Wayne State and their never ending tuition increases

[Wesley Mouch]

No, I don't take it seriously. If I did, then I would logically have to agree that providing FREE university education to hundreds of thousands of veterans under the G.I. Bill would have caused astronomical tuition increases after World War II.

You keep talking about these "laws of economics". Where's the equation that shows tuition increasing due to student loans?

Would you not agree that student loans make available more money for education for the same number of students? What happens when there's more money available chasing the same number of schools?

GI Bill did no doubt effect on price of college -- but it also increased the number of students dramatically. Increased money in the system PLUS more students than otherwise would have attended.

Everything you do in a market has a consequence. More money = higher prices.

[48009]

I'd like to get you started, since I'm on the faculty of the med school and there is absolutely no chance we are losing accreditation. So what the hell are you insinuating?

Also, while there is a serious problem on main campus with students who are not prepared to do college level work when they arrive, it's ridiculous to claim that the education undergrads receive is substandard. There are excellent faculty in all the WSU schools. There are also excellent students.

I don't need to expand on the med school rumors. You said they're unsubstantiated. O.K.

Bright kids don't want to be in classes with completely idiots--nor should they pay university tuition to share space with people barely fit for junior college classes. The undergrad problem ruins the main campus, and is pervasive in that it bleeds into the rep of the other programs at WSU, which also have their own issues.

[ghettopalmetto]

Would you not agree that student loans make available more money for education for the same number of students? What happens when there's more money available chasing the same number of schools?

GI Bill did no doubt effect on price of college -- but it also increased the number of students dramatically. Increased money in the system PLUS more students than otherwise would have attended.

Everything you do in a market has a consequence. More money = higher prices.

Then why don't you reserve equal grief for the progeny of the wealthy, whose parents pay cash no matter what the tuition, [[thus making a university education price inelastic to them)?

I argue that the availability of student loans--much like the G.I. Bill--has increased the number of students enrolled in universities, and thus likewise increased the amount of incoming tuition dollars.

[48009]

The six-year graduation rate among first-time freshmen was just 26.4 percent in 2011...its worst year this century, according to data from the WSU Office of Budget, Planning and Analysis and the U.S. Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics.

But it improved to 28.1 percent his second year, and administrators hope by August to reach a 32 percent completion rate for the 2012-13 academic year. That would return Wayne State to the range where it hovered for much of the previous decade -- but still at the back of the pack among Michigan's 15 public universities, according to the other schools' data submitted to NCES.

In short, it's the worst 4-year university in the state, where approx 3/4 of the students on campus are there for refund checks.

[firstandten]

In short, it's the worst 4-year university in the state, where approx 3/4 of the students on campus are there for refund checks.

In fairness to Wayne State this is a part of its urban mission that other Michigan schools aren't bound by. A lot of the problem is that todays urban student is so ill-prepared for college that all of the remedial courses that Wayne can offer will only make a dent, all the while the student loan debt goes up and up. If Wayne wanted to get its graduation rate up it could deny entry to these students tell them to go to WCCC then try and get in. That however would create a backlash that would look bad on WSU

[JBMcB]

Then why don't you reserve equal grief for the progeny of the wealthy, whose parents pay cash no matter what the tuition, [[thus making a university education price inelastic to them)?

Because they are a small minority. 5% of the student population having lots of money won't affect the overall price much. Giving 100% of the student population nearly unlimited, federally underwritten borrowing capacity does.

I argue that the availability of student loans--much like the G.I. Bill--has increased the number of students enrolled in universities, and thus likewise increased the amount of incoming tuition dollars.

Increasing the number of students who attend costs the university more money [[more professors, more rooms, more support staff, more services, etc...) Increasing tuition does not.

I'm all for letting poor people go to college. Targeted scholarships and grants work pretty well. Letting everyone borrow money cheaply does not work well [[but universities *LOVE* it)

[Bham1982]

In short, it's the worst 4-year university in the state, where approx 3/4 of the students on campus are there for refund checks.

This is pretty silly. It's the best school in Metro Detroit, and compares well to any school in the state except for U-M and MSU.

[48009]

If Wayne wanted to get its graduation rate up it could deny entry to these students tell them to go to WCCC then try and get in. That however would create a backlash that would look bad on WSU

Ha! They don't want people going to community college, they want all the $$$.

[Wesley Mouch]

Because they are a small minority. 5% of the student population having lots of money won't affect the overall price much. Giving 100% of the student population nearly unlimited, federally underwritten borrowing capacity does.

Increasing the number of students who attend costs the university more money [[more professors, more rooms, more support staff, more services, etc...) Increasing tuition does not.

I'm all for letting poor people go to college. Targeted scholarships and grants work pretty well. Letting everyone borrow money cheaply does not work well [[but universities *LOVE* it)

I dream of being so concise.

I too want less wealthy people to go to college. Its worth simply paying for this like we now pay for health care -- except for the part where we've allowed the evil insurance companies to take their tithe. Direct payment per student attending an accredited university -- I think you'd call that a voucher.

[drjeff]

In fairness to Wayne State this is a part of its urban mission that other Michigan schools aren't bound by. A lot of the problem is that todays urban student is so ill-prepared for college that all of the remedial courses that Wayne can offer will only make a dent, all the while the student loan debt goes up and up. If Wayne wanted to get its graduation rate up it could deny entry to these students tell them to go to WCCC then try and get in. That however would create a backlash that would look bad on WSU

WSU did increase their admission requirements in the past year. That led to a decreased enrollment, which led to decreased revenue, which led to the increase in tuition that is about to happen for 2013-14. The republicans who run the state do not like WSU, probably because of its location. They're busy throwing money at Grand Valley, which really is a third rate school, because it's in right wing stronghold western Michigan.

[Patrick]

WSU did increase their admission requirements in the past year. That led to a decreased enrollment, which led to decreased revenue, which led to the increase in tuition that is about to happen for 2013-14. The republicans who run the state do not like WSU, probably because of its location. They're busy throwing money at Grand Valley, which really is a third rate school, because it's in right wing stronghold western Michigan.

THIS

I have heard this numerous times from people on the west side of Michigan. There is a sort of jealousy from the west side of the state [[Republicans mostly) who have some sort of deep hatred for WSU. It even affects grads looking for work in K-zoo and GR. Anyone wonder why this is?

[Det_ard]

What affects WSU grads looking for work is the generally poor reputation of WSU grads. WSU's willingness to enroll students who can't or won't graduate hurts the students who end up with the debt but not the degree.

If WSU wants a better reputation they need to close the door on the mediocre students that currently represent the university. If they wish to stick with their "urban mission" they need to realize that their reputation will not improve.

[Bham1982]

What affects WSU grads looking for work is the generally poor reputation of WSU grads. WSU's willingness to enroll students who can't or won't graduate hurts the students who end up with the debt but not the degree.

I have never heard of this "poor reputation" locally. From the grads I've met, and the places I've worked at, Wayne State has a good reputation.

I mean, granted, it isn't Harvard or something, but nothing in Michigan is close to ultra-elite status. Even Michigan doesn't have super-tough standards for in-state applicants.

Wayne, for what it is [[an urban commuter university, serving the region, not global elites) is pretty good, IMO. No, it isn't going to be enrolling a ton of future Rhodes Scholars, UN Ambassadors, or Nobel Prize winners.

[ghettopalmetto]

Because they are a small minority. 5% of the student population having lots of money won't affect the overall price much. Giving 100% of the student population nearly unlimited, federally underwritten borrowing capacity does.

Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. Go to a major university campus [[Wayne State admittedly has a bit of a different demographic profile). A larger-than-normal percentage of the students at a large university are from well-off families. That percentage balloons at a school like U of M. Five percent, my ass.

Federally subsidized [[and unsubsidized) Stafford loans have borrowing limits per annum, as do Perkins loans for higher-need students.

Mind you, the vast bulk of those loans get repaid with interest.

I'm all for letting poor people go to college. Targeted scholarships and grants work pretty well. Letting everyone borrow money cheaply does not work well [[but universities *LOVE* it)

Scholarships would be great. Who's going to give those out--the state??? They've already cut funding for universities for decades.

[Patrick]

I'll never forget the heated debate various classmates had in a management course I had at WSU while I was there for grad school. One side argued that WSU needed to focus on research reputation and raising standards. The other side argued that WSU's primary mission was to be an inner-city institution that catered towards recent DPS grads. I guess WSU can only be one or the other...right?

[firstandten]

I'll never forget the heated debate various classmates had in a management course I had at WSU while I was there for grad school. One side argued that WSU needed to focus on research reputation and raising standards. The other side argued that WSU's primary mission was to be an inner-city institution that catered towards recent DPS grads. I guess WSU can only be one or the other...right?

I would focus on the research and raising standards. If the typical DPS grad was almost college ready and just needed a few remedial courses I would feel differently. These kids are hardly community college ready much less four year college ready. Let WCCC do the heavy lifting. WSU can still have the urban mission but it would need to be revised and updated

[TexasT]

I would focus on the research and raising standards. If the typical DPS grad was almost college ready and just needed a few remedial courses I would feel differently. These kids are hardly community college ready much less four year college ready. Let WCCC do the heavy lifting. WSU can still have the urban mission but it would need to be revised and updated

The entire set up pisses me off. It's straight up taking advantage of uneducated first-generation college students. 70%+ leave with no degree but thousands in debt - and this is a good thing because they have been given "access" to college? So we can all pat ourselves on the back and call it a job well done right, when these kids are worse off than if they had never gone to college in the first place?

As someone raised in poverty and a first-generation college graduate, I agree that the student loan process is screwed up and needs to be fixed. I'm all for some student loans to get an education, but you shouldn't be given access to six figures of loans straight out of high school [[especially when you don't have the education to pass basic college courses).

Really ticks me off. I know so many people in that population of students who leave with no degree and tens of thousands of dollars of non-dischargeable debt [[whose rate is about to double) that I feel were straight scammed. It just put them further into poverty.

[48009]

I mean, granted, it isn't Harvard or something, but nothing in Michigan is close to ultra-elite status. Even Michigan doesn't have super-tough standards for in-state applicants.

Wow.
Define "super-tough," please. Because unless you're talking about a URM applicant [[even better if from a title 1 school), a Michigan high school student needs a 90 percentile ACT score [[i.e. 27-30 range) and a 3.7 unweighed GPA to get into Michigan at Ann Arbor. Maybe a handful of grads from average to upper middle-class high schools get accepted into Michigan. It's arguably the best public university in America and one of the finest schools in the world.

[48009]

It's straight up taking advantage of uneducated first-generation college students. 70%+ leave with no degree but thousands in debt...

Bingo. The same can be said for most colleges in Michigan. Wayne just happens to be the worst offender, but its proximity and access to the largest collection of poverty line individuals certainly helps. If Flint had a population of 700k, UM-Flint would be the same story. Or if Pontiac had a population of 700k, Oakland would do the same.

[Bham1982]

Wow.
Define "super-tough," please. Because unless you're talking about a URM applicant [[even better if from a title 1 school), a Michigan high school student needs a 90 percentile ACT score [[i.e. 27-30 range) and a 3.7 unweighed GPA to get into Michigan at Ann Arbor. Maybe a handful of grads from average to upper middle-class high schools get accepted into Michigan. It's arguably the best public university in America and one of the finest schools in the world.

I was accepted into Michigan with lower standards than you state around 15 years ago, and I'm not a "special case" [[not affirmative action or athlete or legacy). My sister was accepted just 5 years ago on the lower end of your ACT range and below your GPA range. We both went to public MI high schools.

Michigan accepts around 50% of in-state applicants. In contrast, Ivy League schools tend to accept 5%-10% of applicants [[and I would bet their applicant pool is more elite).
To me, there is a gigantic difference between 5% acceptance rate at Harvard or Columbia and 50% acceptance rate at Michigan.

So to say that Wayne State "sucks" and Michigan is "elite", is a bit of a stretch. There's a huge gap between Wayne State and Michigan, but yet another huge gap between Michigan and the really top universities.

In my world, WSU is a respectable regional university, Michigan is a well regarded global university, and places like the Ivy League/Stanford/MIT are the truly elite. The three types of universities have different roles and don't really directly compete with one another.

[noggin]

University of Michigan out-of-state and international students comprised 42.6 percent of 2012 fall's freshman class. Non-resident freshmen pay $39,122, or $26,118 more than resident freshmen. Additionally, out-of-state students received less per-student university-sponsored financial aid than residents. This may help U of M's finances but it is more questionable it helps the state of Michigan when the graduating students return home.

[48009]

The republicans who run the state do not like WSU, probably because of its location. They're busy throwing money at Grand Valley, which really is a third rate school, because it's in right wing stronghold western Michigan.

What a couple of sad, Coleman Young-esque excuses. Grand Valley 6-year grad rate: 63%, Wayne 6-year grad rate: 27%

That's the [[white) right wingers on the west side of the state fault? That is the saddest excuse I've ever heard. What a pathetic institution if even the staff [[which Dr Jeff claims to be) is race bating and scapegoating. Just, wow.

[48009]

I was accepted into Michigan with lower standards than you state around 15 years ago, and I'm not a "special case" [[not affirmative action or athlete or legacy). My sister was accepted just 5 years ago on the lower end of your ACT range and below your GPA range. We both went to public MI high schools.

Michigan accepts around 50% of in-state applicants. In contrast, Ivy League schools tend to accept 5%-10% of applicants [[and I would bet their applicant pool is more elite).
To me, there is a gigantic difference between 5% acceptance rate at Harvard or Columbia and 50% acceptance rate at Michigan.

So to say that Wayne State "sucks" and Michigan is "elite", is a bit of a stretch. There's a huge gap between Wayne State and Michigan, but yet another huge gap between Michigan and the really top universities.

In my world, WSU is a respectable regional university, Michigan is a well regarded global university, and places like the Ivy League/Stanford/MIT are the truly elite. The three types of universities have different roles and don't really directly compete with one another.

I only hear, "Michigan is a good school, but it's no Ivy" from people that have a chip on their shoulder because they could never in a million years get in --or-- they regret not heading to Ann Arbor when they had a chance. Just being honest. Michigan-AA is world-class and one of the state's strongest assets. Wayne State is a community college that's lucky enough to have a medical school [[for the time being).

Fyi, I'm a DePaul grad, so please don't characterize me as some fanatic Michigan alum.

[Bham1982]

I only hear, "Michigan is a good school, but it's no Ivy" from people that have a chip on their shoulder because they could never in a million years get in --or-- they regret not heading to Ann Arbor when they had a chance. Just being honest. Michigan-AA is world-class. Wayne State is a community college that's lucky enough to have a medical school [[for the time being).

If you think I have a "chip on my shoulder" and didn't get in to U-M, that's your prerogative. I was accepted to LSA Honors, and to the Law School, BTW. There were probably 70 students from my high school [[about a third of the class) accepted into Michigan, so it wasn't considered some incredible accomplishment.

Michigan is very good, and arguably world class, but it's nonsense to try and compare Michigan's admissions standards with those of the highest ranked universities. They aren't in the same universe in terms of selectivity.

My larger point is that you're not distinguishing between differing roles. Michigan and Wayne are totally different institutions, and to criticize Wayne because it can't compare to Michigan is to miss the point. Wayne is an urban commuter campus, and needs to be the best it can while still serving this role. It will never be Michigan or MSU.

[bailey]

I only hear, "Michigan is a good school, but it's no Ivy" from people that have a chip on their shoulder because they could never in a million years get in --or-- they regret not heading to Ann Arbor when they had a chance. Just being honest. Michigan-AA is world-class and one of the state's strongest assets. Wayne State is a community college that's lucky enough to have a medical school [[for the time being).

Fyi, I'm a DePaul grad, so please don't characterize me as some fanatic Michigan alum.

Not saying UM AA isn't a great school, but...and this is, of course, only anecdotal... when my UM friends claim to be "ivy" or on the same level as Ivy...or the Harvard of the West ... my Ivy friends snigger about UM being the entire Ivy league's safety school...[[and apparently claiming to be "the Harvard" of anything is a joke in and of itself...to those that went elsewhere.)