Heard the Hudson Site Plan Today.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

Malls are not urban retail districts

These places are too urban! Besides he said 'thriving retail districts' not urban retail districts. You will find lots of places with dead downtowns that have good public transportation. These are all independent variables.

What you need to have downtown are people in order to have thriving retail. You just happen to have good transit because there is a demand. Disney world has thriving retail and thriving free transit. It does not have thriving retail because of transit, it has it because it has people [[demand).

**Sharnelle** · July-09-13, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by mkhopper

Is a mall with 80+ retailers really viable? We can't keep malls open in many various areas yet we're going to have one in the heart of downtown?

I'm all for renwal and retail is what we need down there, but wouldn't be better to work on all of the unused retail space we currently have and get it up, rolling and sustainable before throwing more empty space into the mix.

Excellent questions. Unless you start with an extremely successful built up area like Manhattan, malls tend to drain the life out of adjacent streets. In general they are boring, they add zero character, and they are fading as a concept for several reasons that are worth considering in terms of this site:

http://business.time.com/2012/02/06/...ng-receptions/

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/job...ing-mall/4252/

**rb336** · July-09-13, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

These places are too urban! Besides he said 'thriving retail districts' not urban retail districts. You will find lots of places with dead downtowns that have good public transportation. These are all independent variables.

What you need to have downtown are people in order to have thriving retail. You just happen to have good transit because there is a demand. Disney world has thriving retail and thriving free transit. It does not have thriving retail because of transit, it has it because it has people [[demand).

Cities with thriving retail districts. A mall is a mall. It is a separate entity. A retail district is a district integrated into the city proper, not a separate, set off bit. When you say "city retail district," most people think of something like the Miracle Mile or downtown Birmingham, not 12 Oaks

**bailey** · July-09-13, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

Cities with thriving retail districts. A mall is a mall. It is a separate entity. A retail district is a district integrated into the city proper, not a separate, set off bit. When you say "city retail district," most people think of something like the Miracle Mile or downtown Birmingham, not 12 Oaks

As cynical as I am... seeing what Gilbert has been doing thus far, I'm going to cut him some slack and assume that he too is aiming for Michigan Ave vs. Somerset Collection. Just saying.

Now if it were Illitch's plan? Wintergarden II.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

Cities with thriving retail districts. A mall is a mall. It is a separate entity. A retail district is a district integrated into the city proper, not a separate, set off bit. When you say "city retail district," most people think of something like the Miracle Mile or downtown Birmingham, not 12 Oaks

I never mentioned mall names. Novi has several developers with successful stores in one district. 12 Oaks happens to be one of many. The same is true for Troy and Auburn Hills.

There is a many landlord/more tennant thing going on. A downtown will function exactly the same. With a few developers owning the space each having several rentals.

**iheartthed** · July-09-13, 11:01 AM

We're all just speculating but I doubt a "mall" is planned for the site. There really isn't enough room on the footprint for even an "urban mall". It'll probably be a few spaces for some boutiques, and maybe one destination store such as an Apple Store. I doubt there'll be more than 20 stores total on the site.

**The Real McCoy** · July-09-13, 11:58 AM

Would be really sweet if the development has a multi-plex theater.

**bailey** · July-09-13, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Real McCoy

Would be really sweet if the development has a multi-plex theater.

you mean like the one in the RenCen down the street?

**southen** · July-09-13, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

you mean like the one in the RenCen down the street?

i dont know what that is but to call it a theater is a disservice to actual theaters. perhaps something will go in that is a bit bigger than a home projector...

**gumby** · July-09-13, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

you mean like the one in the RenCen down the street?

No I imagine he means one that is a lot better than that joke of a theater.

**rb336** · July-09-13, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I never mentioned mall names. Novi has several developers with successful stores in one district. 12 Oaks happens to be one of many. The same is true for Troy and Auburn Hills.

There is a many landlord/more tennant thing going on. A downtown will function exactly the same. With a few developers owning the space each having several rentals.

talk about absurd.. "i didn't mention mall names?" seriously? "Novi has several developers with successful stores in one district." they are called "malls" and they are NOT "city retail districts." In fact, most malls are not zoned "retail" but rather as PUDs [[Planned Use Developments). If you don't see the difference between a mall and a retail district, well, no one can help you

**bailey** · July-09-13, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

No I imagine he means one that is a lot better than that joke of a theater.

if there were a market for mega-plex movie theaters in Detroit...wouldn't it have been filled?

**hybridy** · July-09-13, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

if there were a market for mega-plexe movie theaters in Detroit...wouldn't it have been filled?

a downtown megaplex would thrive, but the operators would have to deal with lots of 'security issues'. any movie theatre component will be geared to a high income user with id/curfew component [[iPic, Emagine)

ie: milwaukee
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=6518,108450

**Hypestyles** · July-09-13, 02:38 PM

...where's magic johnson and any other urban-centric entrepreneur/developers?

hopefully the official announcement will be made soon, and it will be a pleasant design.

**Zug** · July-09-13, 03:32 PM

I think there's a difference between a downtown mall and a suburban mall. It is true that there is a such thing as too many downtown malls...however, suburban malls are a different beast. Just because 3 malls couldn't survive together in Livonia doesn't mean that downtown could not sustain a mall...or that there would be no demand. I actually think a modest sized mall could be helpful, especially since Gilbert seems dedicated to having his development spread throughout downtown. A centralized mall could serve as a destination or meeting place. Heck, even if the mall was mostly a food court, it would serve a purpose as a meeting point. If Cleveland can support Tower City Center [[as well as the less impressive Galleria), I'm sure we could support a single small mall downtown. Most big cities have some sort of downtown mall.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

...where's magic johnson and any other urban-centric entrepreneur/developers?

hopefully the official announcement will be made soon, and it will be a pleasant design.

Johnson has his eyes set on the State Fairgrounds.

**esp1986** · July-09-13, 04:53 PM

I know Gilbert doesn't own all of Merchant's Row, but it looks like he at least has the rights to the street level spaces in quite a few buildings between State St. and Grand Circus Park. So we could very well see somewhat of an 'open-air' mall [[same developer/builder). I believe I read somewhere that there hasn't been an enclosed mall built in the US in about 10 years, but there have been a lot of open-air malls. It sure seems like that's Gilbert's goal here. He wants to have walkable streets, an enclosed mall would defy that. My guess would be that the 'retail' spaces in any development would simply be ground floor spaces, or maybe a couple floors to lure a department store, even if it was a number of spaces. Even in the Water Tower in Chicago, you don't see very many people on the uppermost floors [[6,7).

**gthomas** · July-09-13, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

I know Gilbert doesn't own all of Merchant's Row, but it looks like he at least has the rights to the street level spaces in quite a few buildings between State St. and Grand Circus Park. So we could very well see somewhat of an 'open-air' mall [[same developer/builder). I believe I read somewhere that there hasn't been an enclosed mall built in the US in about 10 years, but there have been a lot of open-air malls. It sure seems like that's Gilbert's goal here. He wants to have walkable streets, an enclosed mall would defy that. My guess would be that the 'retail' spaces in any development would simply be ground floor spaces, or maybe a couple floors to lure a department store, even if it was a number of spaces. Even in the Water Tower in Chicago, you don't see very many people on the uppermost floors [[6,7).

Similar to this in Salt Lake City [[City Creek Center)

**gthomas** · July-09-13, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Johnson has his eyes set on the State Fairgrounds.

You're right.

**rb336** · July-09-13, 10:21 PM

I believe I read somewhere that there hasn't been an enclosed mall built in the US in about 10 years, but there have been a lot of open-air malls

They aren't malls, they are "lifestyle centers."

**stasu1213** · July-10-13, 07:53 AM

Would the buildings be constructed on top of the beams protruding out of the ground or would those beams be extracted?

**esp1986** · July-10-13, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Would the buildings be constructed on top of the beams protruding out of the ground or would those beams be extracted?

Those beams are part of the foundation. The building would be built on top of them, as they would be needed for support.

**hybridy** · July-10-13, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

Those beams are part of the foundation. The building would be built on top of them, as they would be needed for support.

Quick structural lesson:

Beams= horizontal
Columns= vertical

Danke

**wolverine** · July-10-13, 08:04 PM

If it were to have a heavy amount of retail it would likely be designed as an atrium shopping center, not a mall. Probably multi-level 2-3 floors with an atrium filled with escaltor and elevator banks serving big box on upper floors, possibly a food court and smaller liner retail at the ground level facing Woodward. Probably similar to the Canal Mall in Chicago but instead able to support towers above.

Building the retail levels alone is risky so they'll need to throw a speculative tower on top of either office or residential to validate the entire development.

**hudkina** · July-11-13, 10:54 AM

The 80+ stores number refers to the entire Woodward corridor, not this particular spot. Assuming, that the average store footprint would be about 5,000 sq. ft. You would be lucky to get 9 outlets on the first floor of the Hudson's site. Assuming many retailers might go with smaller store footprints, you'd be lucky to get 12 outlets.

I'd assume that the retail would be exclusively on the Woodward side. I'd leave the Farmer side for the office and residential lobbies, loading docks, service entries, etc. You might be able to squeeze in a couple of small retail slots on the Farmer side that might cater to the office workers [[think small coffee shop or lunch spot.) The second floor could easily fit a CityTarget. The average CityTarget is roughly 80,000-100,000 sq. ft. You could easily fit an 80,000+ CityTarget on the second floor.