Great Lakes Crossing - Early Years and Construction Memories

[mtburb]

Places like Fountain Walk are designed without covered areas to give them more of a 'Downtown Look'. Heck Fountain walk has cars driving around inside it to make it 'feel downtowny' even though it is not.

But even this region has had various real downtowns for many years. If you want to see local examples of real downtowns [[not counting those with buildings over 20 stories tall), feel free to visit Royal Oak, Plymouth, Northville, Grosse Pointe, Wyandotte, Birmingham or Ann Arbor [[just a few examples though!).

And we should go back on topic before this turns into an "outdoor vs. indoor mall" debate.

And here we arrive at page two!

[DetroitPlanner]

But even this region has had various real downtowns for many years. If you want to see local examples of real downtowns [[not counting those with buildings over 20 stories tall), feel free to visit Royal Oak, Plymouth, Northville, Grosse Pointe, Wyandotte, Birmingham or Ann Arbor [[just a few examples though!).

And we should go back on topic before this turns into an "outdoor vs. indoor mall" debate.

And here we arrive at page two!

I don't consider those to be downtowns but more food courts for drunk yuppies. Not much retail left i those places, they have been replaced by bars or fru fru diners. I look for two things to judge heath of a downtown: can I buy underwear there, and is there a hardware store. I also look above the first floor to see if the offices are full and what types of tennants fill them. Lawyers show stability while massage parlors and tattoo parlors are more fly by night. Of those mentioned Ann Arbor is the closest but you can't get underwear there and it has a load of fru fru dining establishments.

[nain rouge]

I'm gonna have to agree with DetroitPlanner. Novi Fountain Walk is about as interesting as any of our downtowns, outside of Ann Arbor and Detroit. But even then, what's Campus Martius besides a more "authentic" Fountain Walk? True urban living is dead in 99.9% of this country. Only a few cities really function in the way big cities did during the urban revolution.

[Novine]

"I look for two things to judge heath of a downtown: can I buy underwear there, and is there a hardware store. I also look above the first floor to see if the offices are full and what types of tennants fill them."

Strange definition. Whatever one thinks of downtown Northville, most of the retail is independent and the only chain in town is "Starbucks" and there's plenty of occupied apartments on the second floors of the buildings downtown.

[Hermod]

I don't consider those to be downtowns but more food courts for drunk yuppies. Not much retail left i those places, they have been replaced by bars or fru fru diners. I look for two things to judge heath of a downtown: can I buy underwear there, and is there a hardware store. I also look above the first floor to see if the offices are full and what types of tennants fill them. Lawyers show stability while massage parlors and tattoo parlors are more fly by night. Of those mentioned Ann Arbor is the closest but you can't get underwear there and it has a load of fru fru dining establishments.

After my last visit to Michigan [[Nov 2012), I started a thread on this subject that [[after walking around) downtown Rochester, Birmingham, and Ferndale
that these "vibrant" downtowns are full of "shoppes" as opposed to "shops" [[where you can really buy something). If you want to "shop" you have to go to M-59. If you want to "shoppe" you go to one of the little Potemkin Villages.

[noise]

I don't consider those to be downtowns but more food courts for drunk yuppies. Not much retail left i those places, they have been replaced by bars or fru fru diners. I look for two things to judge heath of a downtown: can I buy underwear there, and is there a hardware store. I also look above the first floor to see if the offices are full and what types of tennants fill them. Lawyers show stability while massage parlors and tattoo parlors are more fly by night. Of those mentioned Ann Arbor is the closest but you can't get underwear there and it has a load of fru fru dining establishments.

If I wasn't buying underwear in downtown Ann Arbor all of those years, what was I buying?!?

[Bham1982]

But even this region has had various real downtowns for many years. If you want to see local examples of real downtowns [[not counting those with buildings over 20 stories tall), feel free to visit Royal Oak, Plymouth, Northville, Grosse Pointe, Wyandotte, Birmingham or Ann Arbor [[just a few examples though!).

There are plenty of vibrant downtowns, but they aren't in competition with malls, because they aren't retailing centers anymore.

For all this talk about "booming" Birmingham, there's barely any retail left. There used to be Jacobsons, Crowleys, and tons of retail; now unless you want designer olive oil or gluten-free puppy snacks, you're out of luck.

[noise]

There are plenty of vibrant downtowns, but they aren't in competition with malls, because they aren't retailing centers anymore.

For all this talk about "booming" Birmingham, there's barely any retail left. There used to be Jacobsons, Crowleys, and tons of retail; now unless you want designer olive oil or gluten-free puppy snacks, you're out of luck.

Weren't you the one complaining that you couldn't buy jeans in Birmingham, when you clearly can? Then you moved the goal posts to say you couldn't buy the specific jeans you wanted?

Just because your tastes aren't being met in a downtown region doesn't mean it's not meeting the needs of others.

[Bham1982]

Weren't you the one complaining that you couldn't buy jeans in Birmingham, when you clearly can? Then you moved the goal posts to say you couldn't buy the specific jeans you wanted?

Just because your tastes aren't being met in a downtown region doesn't mean it's not meeting the needs of others.

Not sure what you're arguing here. We're talking about retail centers. Downtowns are no longer retail centers. Birmingham has very little retail. Royal Oak has almost none. Re. jeans, there is no place in Birmingham to buy normal jeans. There used to be Gap, multiple department stores and an army-navy store.

It has nothing to do with "meeting people's tastes", it has to do with no more retail. Downtowns are 90% restaurants & bars these days. They're no longer competing with malls.

[noise]

Not sure what you're arguing here. We're talking about retail centers. Downtowns are no longer retail centers. Birmingham has very little retail. Royal Oak has almost none. Re. jeans, there is no place in Birmingham to buy normal jeans.

It has nothing to do with "meeting people's tastes", it has to do with no more retail. Downtowns are 90% restaurants & bars these days. They're no longer competing with malls.

What are "normal" jeans?

For many people, Birmingham does a good job of meeting most of their retail needs. You can't discuss retail without discussing what people want.

[nain rouge]

Face it, we're too sprawled out and car-centric to have real urban downtowns. In the old days, downtowns functioned as a necessity for local residents. Now, most are historical shopping districts that resemble Downtown Disney more than anything else.

[Bham1982]

What are "normal" jeans?

For many people, Birmingham does a good job of meeting most of their retail needs. You can't discuss retail without discussing what people want.

On what basis do you think that "downtown Birmingham "does a good job of meeting most of their retail needs"?

I don't know a single person that relies on downtown Birmingham for most of their retail needs. That would be pretty much impossible, unless your retail needs consisted heavily of purple stuffed animals or rare German furniture. Jacobson's is now office space. Crowleys is now a movie theater. Gap and Express are now restaurants.

Somerset Mall lies just outside of Birmingham city limits. Same goes for Target, Meijer, Walmart, Home Depot, Old Navy, TJ Maxx and Marshalls. These are the places where people shop. If you added up all the retail space in downtown Birmingham, it wouldn't match even one big box store.

[Novine]

This sounds like a fairly weak argument. What downtown neighborhoods support the breadth of retail that some of you are arguing represents a real "downtown". Hardware stores? Places you can buy underwear? I'm sure in most US major cities, you can find some of these retail locations. But how many neighborhoods in those cities actually support that range of retail? Very few I would suspect. From the time I've spent in various US cities, I've been to a number of thriving urban neighborhoods and I can't recall seeing any hardware stores and very few places selling "normal" jeans or underwear.

[ghettopalmetto]

This sounds like a fairly weak argument. What downtown neighborhoods support the breadth of retail that some of you are arguing represents a real "downtown". Hardware stores? Places you can buy underwear? I'm sure in most US major cities, you can find some of these retail locations. But how many neighborhoods in those cities actually support that range of retail? Very few I would suspect. From the time I've spent in various US cities, I've been to a number of thriving urban neighborhoods and I can't recall seeing any hardware stores and very few places selling "normal" jeans or underwear.

The hardware/underwear argument is just another way to move the goalposts and make excuses. Conversely, if a neighborhood retail strip had a hardware store and underwear shop, it wouldn't be "real" because it wouldn't be downtown.

Some people are just never happy.

[Bham1982]

This sounds like a fairly weak argument. What downtown neighborhoods support the breadth of retail that some of you are arguing represents a real "downtown".

The point people are making is that these used to be characteristics of these downtowns, and are no longer. 15 years ago, things like hardware stores, jeans stores, card stores, etc. were common to places like Royal Oak, and are now quite rare.

And that's why 15 years ago, downtowns were battling malls for retail dollars. When Somerset expanded, it had huge repercussions for downtown Birmingham. Now Somerset is irrelevent to Birmingham, because they no longer compete.

Outside of the Michigan [[and really most the Midwest), I see plenty of urban neighborhoods with things like hardware stores. They've very common in retail strips you see in various urban areas, from Brooklyn to Portland to New Orleans.

[ghettopalmetto]

The point people are making is that these used to be characteristics of these downtowns, and are no longer. 15 years ago, things like hardware stores, jeans stores, card stores, etc. were common to places like Royal Oak, and are now quite rare.

That's not a function of the downtowns themselves, as it is a function of the retailing industry in general. We now have enormous corporate behemoths with 100,000 sf big box stores, using economies of scale to put price pressures on their suppliers. There isn't any way a small local shop can compete with that. Retailers in downtown Ann Arbor figured out long ago they couldn't compete with Briarwood Mall on prices, and so started offering a different product mix.

For those unhappy with this status quo, I'd encourage you to skip the chains and support your local businesses.

[Novine]

"Outside of the Michigan [[and really most the Midwest), I see plenty of urban neighborhoods with things like hardware stores."

And? My point is that the presence of a hardware store tells us next to nothing about the success of an urban area. Plenty of successful ones don't have them and having one doesn't mean that it's thriving.

[mtburb]

And we shall now return to topic! Anyways, does anyone recall a Borders ever being in GLX?

[Hermod]

And we shall now return to topic! Anyways, does anyone recall a Borders ever being in GLX?

It was on an "outparcel" on the NW corner of the site. It lasted till the massive Borders meltdown. The folks out in that neck of the woods really miss it because they don't have a Barnes & Noble close by.

[DTWflyer]

And I thought I was the only one who used the "GLX" abbreviation! Well, maybe both of us and whoever else posted in this thread should someday start a role-playing game that takes place in GLX in January 1999! In fact, we may even include a celebration about that year [[like what Prince predicted way back in 1983!)

Anyways, do you remember the date Great Lakes Crossing Drive [[the street at the southern end of the mall that actually even dips into the city of Pontiac about halfway through near the CN railroad crossing) was built?

I remember that the entire construction of Great Lakes Crossing occurred pretty rapidly and it went up fast.

I remember many of the road improvements in the area:

Exit 83 / Joslyn Rd. was expanded when GM built the Orion Plant in the early 80s. They moved the ramps to/from SB I-75 further south of the interchange, widened Joslyn, and added a new ramp from SB Joslyn to NB I-75.

Brown Rd. used to just be a dirt road. They paved and widened the section between Joslyn & M-24 when GM built the plant. There used to be a sweeping curve to go from Joslyn to Brown, primarily designed for truck traffic to the plant. Brown. Rd didn't go straight through the intersection, and it was offset by the railroad. Not like the current set-up now where the railroad goes right through the middle of the Joslyn / Brown Rd. intersection.

Brown Rd. between Joslyn and Baldwin continued to be a sleepy dirt road until the big box boom hit in the late 90s on the north side of I-75.

There always was a road where Great Lakes Crossing road cuts through between Joslyn and Baldwin. Before, it was just a tiny dirt road, and was an extension of N. Lake Angelus Road. When then built the mall, they obviously paved, widened, and changed the alignment of the road.

The entire site required a lot of fill to get it level. I know there was a bunch of controversy about wetlands on and adjacent to the site.

[JBMcB]

And we shall now return to topic! Anyways, does anyone recall a Borders ever being in GLX?

There was a Borders Express over by the food court right up until all the Borders liquidated.

When it first opened there was also a seconds/surplus book store, similar to books warehouse, or whatever those outlet bookstores are called now. Just a plain, big room with folding card tables filled with piles of books.

[Hermod]

When it first opened there was also a seconds/surplus book store, similar to books warehouse, or whatever those outlet bookstores are called now. Just a plain, big room with folding card tables filled with piles of books.

That moved over to the strip mall kitty corner across the I75/Baldwin intersection from GLX. It is near the Five Below store.

[compn]

if you havent been to the mall in years, or have never been, do not take the main exit. take the one before the main exit. the main highway exit is just full of stupid outlet stores + traffic lights and its a real hassle to get to the mall.

i always took the back exit up that windy road thru the wetlands.

but after gameworks went out, i havent been going up there much.

[noise]

On what basis do you think that "downtown Birmingham "does a good job of meeting most of their retail needs"?

I don't know a single person that relies on downtown Birmingham for most of their retail needs. That would be pretty much impossible, unless your retail needs consisted heavily of purple stuffed animals or rare German furniture. Jacobson's is now office space. Crowleys is now a movie theater. Gap and Express are now restaurants.

Somerset Mall lies just outside of Birmingham city limits. Same goes for Target, Meijer, Walmart, Home Depot, Old Navy, TJ Maxx and Marshalls. These are the places where people shop. If you added up all the retail space in downtown Birmingham, it wouldn't match even one big box store.

On the basis that you are the type of person who needs a big box store with "normal" jeans. I am not.

[5speedz34]

I went to Marist Academy/Notre Dame Prep from '97-01 which is a few miles away. When it opened it was a huge deal for my classmates and I. It was the 'place to be' and even living in Macomb County it was soooo far away, it's about 30 minutes. The amount of sprawl that popped up after that is mind-numbing. Utter myopic urban planning. Haven't been inside of it in probably 10+ yrs.

What was different about Star theaters before AMC bought them?