Why was the Hudson's store demolished? Who made money?

[mwilbert]

I think you are right. It is hard for people who weren't there [[especially before they started closing parts of it off) to realize what a huge building it was. Think about the fact that the Book Tower still seems impossible to renovate because of the magnitude of the financing required and the required value per square foot. Then think about how much bigger Hudson's was, and how much less suited to reuse. I was very sad to see it close, but it is hard to see how it would have made sense to keep the building intact.

[Baselinepunk]

"The massive size of this building was its downfall. Today it might be seen as an opportunity. Then, it was seen as too big for anyone to take on. That's why mothballing historic properties is a good idea. What is doable changes. "

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please stop.

Now.

[DetroitPlanner]

"The massive size of this building was its downfall. Today it might be seen as an opportunity. Then, it was seen as too big for anyone to take on. That's why mothballing historic properties is a good idea. What is doable changes. "

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please stop.

Now.

Please explain why and how you came to this assessment, do not attack.

[Wesley Mouch]

Still would not be an opportunity today - or for at least another decade.

Today, it would have been vacant for 31 years, and if you have read about the associated costs, which Schostak estimated would have been 2-3 million per year for a building that size - it would have been a $32 million suck between 1997 and the present. That would be a huge and unending spend. Hudson's closed it because it made no money and sold it because keeping it was too expensive.

Even today, there is nothing that would suggest it would even remotely be close to a possibility. Even with Gilbert's acquisition spree, real estate prices have been too low to support a redevelopment that size [[even taking into account all the credits that are available).

I liked JLH as much as anyone else who had actually been in it, but had it not gone, there would be no Compuware and no Campus Martius park - without which there would be no Gilbert. Axing the building was a reasonable step at the time, and it turned out to be reasonable in terms of subsequent history.

HB

Bear, a reasonable argument. And you may well be right -- especially as regards the neighborhood redevelopment. A 2m sf building rotting next door isn't a selling feature. A ugly 'vacant' lot isn't a positive, but its not a huge negative.

I'm less with you on the holding costs. From closing till demo, the holding costs were nearly zero. And even with that, the building was in great shape. [[I did see interiors horn to hoof, and I have worked on highrise renovation.) There was little sign of facade/cornice trouble -- and that would be the biggest expense. So let's give you the $32m holding cost. There's no doubt that the value of the bones of that building exceed $32m, IMO. I also disagree with you on reusability of the interiors. Yes, there were somewhat deep interiors -- but nothing unusual. The ceilings [[except for mezzanines) were very high -- and the depth to windows not excessive. Have you noticed btw the trend towards department store retail exposing windows?

But regardless, it is history now. A shame to have thrown so much value away.

[David L]

I was a huge fan of the downtown Hudson's building when I lived in Detroit, thirty odd years ago now. I distinctly remember that when the decision to close the store was made, Dayton Hudson corp. took a $35,000,000. tax write off on the building. They maintained corporate offices there until 1989. Does anyone know when they actually sold the building and to whom and for how much? Was the demolition paid for by the tax payers?

[DetroitPlanner]

Does anyone know when they actually sold the building and to whom and for how much? Was the demolition paid for by the tax payers?

There were several people claiming that they 'owned' it yet no one ever paid the taxes on it. Since no taxes were paid for such a long time it was considered an abandoned property and the City paid to have it demolished. It would not surprise me if much of the funding for it came from the conservancy set-up to develop Campus Martius, but I am not finding much about the picky parts in google searches.

[marshamusic]

Thanks for sharing that. I've read about segregation in the history books, but to me it's such a bizarre thing that's it crazy to think that it wasn't very long ago that this happened.

I'm dealing with a racist neighbor right now. I currently live in Warren but I'm moving to Rochester Hills in a couple weeks. We're having prospective tenants going through our Warren house and my neighbor has been very verbal about not wanting a black neighbor.

My neighbor is in her mid 50's and I'm 30. It's just crazy, I really like her and I'm bummed out that she's being a racist tool. I'm of course being color-blind in my search for a tenant as required by my character and the laws of our land.

Yes 48307, it's hard to believe that these things are relatively recent; they didn't just happen in the "olden days". It is important that younger people understand what happened in this area.

I don't want to get too far off this thread on Hudson's, but in response to your post - yes, your neighbor might be racist, but she is also likely has a real fear of what will happen - to her home values, to her neighborhood, to her piece of mind - if blacks move in next door.

There is much history of real estate interests, landlords, etc. moving blacks into a neighborhood who are in no position, in the long run, of maintaining the neighborhood at the desired standards. So be aware of this phenomenon.

My aunt moved into Warren a few years ago, and the white next-door neighbor was distant, at best. Today, those neighbors ply her with home-make cookies, garden flowers, etc., when they discovered that, in this instance, there was nothing to fear and a lot to gain - they now watch out for each other, take care of each other's lawns, and dogs and so on.

I'm sure they're very glad she moved there, after all.

[Huggybear]

I'm less with you on the holding costs.

Wesley, that was the low-end of Schostak's estimate. It sounded a little high to me until I considered the probable costs of "mothballing" something that size [[not inconsiderable), keeping 10,000 windows sealed, putting a new roof on it probably twice, and putting enough security on it to keep scrappers out. Recall also that Hudson's was put to rest before the spike in metal prices that has dismantled a lot of Detroit [[although some of the building's officially sanctioned Canadian "developers" scavenged it under the guise of redeveloping it).

And am I mis-recalling the interior floor layout? I thought the outside was a ring of offices a la Macy's in Manhattan.

I was sad to see it go. From where I was watching the demo, on Washington and Grand River, people were cheering like it was the Bastille being torn down. And the aftermath looked like Vesuvius. Talk about history.

HB

[Wesley Mouch]

Wesley, that was the low-end of Schostak's estimate. It sounded a little high to me until I considered the probable costs of "mothballing" something that size [[not inconsiderable), keeping 10,000 windows sealed, putting a new roof on it probably twice, and putting enough security on it to keep scrappers out. Recall also that Hudson's was put to rest before the spike in metal prices that has dismantled a lot of Detroit [[although some of the building's officially sanctioned Canadian "developers" scavenged it under the guise of redeveloping it).

HB: I suppose it depends on what you want from your mothballing. A proper job would likely be a lot more than that. A couple million would only cover staff to manage the projects, let alone do them. But we also saw that the actual dollars spent on the building were near zero -- yet it was ready to be renovated the day it was imploded.

And am I mis-recalling the interior floor layout? I thought the outside was a ring of offices a la Macy's in Manhattan.

I walked nearly every inch -- and I don't recall offices on the exterior much if at all. The upper floors were all offices. If I remember, Dayton/Hudson had about 500 people working these for years after the retail closed. On most lower floors, the perimeter was closed off by partitions that likely moved with the winds of retail needs -- with floor stocking areas around the outside. But that's only a generalization and my recollection. Someone with real knowledge should chime in.

[48009]

There were several people claiming that they 'owned' it yet no one ever paid the taxes on it. Since no taxes were paid for such a long time it was considered an abandoned property and the City paid to have it demolished. It would not surprise me if much of the funding for it came from the conservancy set-up to develop Campus Martius, but I am not finding much about the picky parts in google searches.

How did several people claim to own something as prominent as the Hudson's building? What exactly did Hudson's do with it after they left? Wiki says, "Dayton Hudson sold the building in December 1989." To whom?

[Argonne18]

Just as an aside, dennis w archer, the mayor at the time, was "elected" to the
Compuware Board of Directors a week after his term as mayor was up.
Of course, I'm sure this is all just a coincidence.

[jeanlucgrosjean]

Hudson's was going to build a much smaller store as part of the Cadillac Center project then tear down the old store in order to use it for smaller stores. Cadillac Center ended up being a giant bust as did every other proposal to renovate the old building. It was going to be too hard to make the dollars work. http://www.nytimes.com/1982/07/15/us...n-detroit.html

Do you know anything else about Cadillac Mall or where to find out information about it? I find it fascinating. Thanks!

[Anne]

I remember distinctly that there were black women operating the elevators and they wore gloves. I also remember [[as a little white girl) that there was a water dispenser in the store somewhere that my mother wouldn't let me use because it was for coloreds only. I was only about 5 years old at the time and couldn't understand it so it stuck with me. This would have been in the mid 1950s.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Welcome to Detroityes Anne : )