History of Southfield becoming the commercial and business hub of Metro Detroit?

[Hermod]

But there was still some hassle, as I remember, about the route through Hazel Park. Hence the infamous 9 Mile/John R curve, which I believe was in the last section of the freeway to open sometime around 1970, give or take a year.

There was hassles about the whole route through there. In 1959, I was surveying for the city of Troy to run in water and sewer lines to subdivisions which had been built on wells and septic tanks while Troy was a township. The minute I would start setting up my transit, housewives would come boiling out demanding to know why "I" was trying to run I-75 through their subdivision.

[DTWflyer]

Very true, as most of western Troy along Adams Rd, and much of the corridor between Livernois and Rochester Rd were already developed by the late 50's. Not to mention Clawson, Royal Oak, and Birmingham already being built-out. They had to snake I-75 through Troy to avoid existing development and the origional Troy Corners & Big Beaver village areas.

[marshamusic]

In 1961, the Chrysler ended at the Ford with a temporary ramp. The Ford ended at Gratiot. The Lodge went out to Northwestern Highway. The Fisher and Jeffries were pipedreams. Holbrook was as far north as detailed planning went for the Chrysler. Gratiot was bumper to bumper morning and evening with two and three cycles necessary to get through the Harper and Connor lights.

I love these discussions about freeways. They tell so much about the development of the region. Thanks.

[Novine]

How does all of this discussion explain how Troy became a center of office/commercial space versus somewhere else? As far as I know, there's nothing on the east side that comes close to matching the amount or concentration of office space located in AH and Troy even though there's almost as many people in Macomb County as Oakland.

[Detroitnerd]

I think one factor is that Troy and Southfield didn't seem to have heavy rail lines running through them. That would tend to attract industry.

Also, Troy and Southfield were in between the major spoke roads, which were developed. They basically needed a lot of land to create these new resource-heavy car-dependent developments, land for right-of-way, land for parking lots, land for more parking lots. [[haha)

[Bham1982]

How does all of this discussion explain how Troy became a center of office/commercial space versus somewhere else? As far as I know, there's nothing on the east side that comes close to matching the amount or concentration of office space located in AH and Troy even though there's almost as many people in Macomb County as Oakland.

It's because office space is usually located close to where decision-makers live. You'll notice that the office space in Troy is mostly on the west side of the city [[the Bloomfield side), not the east side [[the Sterling Heights side). The East Side commercial space in Troy is mostly flex or industrial.

That's why there isn't much office space Downriver, or in Macomb.

[casscorridor]

Dearborn should be included in the discussion. It is unique because the Ford Fairlane property meant that a huge swath of land close to central Detroit could be developed. Most of the land to this day remains undeveloped, despite the many offices, shopping centers and college concentrated there. The freeway network is also very well connected and the airport is.less than a 15min drive away. Immigration is also huge and there is little blight or abandonment. Transit is well-connected and commuter rail is around the corner. These aspects make Dearborn poised to prosper long after Southfield, Troy and Auburn hills.

[Detroitnerd]

Yes, if Detroit was our Manhattan, Dearborn was like Detroit's Brooklyn, a fully self-contained city in itself with plenty of land kept in reserve even today.

[Bham1982]

I will disagree on Dearborn. Their commercial vacancy rate is quite high, they're totally dependent on Ford, and their marketability from an office standpoint is largely because of the Southfield freeway directly connectecting to the most affluent part of Oakland County, rather than things like immigration or transit.

Ford remains because it's an easy daily trek for the execs. I doubt they care they can get good Lebanese or hop an Amtrak.

[Hermod]

How does all of this discussion explain how Troy became a center of office/commercial space versus somewhere else? As far as I know, there's nothing on the east side that comes close to matching the amount or concentration of office space located in AH and Troy even though there's almost as many people in Macomb County as Oakland.

I-75 for Troy and the Lodge/Northwestern for Southfield. Troy was just a mix of bedroom communities and truck farms until I-75 snaked its way through. I-94 didn't do the same thing for Macomb because that corridor had already been built up along the Grand Trunk Railroad and the Rapid Railway Interurban. Southfield and Troy were "virgin territory" in a sense.

[Detroitnerd]

I will disagree on Dearborn. Their commercial vacancy rate is quite high, they're totally dependent on Ford, and their marketability from an office standpoint is largely because of the Southfield freeway directly connectecting to the most affluent part of Oakland County, rather than things like immigration or transit.

Ford remains because it's an easy daily trek for the execs. I doubt they care they can get good Lebanese or hop an Amtrak.

I think the point was that Dearborn didn't overdevelop, or put all its eggs in one basket. What Dearborn has, other than an anchor Fortune 500 company, is many different kinds of environments within one city, two downtowns [[three if you count Fairlane), and still plenty of land that could be developed. Unlike commuter suburbs like Troy, which aimed to be employment centers for other suburbs, Dearborn would be perfectly content to provide jobs for its 100,000 residents, thank you very much. Add to this that it is the major destination for immigrants from the Middle East, and you have a recipe for sustainability.

This whole executive-centered mindset, that we need executives to live in or near a place for it to succeed, is silly because, frankly, the very richest people move every 15 years in the area. Always have.

[DetroitPlanner]

I think one factor is that Troy and Southfield didn't seem to have heavy rail lines running through them. That would tend to attract industry.

Also, Troy and Southfield were in between the major spoke roads, which were developed. They basically needed a lot of land to create these new resource-heavy car-dependent developments, land for right-of-way, land for parking lots, land for more parking lots. [[haha)

Southfield yes. Troy? It has some ability to get trains along its Western edge. It may not have the best bones for transit but at least there are some.

[48009]

Dearborn should be included in the discussion. It is unique because the Ford Fairlane property meant that a huge swath of land close to central Detroit could be developed. Most of the land to this day remains undeveloped, despite the many offices, shopping centers and college concentrated there. The freeway network is also very well connected and the airport is.less than a 15min drive away. Immigration is also huge and there is little blight or abandonment. Transit is well-connected and commuter rail is around the corner. These aspects make Dearborn poised to prosper long after Southfield, Troy and Auburn hills.

Dearborn [[and Dearborn Heights) appear to be dying, to me. It appears the only people actively moving there are Arabic [[compared to in the past, when the area was made prosperous by Ford workforce settling close to work). And the Dearborn Arabics that make enough to afford West Bloom, Farmington, Birmingham, are moving up. Sure, some of the early 20s Ford hires will rent an apartment in Dearborn Heights, but maybe for a year until they realize Royal Oak is more happening. Downtown Dearborn and Dearborn Heights seems to have a lot of prime commercial vacancies. Ford and to a lesser degree UM-Dearborn keep that area afloat. The good news is that neither will ever move.

[Detroitnerd]

Dearborn [[and Dearborn Heights) appear to be dying, to me. It appears the only people actively moving there are Arabic. And the Dearborn Arabics that make enough to afford West Bloom, Farmington, Birmingham, are moving up. Sure, some of the early 20s Ford hires will rent an apartment in Dearborn Heights, but maybe for a year until they realize Royal Oak is more happening. Downtown Dearborn and Dearborn Heights seems to have a lot of prime commercial vacancies. Ford and to a lesser degree UM-Dearborn keep that area afloat. The good news is that neither will ever move.

This Oakland-centric view of the universe amuses me. Right, why would a community of immigrants -- one that has invested in shops, community centers, a museum, schools, religious institutions, etc. -- want to stay loyal to an area? The siren song of Oakland County will surely draw them in.

Arab-Americans are moving, but they're largely moving west, along Ford Road, into Dearborn Heights and west Dearborn, ready to pick up the slack of the native-borns who've decided to pack up their Conestoga wagons and go on to the farther western burbs.

You Oakland County people are just so ... cute.

[48009]

Are you trying to say Dearborn and Dearborn Heights are doing good? There is no chance that area is as nice as it was 10, 20 years ago. I don't have numbers, just observations it looks run down to me and it's only heavily populated M-F 9-5 until every heads home to the northern burbs.

[gazhekwe]

Some people see prosperity and community life only when the people are like them. Everyone else is relegated to less than desirable status.

[Detroitnerd]

Are you trying to say Dearborn and Dearborn Heights are doing good? There is no chance that area is as nice as it was 10, 20 years ago. I don't have numbers, just observations it looks run down to me and it's only heavily populated M-F 9-5 until every heads home to the northern burbs.

Yes, I'd say the more residential parts of Dearborn and Dearborn Heights are doing pretty well. I grew up there and still have a sister who lives there. Frankly, 30 years ago, the east side was pretty gray and fading. It was the Arab-Americans who enlivened it. Now, driving down Warren, you look at all the gleaming new shops and huge signs for Arabic businesses, and restaurants and sweet shops, and, yeah, it's doing better than it was when it was a sleepy, fading, working-class native-born neighborhood.

Do people work in Dearborn and live somewhere else? Sure, lots do. But that's what commuter suburbs are. Are the streets of Troy bumping after 6 p.m. around where the offices are? Probably not.

The original point was, is Dearborn on a good track as a city. I think, due to its compactness and solid employment base, and because of all the immigrants who've built up a real community there, yes, it's on a good track.

If anything, by becoming office meccas, Southfield and Troy aren't as diversified and could be courting long-term trouble.

[Detroitnerd]

Some people see prosperity and community life only when the people are like them. Everyone else is relegated to less than desirable status.

Yeah, gaz, I was kinda thinking that ... but I'm tired of people blowing up when you bring up cultural chauvinism...

[gazhekwe]

Ethnocentrism is common to all of us, really. What we are used to looks best to us. All these people hanging around that aren't what I am used to, obviously the place must be in decline. Not enough mini-mes to support it.

[gameguy56]

This Oakland-centric view of the universe amuses me. Right, why would a community of immigrants -- one that has invested in shops, community centers, a museum, schools, religious institutions, etc. -- want to stay loyal to an area? The siren song of Oakland County will surely draw them in.

Arab-Americans are moving, but they're largely moving west, along Ford Road, into Dearborn Heights and west Dearborn, ready to pick up the slack of the native-borns who've decided to pack up their Conestoga wagons and go on to the farther western burbs.

You Oakland County people are just so ... cute.

Dearborn is a pretty unique case, being the only substantial suburban job center outside of Oakland County. [[I know, Warren might argue, but whatevs)

[gameguy56]

Ford remains because it's an easy daily trek for the execs. I doubt they care they can get good Lebanese or hop an Amtrak.

They just take I94 all the way over from Grosse Pointe, right?

[48009]

I will disagree on Dearborn. Their commercial vacancy rate is quite high, they're totally dependent on Ford, and their marketability from an office standpoint is largely because of the Southfield freeway directly connectecting to the most affluent part of Oakland County, rather than things like immigration or transit.

Ford remains because it's an easy daily trek for the execs. I doubt they care they can get good Lebanese or hop an Amtrak.

Agree. How does Dearborn even lure execs to consider Dearborn? "Oh hey, yea just ignore that commercial hub [Southfield] you drove by on the way down here. Yes it's closer to your house and closer to where most of your workforce will call home but Dearborn is great because..." I honestly have no idea what makes Dearborn great. Unless Ford forced you to locate to Dearborn I can't any reason to be in Dearborn.

[48009]

Yes, I'd say the more residential parts of Dearborn and Dearborn Heights are doing pretty well. I grew up there and still have a sister who lives there. Frankly, 30 years ago, the east side was pretty gray and fading. It was the Arab-Americans who enlivened it. Now, driving down Warren, you look at all the gleaming new shops and huge signs for Arabic businesses, and restaurants and sweet shops, and, yeah, it's doing better than it was when it was a sleepy, fading, working-class native-born neighborhood.

Do people work in Dearborn and live somewhere else? Sure, lots do. But that's what commuter suburbs are. Are the streets of Troy bumping after 6 p.m. around where the offices are? Probably not.

The original point was, is Dearborn on a good track as a city. I think, due to its compactness and solid employment base, and because of all the immigrants who've built up a real community there, yes, it's on a good track.

If anything, by becoming office meccas, Southfield and Troy aren't as diversified and could be courting long-term trouble.

Most people don't want to live in an area full of immigrants if they have the means to live somewhere more plush, Arabics included. I know plenty of successful Arabics who turn their nose up to Dearborn.

I can't think of any scenario where Dearborn returns to its glory days. Its best years are behind it.

[Packman41]

Do you know the figures for each city? I would imagine Southfield being significantly more than Troy.

The metrics according to CBRE Commercial Real Estate are as follow:
In this order: Area, Office Square Footage, % Vacant and Asking Rent

Detroit: 15,887,387, 22.2%, $18.14
All Suburban: 58,841,135, 25.8%, $16.52
Southfield: 15,622,050, 31.6%. $16.09
Troy: 12,894,273, 30.8%, $16.67

[Novine]

"If anything, by becoming office meccas, Southfield and Troy aren't as diversified and could be courting long-term trouble."

Could be courting trouble? Both cities have already had major budget problems due to declines in the property values associated with the commercial and office properties in both cities.