Downtown has thousands of interns this summer

[Baselinepunk]

The six criteria is broken all the time. Your right; not for profits / public have dabbled in this practice as well.

Just a cursory search on the google/bing:

"On Feb. 1, the law firm Outten & Golden filed a class-action lawsuit against the Hearst Corporation, which owns Harper’s Bazaar, on behalf of Wang and any other unpaid and underpaid intern who worked at the company over the past six years. The lawsuit alleges that, among other things, Hearst violated federal and state labor laws by having Wang work as many as 55 hours a week without compensation.

Read more: http://business.time.com/2012/05/02/...#ixzz2YYSZj6kJ"

"Along with the increased use of unpaid interns, there has also been an increase in litigation brought in both the entertainment and publishing industries by individuals who claim to have been misclassified as interns when they should have, instead, been classified as employees. This type of high-profile litigation has highlighted the broad ranging issues/land mines associated with employers using unpaid interns."

http://www.akerman.com/documents/res.asp?id=1707


"Internships are legitimate and within the bounds of labor laws if they meet FLSA's six criteria. However, there are cases where not all six of them were met which resulted in law violations such as replacing or displacing existing full-time employees with former interns. The widespread opinion is that despite the existing labor law some employers do exploit interns independent of academic level, and this is induced by high unemployment and a poor state of the economy. Additionally, some companies are not using internships the way they are intended. Internships are supposed to be recruiting pipelines to bring in new talent. Instead they are being used as a way to free labor where employers are cycling through interns without any intent to hire them on a full-time basis. "



http://www.investopedia.com/articles...nternships.asp


So, while it's neat that all of those kiddies are hanging out downtown; it's just more window dressing for PR sake. And with the huge rise in rent downtown -- these kids can't afford to live down there.

[iheartthed]

It would be very rare for any financial service company to get away with not paying interns. There are six criteria the Dept of Labor uses, at a minimum, to evaluate whether an intern can go unpaid. Most financial service firms would quickly fail #4 [[The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern) because they would bill out at X, while paying their intern X/20. [[i.e. immediate benefit to the P/L). It would be much more common for nonprofit/social service type places to get away with unpaid labor as they might be able to argue they can't clearly identify how the work of the intern benefits them. I dare you to publicly identify one financial service company [[e.g. public accounting firm, public law firm, financial service company) that does not pay interns for said reasons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ships-illegal/

Not only do they get paid, they get paid at the same rate as an entry level professional in the same company. I'd be surprised if any intern at a financial service company was being paid less than $25/hour, even in Detroit.

[belleislerunner]

Interns actually make sense from a business perspective and an employee development perspective. Let's use a public accounting firm as an example. If you work on the tax side, you are most busy from Jan-April - so if you hire your interns to work those four months, you can hire them at an attractive rate [[e.g. $20/hr) and pay them time and half for overtime. The interns benefit from getting hands on training/experience under pressure and an attractive pay. When it's time for a full time job - they already have experience and know what a job entails. An employee gets the benefit of added staff during the busiest time without the expense of benefits/401[[k). Furthermore, the company doesn't have to lay off workers every May 1 and bring them back in January, decreasing the morale of the full time workers. The city gets the benefit of interns bringing their suburban tax dollars and spending them on shopping/dining/entertainment/gas etc in the city. Many of these interns [[i.e. Quicken) are housed in the WSU dorms over the summer so it gives them exposure to city life, city living. Which helps to desensitize them to many of their preconceived notions about Detroit. Other friends/relatives come and visit them in the city - thus breaking down more barriers/spending more money. It's a great productive cycle.

[Eber Brock Ward]

So you know five people with those credentials? Note that I said "substantial".

Five of the eleven tenants in my three-unit building in Brooklyn have those credentials.

Not discounting your opinion -- but I was working at a firm in Detroit where everyone had that pedigree, yet only two of the 30+ members of the firm lived in the city proper. And this was in the midst of Broderick taking reservations. I made my case very clear to my colleagues that the city was safe, I enjoyed my lifestyle, etc. etc...

The issue had nothing to do with neither supply nor demand. Matter of fact, most of them didn't even spend their weekends in Detroit, opting instead to spend time with their friends in other cities. But I'd say the momentum has [[slightly) shifted toward a greater acceptance of downtown Detroit as a place to live.

I do note that you said "substantial." But until the supply issue resolves itself, we are at saturation with respect to how substantial the movement can become, and that's my point.

BTW, how long ago did you move? You seem disgruntled because you moved just as things were starting, as evidenced by what you post here and by how you talk shit about the city in other venues [[unless someone else is posting under "michimoby").

I ask that because the most substantial changes have taken place over the last year or so. Campus Martius this summer vs. last is like night and day. Same with the Riverwalk at any given day or time.

I stand by my point that it's a supply issue, even if we disagree on how much pent up demand there is.

I suppose we'll know the answer as more and more mid- to higher-level buildings come online [[Whitney, new Merchant's Row, etc.).

[michimoby]

BTW, how long ago did you move? You seem disgruntled because you moved just as things were starting, as evidenced by what you post here and by how you talk shit about the city in other venues [[unless someone else is posting under "michimoby").

It looks like I have a fan club. That's nice.

Why does my departure date from Detroit have anything to do with this? Oh, it's because a wrong answer will invalidate my viewpoint. That makes sense: the best way to diffuse a conflicting opinion is to slander the messenger.

I'd like to respond to your supply comment [[even though I don't think we're that far apart on the issue), but I'm pretty much done discussing this topic after you defined my perspective [[which I hope is thought-out and worthy of discussion) as simply "talking shit".

[Eber Brock Ward]

Quite simply, if you moved away more than a year or two ago, your boots-on-the-ground view is outdated.

[Baselinepunk]

"Interns actually make sense from a business perspective and an employee development perspective."

Of course; it makes a lot of sense to get someone to do the work of an employee for free, or pennies on the dollar.

You keep throwing this 20/hr figure. That's not what is out here right now. You've got a lot of speculation and "let's look at it this way" with nothing else to support it.

The days of the intern as you would like it to be, or was, does not exist anymore. Organizations and companies are looking to intern to cut costs and maximize profit. Not for profits are doing it to stay afloat as well.

I was very lucky that one of my internships led to a temporary part time contract position that is up at the end of the month after four months of employment. I'm super lucky that my pay just about covered my gas costs, too. This was my third internship and the only one that paid.

[michimoby]

Quite simply, if you moved away more than a year or two ago, your boots-on-the-ground view is outdated.

Does three months count?

[TexasT]

Does three months count?

You moved away three months ago and you didn't know of many top level grads moving to the city? Did you venture out and meet many people? Maybe because I'm a transplant, I just meet more transplants. It's not everyone I know but I definitely am aware of them. I'm trying to help a fellow UVirginia grad move here now [[problem is, she's having a hard time finding housing).

I'm not sure the point of comparing Brooklyn to Detroit. Chicago doesn't compare to NYC's draw, but I'm not sure that's indicative of it not being an attractive candidate.

[michimoby]

You moved away three months ago and you didn't know of many top level grads moving to the city? It's not everyone I know but I definitely am aware of them. I'm trying to help a fellow UVirginia grad move here now [[problem is, she's having a hard time finding housing).

I worked with many top-level grads, Texas. My cohort at my firm consisted of alums from Ross, HBS, Columbia, Wharton, Yale, U of Chicago, and Michigan State. We had a Stanford GSB alum transfer from the Chicago office.

When I stated that the number was not "substantial", I was particularly referring to the volume of students from my graduating class that made Detroit home. It was just slightly in the double digits out of a class of 400-plus.

That year, I was the only person that chose to live downtown in my firm's cohort. Subsequent years, there's usually 1 or 2 of a cohort of 10-12 new hires that chooses to do so. Granted, the office is in Troy, but...there's plenty of reverse commuters from Chicago and NYC that make the trip to the suburbs/Newark.

What's lamentable, really, is that nearly my entire cohort has moved away to other cities after only a few years, and not because of housing. The question of longevity is one we're not discussing here, but I know a substantial number of top alums that have left after a brief period in Detroit as well.

[TexasT]

Yes, I could imagine that most grads working in the 'burbs wouldn't call the city home. I wouldn't even consider working in the 'burbs - I'd imagine a Troy office is a bit self-selecting against those who vastly prefer a city [[I know few downtown Detroiters who work in the burbs, and knew few Chicagoans who worked in the burbs when I lived there, although it wasn't unheard of).

That being said, I think it's a bit of a moot point since I disagree with your premise that the turning point so to speak will be when top MBAs flock to the city. Detroit isn't top 10 in wealth, population, or GDP, so it's not surprising that it isn't top 5 or 10 in attracting top MBAs, which is where it sounds like you think it should be [[?). That's not really my expectation when we come out of the other side either...I guess it depends on your perspective though. I'm not really comparing Detroit to Chicago or NYC in terms of how well it attracts Wharton grads and the like.

I think the turning point will be when it starts attracting more college grads period. When it won't be a social experiment or "urban pioneering" [[as I was accused of when I moved here end of last summer) to live here.

[michimoby]

Yes, I could imagine that most grads working in the 'burbs wouldn't call the city home. I wouldn't even consider working in the 'burbs - I'd imagine a Troy office is a bit self-selecting against those who vastly prefer a city [[I know few downtown Detroiters who work in the burbs, and knew few Chicagoans who worked in the burbs when I lived there, although it wasn't unheard of).

That being said, I think it's a bit of a moot point since I disagree with your premise that the turning point so to speak will be when top MBAs flock to the city. Detroit isn't top 10 in wealth, population, or GPD, so it's not surprising that it isn't top 5 or 10 in attracting top MBAs, which is where it sounds like you think it should be [[?). That's not really my expectation when we come out of the other side either...I guess it depends on your perspective though. I'm not really comparing Detroit to Chicago or NYC in terms of how well it attracts Wharton grads and the like.

A good first step is looking at how the city is drawing grads from their own backyard. My firm had an extremely difficult time trying to attract Michigan alums, so that's a good baseline from which to assess the city's growth.

Your expectations of what Detroit should be are couched in reality, and that's a good thing - mine are partially influenced by a small segment of the community that suggested Detroit's firm establishment as the second coming of Silicon Valley. For that to take place, the country's top grads need to move to Detroit in combination with a whole host of ecosystem adjustments.

The more simple conclusion - and one that will allow Detroit to converge toward a stable approach to growth - is that the community touting this effort is blowing a bit of cherry-flavored smoke...and our expectations all need to be grounded in the state of affairs within the city at large.

[TexasT]

A good first step is looking at how the city is drawing grads from their own backyard. My firm had an extremely difficult time trying to attract Michigan alums, so that's a good baseline from which to assess the city's growth.

Your expectations of what Detroit should be are couched in reality, and that's a good thing - mine are partially influenced by a small segment of the community that suggested Detroit's firm establishment as the second coming of Silicon Valley. For that to take place, the country's top grads need to move to Detroit in combination with a whole host of ecosystem adjustments.

The more simple conclusion - and one that will allow Detroit to converge toward a stable approach to growth - is that the community touting this effort is blowing a bit of cherry-flavored smoke...and our expectations all need to be grounded in the state of affairs within the city at large.

Not being a native Michigander, I have no memories - personal or inherited - of Detroit as this amazing urban center on par with Chicago or NYC either, which colors my opinions of and anticipations for the city compared to folks from here and who have parents and grandparents who are from here. To me, Detroit is what it is [[and I really enjoy it for that as I chose to move here over any other city) and I've never experienced it as anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic but I guess I look to places like Pittsburgh or Elmwood Village in Buffalo [[which I just visited and loved) when I think of my expectations for Detroit. I do understand it has some very good inherent attributes that put it at the top of cities 50-100 years ago though [[international border, nearby top university, river/industry, etc), and those will play a role in any resurgence that is to come.

[Baselinepunk]

"A good first step is looking at how the city is drawing grads from their own backyard. My firm had an extremely difficult time trying to attract Michigan alums, so that's a good baseline from which to assess the city's growth"

This newly minted grad will not turn down something that takes me away from the area, and I'm actively looking. Like to stay in Michigan but that's a pretty loose requirement at this point now. Too much investment, not enough return for my life here in this area to be so damn loyal to this place -- it borders on insanity.

[corktownyuppie]

BTW - - praying for the MBA's to come and save us is really a silly thing to wish for.

When Detroit was a powerhouse, one of the top 5 US Cities by population, and the State of Michigan was one of the wealthiest states in the union, Detroit was home to the some of the most innovative, world class financial institutions in the world. College graduates from all around the country would compete for highly sought after positions at Detroit Bank and Trust. The Guardian building was known as the "Cathedral of Finance".

If you want to call MBAs silly, I won't argue with you on that point. My only argument is that the world has changed and we [[Detroit) haven't changed with it. Someone else posted about how 20 years from now there will be a major economic crisis as the population further divides into unskilled- to low-skilled workers and then the knowledge-based workers and the robots/machines which replaced all of the low-skilled workers.

I'm reluctant to use the dramatic terms that he/she used, but the sentiment is accurate. For 50 years we have transitioned from a muscle-based economy to brain-based economy, and not only has Detroit failed to change with it...but culturally speaking, many are people deploying a strategy of fighting the change instead of adapting to change.

You're right that MBAs aren't going to save us. But what will save us is changing our culture so that MBAs are assets instead of enemies.