunch of fucked up rednecks" without realizing its the law here too.

Did you ask them why they "overcharged" him or are you guessing again? Because there are multiple reasons why they may have.

The facts simply did not support a claim beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted with intent and a "depraved mind, hatred, malice, evil intent or ill will." Had the special prosecutor charged manslaughter, the case might have been closer but would have still been a challenge.

Perhaps they thought it'd be easier to get a manslaughter charge when the jury got to choose between the two, a compromise of sorts. That's a common tactic across all litigation. In fact, I believe I read that's what Zimmerman's attorneys think happened here.

] Considering they didn't even ask for manslaughter until the jury instructions it was kinda obvious they thought they were going to get him on murder 2. the compromise verdict was a gambit... and as you point out, recognized by the Defense attorneys for that. look, regardless of the charge, self defense was still a defense. They were going to have a hard time proving the lesser manslaughter...let alone the "depravity" needed to get Murder 2

Interesting. While I know several people who believe he should walk under the law, I don't personally know anyone who thinks Zimmerman was absolutely in the right the whole time.

Then I question how much time you've spent with people outside of you're social circle. I just spent a week in texas, a few days in florida, and a few days in southern ohio.. .what I saw was a near unanimity in the belief of Zimmerman's innocence [[morally and under the law) and the injustice of his "railroading" by "the media" and "liberals". But i was probably interacting with groups that skew more Red than Blue.

[poobert]

To be fair, if you bring out a gun, you aim to kill. If he shot TM in his arm, TM would have been extremely likely to try and wrestle the gun away and kill GZ. I know if someone shot me in the arm or shoulder, I'd damn sure try to incapacitate them.

This is probably my biggest pet peeve with armchair jurors - this unrealistic idea of shooting to maim someone. You shoot to kill.

You don't fucking try to shoot someone in the hand, or arm, or butt, or whatever nonsense they come up with. Anyone who says that is woefully ignorant about firearms and has watched too many James Bond movies.

For the record, I don't particularly like guns, I don't own a gun, and I'm for more gun control. However I'm trained to use them [[active duty military) and you shoot for center mass. Period. I'd like to see you assclowns try to shoot somebody in hand. First of all, you're going to freaking miss, and hit someone/something else. Or on the freak chance you hit them, you're just going to piss them off and they're going to kill you. Go to the range and try to hit a moving target in the hand [[and try to pretend that target is attacking you) and tell me how it works out for you.

[TexasT]

My bad. seems like a lot of people are like "florida is just a bunch of fucked up rednecks" without realizing its the law here too.

I have been pretty disappointed with how "fucked up redneck" Michigan has turned out to be. Still better than Texas though.

[Downriviera]

The best post I've read is that Zimmerman could have been a Good Samaritan and offered Trayvon a ride on that rainy night.

Zimmerman could have rolled down his window and asked: "Hi, can I help you?" That is also a positive 'neighborhood watch' type strategy. That is the best way not to overreact and let the situation dictate itself instead of saying "I KNOW he is up to no good."

Instead, Zimmerman adopted a vigilante mentality and essentially helped created a deadly incident out of nothing.

This is very true. And Martin could have said, *Hi, I'm just coming back from the store and going to where my dad is staying." Instead, Martin chose to attack and essentially helped create a deadly incident out of nothing.

[emu steve]

Curious if anyone knows anything about Mark O'Mara or Don West?

Pardon the bad pun, but are they 'straight shooters' or lawyers who are out of the mainstream?

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » GoLeft TV » ALEC Responsible For Trayvon Martin Murder

[EastsideAl]

I still don't understand why a child walking home from the store apparently doesn't have the right to defend himself with his hands from a creepy unidentified man who is stalking him for no discernible reason - but a creepy unidentified adult who is for no legal reason stalking a young man walking home [[and had, in fact, been told by a police employee to stop doing so), if that child defends himself against him with his his hands [[a crime?), apparently has a special right to defend himself by summarily executing said child with a firearm [[not a crime!). Despite initiating the entire confrontation in the first place with his wannabe vigilante creepy stalking activity.

I think the natural conclusion that a lot of people [[including myself) come to from this legal absurdity is that it isn't a crime because, while defending yourself against a creepy adult with your fists is intolerable, killing kids with guns is just fine. Or, more likely, its because black teenagers are assumed to be scary and criminal - even when walking home with ice tea and candy in their hands - and white/Hispanic sons of judges are assumed to always be on the side of all that's right - even while acting as self-appointed vigilantes stalking unarmed [[black) teenagers with a gun in their hands.

The other conclusion one can naturally draw is that Florida is indeed a state full of fucked-up rednecks with some fucked-up nonsensical redneck laws. And the extent to which Michigan has passed similar insane gun laws is the extent to which our state is becoming a fucked-up redneck state as well.

[Richard]

1980s 3000 people per week were moving into the state of FLA.,where did they come from?

We now know he was coming from the store,neighborhood watch saw a stranger how was he supposed to know where he came from?

Gated community across a four lane gunshot ally hood that was having break in problems you see a stranger and ask who they are, which is your right to do out of concern for your neighbors and that stranger tells you to puck off .

Well if said stranger said "I am so and sos nephew coming from the store" you would think that would be the end, no need to follow,yes or no?

Gated community ,streets are private ,public streets, yes,you would not have to provide an answer ,anybody with common sense knows if you enter a gated community you are subject to the rules of that community including being asked where you are going and how you got in , in the first place .

If I was speculating I would wonder why TM did not call 911 if he thought he was being harassed as bad as he explained to his girl friend on the phone at the time,he had time or maybe he thought he could kick the crackers ass and did not feel the need.

Why is it a you tube video shows a black man beating a white woman in her home and it is just that,a person beating another, but if the tables are turned it becomes an international televised daily show ?

What a mess ,the whole country is becoming two forward three back.

[Downriviera]

I don't consider a 17 year old a child. But then I've been a victim. I was attacked by 3 teenagers. Broke my nose, split my lip, two black eyes and a concussion. They left me bleeding on the sidewalk and I'm lucky they didn't hit me a few more times. Had I had a gun that night they would all be dead. The media kept showing pictures of a 12 year old Martin and then showed Zimmerman's mug shot. The defense was very smart to show the jury what Martin looked like at the time of the incident. With the home breakins in the neighborhood by teens wearing hoodies, Zimmerman had every right to be on that sidewalk and follow him all through the neighborhood. All Martin had to do was keep walking home. Maybe we need to look more at the root cause of all this, the teens doing the breakins. They even terrorized a girl who was home when they attempted to break in. The parents of these 'children' don't know what their kids are doing, and nobody wants to be a snitch.

[Richard]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » GoLeft TV » ALEC Responsible For Trayvon Martin Murder

Not to you personally,but we ask our service members to use deadly force to protect our country but yet if we use the same force to protect our family or well being on this soil we should have to spend $50,000 plus to defend that action?

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » The Slave Patrol is Alive & Well in Florida

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » Will There be Justice for Trayvon Martin?

[Detroitnerd]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/...martins-peers/

Many are organizing protest marches. What are they are protesting? The verdict? Had the verdict been otherwise, would they have organized support marches? Although they may differ in their demands, both protest and support marches reinforce the authority of the legal system. [[I note in passing that many of those protesting defend the legal system when it works to their advantage, for example in the acquittal of Angela Davis or Huey Newton. Would they really want to do away with the stipulation that to be convicted a person must be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?)

...

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » Caller: Trayvon Martin is Responsible for his own Death

[Bobl]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18ts...f/ku-large.gif

[hudkina]

I still don't understand why a child walking home from the store apparently doesn't have the right to defend himself with his hands from a creepy unidentified man who is stalking him for no discernible reason

Why did Martin need to defend himself? Zimmerman was keeping a good amount of space between them, even if he was following. Martin could have easily hurried back to his house. He could have called 911 and told them he was being followed. He could have done many things. Instead, he decided to aggressively confront Zimmerman. Even if Zimmerman was profiling Martin, there was absolutely no reason Martin should have escalated the situation on his end.

Clearly both were at fault for escalating the situation beyond what it could have been. Zimmerman is not the nefarious villain and Martin is not the fallen hero. They were both human beings who made stupid decisions and equally escalated a situation into a major tragedy.

[EastsideAl]

What in the world are you talking about? Zimmerman - an adult private citizen with no more or less right to be in that apartment complex than Martin - followed and then confronted a teenager walking home. Zimmerman was not a law enforcement officer and had no legal authority whatsoever for his actions. How is Martin supposed to magically know not to defend himself against such an intrusion? Why is he not equally entitled to "stand his ground" and defend himself against an unknown assailant? How is Martin the aggressor in this situation and not Zimmerman, who was wholly responsible for creating the situation in the first place?

I don't particularly want to fight this whole thing over again, since an enormous amount of words and other hot air has already been expelled over this case. But it has always stood out to me that one person involved - the armed adult - seemed to have a whole lot more right to "defend" himself than the other one.

As for calling 911, if Zimmerman had followed the instructions he was given when he called 911 then he wouldn't have been on trial in the first place. He certainly wouldn't have shot and killed an unarmed teenager.