Heard the Hudson Site Plan Today.

**dtowncitylover** · July-08-13, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Urban malls have a dismal track record in the U.S., and there's no chance of an urban mall in downtown Detroit.

They often fail in far stronger cities. Ever seen the Block 37 disaster in downtown Chicago?

But on the flip side you have The Shops at North Bridge, Water Tower Place and 900 N. Michigan which is full of high end stores anchored by Nordstrom, Macy's and Bloomingdale's, respectively. You also have One Canal Place in New Orleans and Westfield Horton Plaza in San Diego.

Now I won't be the first to advocate for a shopping mall downtown, but the reason why RenCen's shopping plaza failed was because it was near nothing else. At least this plan, albeit just a rumor, is actually integrated into the rest of downtown.

**Bham1982** · July-08-13, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

But on the flip side you have The Shops at North Bridge, Water Tower Place and 900 N. Michigan which is full of high end stores anchored by Nordstrom, Macy's and Bloomingdale's, respectively. You also have One Canal Place in New Orleans and Westfield Horton Plaza in San Diego.

Of those urban malls, only Water Tower Place is super successful. North Bridge does ok, but the other three struggle. Horton Plaza, Canal Place and 900 Michigan all have serious problems with vacancies. And even Water Tower lost Lord & Taylor, and had problems filling their upper floors.

For example, Horton Plaza is currently being redeveloped, with failed department stores being demolished in favor of parks.

In terms of non-struggling urban malls, we're talking a very, very short list in the U.S. But almost every U.S. city has tried. Heck, here in MI, we built urban malls in Battle Creek, Flint, Grand Rapids, Muskegan, and Detroit, All failed, and only RenCen [[to some extent) exists.

**Detroitnerd** · July-08-13, 03:16 PM

Instead of having lots of retail in a mall that's integrated into downtown, why not just ...

Have lots of retail downtown?

**48205to24** · July-08-13, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Instead of having lots of retail in a mall that's integrated into downtown, why not just ...

Have lots of retail downtown?

As long as there is variety and things are shops are fairly close to each other, no one wants to buy the outfit downtown then go to midtown for the purse in shoes [[shot out to sole sisters). Its an option but shouldnt be a requirement. You also dont want to pay $2 at parking meter downtown and then $2 parking in midtown.

**TexasT** · July-08-13, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

As long as there is variety and things are shops are fairly close to each other, no one wants to buy the outfit downtown then go to midtown for the purse in shoes [[shot out to sole sisters). Its an option but shouldnt be a requirement. You also dont want to pay $2 at parking meter downtown and then $2 parking in midtown.

That's what the train will be for.

**48205to24** · July-08-13, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

That's what the train will be for.

Hopefully we can get more retail shops sooner than that.

**Detroitnerd** · July-08-13, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

That's what the train will be for.

Yeah, that's for sure. It's very hard to convince people that this is just normal life in a lot of American cities, and in much of the world. "What? I can't take my 1,500-pound gas buggy on every single errand?"

Other places, people say, "Thank goodness I don't have to take a 1,500-pound gas buggy on every single errand!"

**gthomas** · July-08-13, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

Hopefully we can get more retail shops sooner than that.

Some might open, but most retailer know that construction on Woodward [[soon) start for M-1/MDOT until 2014/2015. It's more feasible to open when construction is done and M-1 is up and running.

**marshamusic** · July-08-13, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

As long as there is variety and things are shops are fairly close to each other, no one wants to buy the outfit downtown then go to midtown for the purse in shoes [[shot out to sole sisters). Its an option but shouldnt be a requirement. You also dont want to pay $2 at parking meter downtown and then $2 parking in midtown.

Sole Sisters closed last month; though I totally agree with your point.

**Scottathew** · July-08-13, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

" will be connected with a mall."

Did I hear mall, I hope they get the right mix of retail

I hope that the mall will have storefronts on Woodward.

**Detroitnerd** · July-08-13, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

I hope that the mall will have storefronts on Woodward.

Not sure how that can be the case, since that is what traditional downtown retail looks like.

**rb336** · July-08-13, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Yes, that will be cool, I've been to the Time Warner Center..loved it!

That's at Columbus Circle? I know many who were sad to see the Colosseum go, but that is nice.

I have heard a rumor from someone I trust that they are going forward with a viability of construction review for the Marchetti/Pellegrino design

http://tinyurl.com/kg55k59

**royce** · July-09-13, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

I'm not excited by the LA building. it just seems so...1990. VERY boring architecturally, with the gimmicky LED ribbon compensating for lack of imagination.

On the other hand, different for different's sake doesn't thrill me either.

The Marchetti & Pellegrino design has really grown on me. I think it is striking, it pays homage to Detroit's industrial history and it manages to stand out while not sticking out like a sore thumb

http://tinyurl.com/kg55k59

Honestly, rb336, I don't see what you and the jurors saw in this design. It was very abstract. The towers appear to be see through and hold very little space in terms of office or residential footage. The rendering showed nothing on the ground level that appeared to be stores or anything else for that matter. I'm curious, "How does it pay homage to Detroit's industrial history?"
I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but this was one of the least appealing designs in the contest for my tastes.

Now, regarding putting a mall in the mix, I agree with an earlier poster that two levels of retail should be enough. A City Target should be the anchor store. After that, maybe some spaces for local businesses. The rest should be for restaurants. Including the City Target, 20 stores/restaurants tops. A bunch of suburban-mall stores won't work, except for the Target. A City Target, if nothing else and some restaurants will work.

**MidTownMs** · July-09-13, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I heard it will be 200 floors, with a Four Seasons, St. Regis, a Waldorf, the relocated Apple HQ and Facebook HQ, and $50 million luxury condos curated by Giorgio Armani. Also heard that Somerset is closing and relocating to the new complex.

Would that be Somerset Mall or the Collection or both...

**48205to24** · July-09-13, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by marshamusic

Sole Sisters closed last month; though I totally agree with your point.

That location was sort of hidden, I found it taking a shortcut once. Luckily they still have the Royal Oak location, passed by there Saturday. Are there any stores left in the city that sells
Womens shoes?

**48205to24** · July-09-13, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by MidTownMs

Would that be Somerset Mall or the Collection or both...

How about a mix of high end from Somerset as well mid range _this Detroit. Alsocreativity and talent of mom and pops on Main Street, you get your $150 perfect fitting jeans from high end store then go to the next shop to have a one of a kind shirtt or jacket made to go with them, then you go down the road to get your old leather boots customized,

**stasu1213** · July-09-13, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

As long as there is variety and things are shops are fairly close to each other, no one wants to buy the outfit downtown then go to midtown for the purse in shoes [[shot out to sole sisters). Its an option but shouldnt be a requirement. You also dont want to pay $2 at parking rmeter downtown and then $2 parking in midtown.

What a downtown need to thrive is a good transportation systems that will get shoppers in, out, and around downtown/midtown. Look at other cities with a thriving retail district and you will see that they have a good transportation systems that shoppers could catch and don't have to worry about meters such as Detroit shoppers have to worry about when shopping and playing downtown/midtown. Give shoppers a choice whether to drive and pay the meters or catch a reliable transportation and you will see a more thriving downtown/midtown detroit

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 06:57 AM

I hear JC Penney, Best Buy and Kmart are going to open up on the Hudson Block!

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Look at other cities with a thriving retail district and you will see that they have a good transportation systems that shoppers could catch and don't have to worry about meters such as Detroit shoppers have to worry about when shopping and playing downtown/midtown. Give shoppers a choice whether to drive and pay the meters or catch a reliable transportation and you will see a more thriving downtown/midtown detroit

Like Troy/Auburn Hills/Novi??

**Bham1982** · July-09-13, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I hear JC Penney, Best Buy and Kmart are going to open up on the Hudson Block!

Aren't all three stores on death's door? Maybe throw in Sears and Radio Shack, and you have the "I Will Survive" retail center.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Aren't all three stores on death's door? Maybe throw in Sears and Radio Shack, and you have the "I Will Survive" retail center.

I forgot about those. Maybe throw in a Bennegin's or an Arwey Bakery?

**Honky Tonk** · July-09-13, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I forgot about those. Maybe throw in a Bennegin's or an Arwey Bakery?

Put in a Wal-Mart and kill everything for miles around. If you're gonna go, go BIG!

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-13, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Put in a Wal-Mart and kill everything for miles around. If you're gonna go, go BIG!

Walmart wants the Tiger Stadium Site, more parking and lots of space for seniors to park their $200k RV's overnight to save $40.

**rb336** · July-09-13, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Like Troy/Auburn Hills/Novi??

Malls are not urban retail districts

**rb336** · July-09-13, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Honestly, rb336, I don't see what you and the jurors saw in this design. It was very abstract. The towers appear to be see through and hold very little space in terms of office or residential footage. The rendering showed nothing on the ground level that appeared to be stores or anything else for that matter. I'm curious, "How does it pay homage to Detroit's industrial history?"
I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but this was one of the least appealing designs in the contest for my tastes.

Now, regarding putting a mall in the mix, I agree with an earlier poster that two levels of retail should be enough. A City Target should be the anchor store. After that, maybe some spaces for local businesses. The rest should be for restaurants. Including the City Target, 20 stores/restaurants tops. A bunch of suburban-mall stores won't work, except for the Target. A City Target, if nothing else and some restaurants will work.

for those who don't want to click through the various views, here is what they call the "programmatic distribution diagram"