Detroit fireworks marred by at least two unexplained stampedes

[corktownyuppie]

Detroit — A group of teens who tossed firecrackers downtown during the fireworks show Monday night set off a series of events that had police and citizens worried about gunshots, causing hundreds of people to flee, with some being injured in the stampede, a Detroit Police official told The News.It was part of a chaotic, confusing night that another police source said was marred by several brawls, one of which ended when a man who was fighting about a mile east of downtown pulled out a gun and accidentally shot himself in the leg.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2XKsQcqo2


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Bottom line...this isn't gonna be solved with more cops. Also notable, it's not gonna be solved with fewer cops.

The only solution I know is to divide the downtown areas into segments with impenetrable perimeter security and then intense security screening in the entryways.

Streets will need to be blocked off a la the Grand Prix back when it was downtown, and there should be highly controlled entryways/exitways into and out of the green zones.

A few idiots ruined it for everyone else.

[Honky Tonk]

This is the problem right here. People in the area always wanting handouts. "You have money, give me some!" You nor I deserve ANYTHING from anybody. They should charge admission to the prime spots [[i.e. crowded), not a source of revenue, but as a "hoodrat/idiot" filter.

Regardless of the crowd control situation, no civilized person should shoot a gun into a crowd. I know for a fact there were 2 shootings as a good friend was there and is in a position to know such things. I trust this person when they tell me what happened.

I'm not condoning or disputing the fact that you shouldn't shoot a gun into a crowd, but DG was bringing up some reasons why things might have escalated out of control. I haven't been, [[nor care to go) to the Detroit Fireworks in years, but I don't ever remember, other then Hart Plaza front and center, it being a problem finding a "good" viewing spot. I think she has some valid points. Limiting access might make for a better police controlled situation, but stacking people one on top of the other, for hours, in the heat, has the makings for a bad situation. As far as your "handouts" comment, the Detroit Fireworks have always, since conception, been free. It's a tradition. I'm not sure by sectioning prime areas off for the elite will make the situation any better.

[guito13]

I'm not condoning or disputing the fact that you shouldn't shoot a gun into a crowd, but DG was bringing up some reasons why things might have escalated out of control. I haven't been, [[nor care to go) to the Detroit Fireworks in years, but I don't ever remember, other then Hart Plaza front and center, it being a problem finding a "good" viewing spot. I think she has some valid points. Limiting access might make for a better police controlled situation, but stacking people one on top of the other, for hours, in the heat, has the makings for a bad situation. As far as your "handouts" comment, the Detroit Fireworks have always, since conception, been free. It's a tradition. I'm not sure by sectioning prime areas off for the elite will make the situation any better.

I used to take my kids to the fireworks as they love it. I am lucky enough to have an office in the ren-cen that provides an amazing view. That being said, we sill have to arrive early and kill some time. A couple years back we walked over to greektown, 5 kids in tow, and enjoy some food from there. When we walked back you had to show passes to get into the rencen, there was a HUGE crowd, mostly youths [[and yes, they were indeed 90% black kids if you want to know), trying to get in, crushing us together and scaring the kids. That was when I decided we were done there.

The admission thing is a FILTER to keep out idiots. They had to do it for the country concert and apparently it works. A minimal charge does wonders to keep out the idiots.

[Honky Tonk]

I used to take my kids to the fireworks as they love it. I am lucky enough to have an office in the ren-cen that provides an amazing view. That being said, we sill have to arrive early and kill some time. A couple years back we walked over to greektown, 5 kids in tow, and enjoy some food from there. When we walked back you had to show passes to get into the rencen, there was a HUGE crowd, mostly youths [[and yes, they were indeed 90% black kids if you want to know), trying to get in, crushing us together and scaring the kids. That was when I decided we were done there.

The admission thing is a FILTER to keep out idiots. They had to do it for the country concert and apparently it works. A minimal charge does wonders to keep out the idiots.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the $10-A-Car Belle Isle charge worked out? These "idiots" probably have more pocket change then you and I both. I'm not sure exactly how one would section off a prime area. You still have to get to the area and back. If you anger people enough, they will find a way in.

[guito13]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the $10-A-Car Belle Isle charge worked out? These "idiots" probably have more pocket change then you and I both. I'm not sure exactly how one would section off a prime area. You still have to get to the area and back. If you anger people enough, they will find a way in.

If the latter part of your post is indeed true what does this say about these people?

[motz]

[/FONT][/COLOR]


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2XKsQcqo2


=============

Bottom line...this isn't gonna be solved with more cops. Also notable, it's not gonna be solved with fewer cops.

The only solution I know is to divide the downtown areas into segments with impenetrable perimeter security and then intense security screening in the entryways.

Streets will need to be blocked off a la the Grand Prix back when it was downtown, and there should be highly controlled entryways/exitways into and out of the green zones.

A few idiots ruined it for everyone else.

I know everyone will overlook this since it isn't the awesome, attention grabbing description of blood running the streets and multiple shooting victims from "close, personal sources", but this actually sounds about right. If you've ever been in a crowd when someone throws firecrackers, people bolt, and quickly. Take that + Crowd density + people being on edge and you get your ass stampeded.

[Bham1982]

I know everyone will overlook this since it isn't the awesome, attention grabbing description of blood running the streets and multiple shooting victims from "close, personal sources", but this actually sounds about right.

And you'll also notice that the initial claims were correct. DPD now confirms at least one discharged firearm following the firecrackers being tossed.

[corktownyuppie]

And you'll also notice that the initial claims were correct. DPD now confirms at least one discharged firearm following the firecrackers being tossed.

This is accurate, but the devil is in the details. The discharge was one mile east of downtown on Chene. Some would argue that's a part of downtown. For someone who lives down here, I would call that way outside my version of downtown. It's certainly a hike from Hart Plaza or Jefferson/Woodward.

But yes, a gun was discharged.

[EastsideAl]

This is exactly what I told cityhall yesterday.

When I attempted to walk up to Hart Plaza after work on Mon., Jefferson was closed at 7:45pm to pedestrian crossing. As people began quickly approaching the intersection the more angry they became. Not only because most of the late comers are trying to hurry down from work and can't get there any earlier, but because there is no prior announcement regarding the time of the street closure. So you have families carring stuff and people who took 4 buses on a 90 degree day just trying to find a patch of ground past the skyline [[and you cant see squat if you arent past the skyline). Not to mention the families that become separated when a few leave to get a drink or use a non-porta-john. By the time the fireworks started, Hart Plaza was half empty, and the intersection of WW and J was packed like a sardine can full of bored kids and aggravated adults and teens. Throw rude, aggressive, and high strung police into the mix and you now have the makings of a catastrophic event. The police are setting this event up for failure.

As far as the demographics go, the crowd at the intersection was 65/35 black folks. But my spidey streetsense told me it was easily 90/10 hood folks [[of all colors), some of which dont leave a six block radius unless patronizing a Walmarts. This is the biggest outdoor event of the year that doesnt have an entry fee, one of the only times everyone in town regardless of income has an opportunity to get front row seats to view the most spectacular show in town. Don't assume just because lots of black folks are around when the shit hits the fan that it's a black folks problem. It's more like a hood rats problem.

I know that some of you [[predictably) feel like we need MORE security, but the police presence in the CBD was already extremely heavy, zillions of them walking and riding around Campus Martius, the Woodward corridor and Jefferson. Even the Border Patrol is in on the act now. If more police was the answer we'd already have the safest event of the summer. But, it isn't is it?

IMHO, I dont think closing down the riverfront to the majority of Detroit resident is the answer, I think we should be making it more accomodating. Jefferson should be opened wide up to all foot traffic until 9pm, and the Riverfront and Belle Isle Conservancies need to work with Law enforcement to create a more accessable, safe and maybe even profitable event. People should be allowed to put their blankets down on eastbound Jefferson up to the median, the EM vehicles can easily use westbound Jefferson as a two-way. More vendor permits should be allowed, increasing the access to affordable food and drinks, and to things families might need in a pinch. Maybe a shuttle line to take the elderly and disabled back and forth from the riverfront [[Dan??), and some street performers to entertain the young people [[Dan??)[[GM??) [[Illitch??) Come on guys...

People on this site are always saying that the problem with Detroiters is that we set our expectations low, therefore resulting in low outcomes. Why should the Fireworks be an exception to this logic?

This is a great post.

We don't need more police at this event. In fact, there could hardly be more police there. What is needed is better policing, with better information, better interaction with the public, and more sensible policies and command control. Making this a better organized, friendlier, and more easily navigated event for spectators - and one where they can actually see what they came to see - would almost certainly serve to bring down the tension and anger level quite a bit. And that may just help in making people more cooperative with police and other authorities and help to isolate the inevitable knuckleheads.

Having said that, as presently constituted, and under present conditions, this event has the potential for the real danger of a panicked stampede - as we saw the other night. Sad experience in other countries shows just how deadly this can potentially be, which is why I say that maybe we need to think about putting the fireworks on hiatus for a couple of years until we can improve the event for everyone.

[Zug]

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2XKsQcqo2


=============

Bottom line...this isn't gonna be solved with more cops. Also notable, it's not gonna be solved with fewer cops.

The only solution I know is to divide the downtown areas into segments with impenetrable perimeter security and then intense security screening in the entryways.

Streets will need to be blocked off a la the Grand Prix back when it was downtown, and there should be highly controlled entryways/exitways into and out of the green zones.

A few idiots ruined it for everyone else.

Just going to be another to comment on this so it doesn't get buried. I know the comments for these stories have been full of "it's a cover-up" statements. I guess it could be...but my only problem is that I have yet to hear anyone say they actually saw a gun fired. Even those "right by it" never say they saw someone shoot. [[I would think most people would be looking at the sky during a fireworks show.) Even the YouTube videos are not near the actual "shots." No offense to anyone that's posted otherwise, but I honestly do think that a combination of it being believable that someone would shoot at the fireworks combined with a "cool" after-the-fact story to tell people has made them reluctant to acknowledge that something other than their story may be true.

Also, I know I'm about to be real unfair...but the closest eyewitnesses are also the first to run and start a stampede of humanity. I'm sure it's easier to feel better that you may have trampled children and the elderly over a gunshot than saying you trampled people following a crowd reacting to firecrackers a couple teens tossed.

However, I still stand by my original statement that no matter what happened, it's still bad. It's almost as big of an asshole move to toss firecrackers in a crowd as it is to fire a gun in the air.

[Cliffy]

I used to take my kids to the fireworks as they love it. I am lucky enough to have an office in the ren-cen that provides an amazing view. That being said, we sill have to arrive early and kill some time. A couple years back we walked over to greektown, 5 kids in tow, and enjoy some food from there. When we walked back you had to show passes to get into the rencen, there was a HUGE crowd, mostly youths [[and yes, they were indeed 90% black kids if you want to know), trying to get in, crushing us together and scaring the kids. That was when I decided we were done there.

The admission thing is a FILTER to keep out idiots. They had to do it for the country concert and apparently it works. A minimal charge does wonders to keep out the idiots.

Agreed. Either an admission fee or just cancel it altogether. I still remember back in 2004 when people got shot and they never found it. I remember back in the late 80's or early 90's that big fight caught on video. The fireworks crowd at hart plaza has become nothing more than trash. I feel sorry for the cops that have to deal with those people. This is why I will never take me or my family down to the fireworks.

[ccal]

I was curious about this myself. If the result was fewer incidents then I don't see why we cant do the same type of charge for Hart Plaza; earmark the proceeds for charity to minimize the bleats of protest.

Extend the secured area from just Hart Plaza to the surrounding blocks; under 18 requires parent or guardian. No ID means you're watching on TV.

Agreed........

[royce]

One thing about certain individuals these days, particularly young people, is that these individuals disrupt events because they want to draw attention to themselves. Those throwing the fire crackers wanted to draw attention to themselves instead of watching the fireworks. They did it so that they can brag about the "prank" they pulled to their friends and followers on Facebook. I'm sure one of them filmed their actions. Also, those reacting to the fire crackers, the ones that ran like bats out of hell knocking over people while thinking they heard gun shots, were probably also trying to draw attention to themselves as well or in another way just trying to follow the crowd, which also has a way of drawing attention to themselves. With many young people it's not about going to an event to see the event. It's about being scene at the event and who they can see. Boys checking out girls and vice versa. Because they're not really there to watch the event, they create situations to get noticed, whether that be throwing fire crackers into an unsuspecting crowd, claiming someone has a gun [[like here or like the Wayne State Bro. Rice/Cass football game), or talking loud or playing their music loud. They're doing all of this for attention without realizing that when they are chasing each other or trying to get away from some "perceived" danger, that they can hurt other people. To them the people who they are not trying to get the attention from, really aren't there. They only see what's happening in their little world. I know that if I perceived that I heard gun shots in a crowd that I would try to move away quickly, but not at the expense of just running people over, but then I'm not trying to get people's attention either.

[poobert]

Agreed. Either an admission fee or just cancel it altogether. I still remember back in 2004 when people got shot and they never found it. I remember back in the late 80's or early 90's that big fight caught on video. The fireworks crowd at hart plaza has become nothing more than trash. I feel sorry for the cops that have to deal with those people. This is why I will never take me or my family down to the fireworks.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2013306270104
Another Detroit Festival ruined...

I have deep distrust of most of my fellow Detroiters, to be totally generous. Most people in this city are just completely uncivilized. Drunks and drug addicts who have kids for welfare and then neglect them. I travel a lot in my line of work. Most of this country is a great, peaceful and beautiful place. It is always amazing to come back here after a brief hiatus and find murderous carnage, violent stampedes and beatings, and perverted councilmen. This was just in one week. I don't have any hope for this city or region. It's just too far gone. Civil society doesn't exist here.

[Honky Tonk]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2013306270104
Another Detroit Festival ruined...

I have deep distrust of most of my fellow Detroiters, to be totally generous. Most people in this city are just completely uncivilized. Drunks and drug addicts who have kids for welfare and then neglect them. I travel a lot in my line of work. Most of this country is a great, peaceful and beautiful place. It is always amazing to come back here after a brief hiatus and find murderous carnage, violent stampedes and beatings, and perverted councilmen. This was just in one week. I don't have any hope for this city or region. It's just too far gone. Civil society doesn't exist here.

I totally agree. Maybe Sharpton & Jackson will show up to protest the racial slurs and beatings? Probably the worst thing they could've done was post this story. Now every punk in the City will want their name in the paper.

[motz]

I have deep distrust of most of my fellow Detroiters, to be totally generous. Most people in this city are just completely uncivilized. Drunks and drug addicts who have kids for welfare and then neglect them. I travel a lot in my line of work. Most of this country is a great, peaceful and beautiful place. It is always amazing to come back here after a brief hiatus and find murderous carnage, violent stampedes and beatings, and perverted councilmen. This was just in one week. I don't have any hope for this city or region. It's just too far gone. Civil society doesn't exist here.

And I had hope that people would acknowledge that it has been widely known that the "having children for welfare" thing was some Newt Gingrich bullstuff from the 90s that was spewed to help demonize the poor and further seperate them from the wealthier parts of society.

99.5% of the people who attended the fireworks were not murderous, violent drunks and drug addicts who have kids for welfare. They were people who wanted to watch the fireworks and enjoy them.

[ccal]

Must have been those opening day Tigers fans.

[Zug]

I'm really not trying to do the whole "Everyplace is as fucked up as Detroit" thing that so often happens. However, sometimes when we're in our own bubble of reality, it feels like things are "only in Detroit." I guess I absolutely hate when people take the actions of a few and use it to act like EVERYBODY in the city are heartless thugs ready to kill someone with no mercy. These people certainly exist, but come on...the whole "We have no hope" shit is so over-dramatic. Of course we need better parents and citizens in general, in many cases...but it's not like this is a Detroit-only thing. Every year, there are fights, people getting beat up, people causing disruptions, and shootings at events outside of Detroit. There will be humans with bad intentions and a lack of morals in many places. I did a news search and it took me like 30 seconds to find 3 recent non-Detroit instances of violence or scares at festivals:

14 & 13 year old shot near an Ohio church festival, June 8: http://www.fox19.com/story/22540941/...hurch-festival

10 year old shot at a Juneteenth Festival in Columbus, June 16: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...hild-shot.html

Man fires blanks at the Cannes Film Festival, May 2013: http://www.eonline.com/news/433358/2...-firing-blanks

You can argue this stuff happens more in Detroit, but seriously...get a lot of people together and the ignorant or crazy get tempted to act stupid.

[poobert]

And I had hope that people would acknowledge that it has been widely known that the "having children for welfare" thing was some Newt Gingrich bullstuff from the 90s that was spewed to help demonize the poor and further seperate them from the wealthier parts of society.

99.5% of the people who attended the fireworks were not murderous, violent drunks and drug addicts who have kids for welfare. They were people who wanted to watch the fireworks and enjoy them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Republican. I'm still a liberal, but I'm not going to make excuses anymore for the way hundreds of thousands of citizens of this city conduct their lives. There is a total breakdown of society here. Whatever their motivation for having kids, they're having too many, too young, and unfit parents in way too many cases. The behavior of people in this city is unreal, it truly is Mad Max times. It is no place for an honest person who goes to work each day and seeks to spend each evening in quiet.

About the only folks in this city who aren't completely insane are the old folks. Whatever happened to the generations after that I haven't a clue.

[48205to24]

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Republican. I'm still a liberal, but I'm not going to make excuses anymore for the way hundreds of thousands of citizens of this city conduct their lives. There is a total breakdown of society here. Whatever their motivation for having kids, they're having too many, too young, and unfit parents in way too many cases. The behavior of people in this city is unreal, it truly is Mad Max times. It is no place for an honest person who goes to work each day and seeks to spend each evening in quiet.

About the only folks in this city who aren't completely insane are the old folks. Whatever happened to the generations after that I haven't a clue.

Speaking for hundreds of thousands of non-old and non-insane residents in the city of Detroit. Considering the generalization in the quote you just made, you dont have a clue about a lot of things.

[Spartan]

I'm really not trying to do the whole "Everyplace is as fucked up as Detroit" thing that so often happens.

You can argue this stuff happens more in Detroit, but seriously...get a lot of people together and the ignorant or crazy get tempted to act stupid.

It was a scary situation and doesn't help our reputation, but honestly, if a few minor injuries from a minor stampede reaction to some idiot[[s) setting off fireworks in a large crowd is all that results from a gathering of a million people, it's hard to complain too much.

[Spartan]

^Thats a defeatist attitude. By saying "it could be worse" you are by extension saying that any existing issues [[whether you perceive them to be minor or otherwise) are not deserved of attention.

If you only have a single lock on your door and someone kicks it in and steals your TV, you don't say "well, they only stole the TV; we don't need additional locks since they could have stolen the TV and the jewelry and sodomized the dog".

Not really, it's just a matter of odds. When you gather a million people in a fairly small area, year after year, shit happens. Of course it would be better if it didn't but it's not a realistic attitude. I'm not saying we should ignore it and not try to address the issue, it's just not as big of a concern as everyone seems to be making it out to be. For example, those suggesting that we just cancel the event entirely, are severely overreacting.

[corktownyuppie]

It was a scary situation and doesn't help our reputation, but honestly, if a few minor injuries from a minor stampede reaction to some idiot[[s) setting off fireworks in a large crowd is all that results from a gathering of a million people, it's hard to complain too much.

My response to this is similar to one I have in conversations about corruption in government, whether it's in Detroit, Wayne County, State of Illinois, etc.

The damage in corruption is not limited to the actual dollars stolen. No, the damage is in the destruction of public trust, creating a culture in your organization that openly embraces lying and fraud, and drives away other potential partnerships and organizations that wish to distance themselves from you.

In that light, the damage from this incident cannot be quantified by looking at the number of people who were injured and multiply it by the severity of their scrapes and bruises. The problem is that we've damaged the public trust in our ability to keep them safe.

We are now at a point where I -- who openly and aggressively advocates the city's interest to regional and suburban interests -- can no longer assure friends and family members that they are safe coming to the fireworks. Yes, you are right, no shots were fired. But what is tragic is that even if shots were fired, it's clear that the police do not have a safe way of controlling the crowd's reaction to it.

For many, the fireworks and the Thanksgiving Day Parade may be the only 2x per year that people from outside the city would even consider coming downtown. Now obviously, I believe that their reluctance is rooted in ignorance and I am the first to publicly correct what I believe is a belief system rooted in old thinking, experiences from many years ago, and both socioeconomic and racial prejudice.

But if those people will only entertain coming downtown twice per year, and 1 out of the 2 times there are incidents that put lives in danger, that's basically a FIFTY PERCENT LIKELIHOOOD that something bad will happen if they were to come down.

No rational actor would be willing to take that chance. That's ludicrous.

We must raise our standards, and we can no longer accept the type of anti-social and destructive behavior that allows the juvenile and stupid of behavior of a few to ruin the enjoyment for so many.

[Zug]

^Thats a defeatist attitude. By saying "it could be worse" you are by extension saying that any existing issues [[whether you perceive them to be minor or otherwise) are not deserved of attention.

If you only have a single lock on your door and someone kicks it in and steals your TV, you don't say "well, they only stole the TV; we don't need additional locks since they could have stolen the TV and the jewelry and sodomized the dog".

I don't think its a matter of saying it doesn't deserve attention. It's more that some are willing to say you can't really prevent it without taking away too many of our freedoms. To use your analogy...if someone stole my TV, I would not react by putting a chastity belt on my dog.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't think its a matter of saying it doesn't deserve attention. It's more that some are willing to say you can't really prevent it without taking away too many of our freedoms. To use your analogy...if someone stole my TV, I would not react by putting a chastity belt on my dog.

The problem with this analogy is that the chastity belt will not have any relevance or causal relationship to diminishing theft.

I'm practically a card-carrying member of the ACLU, but if there's any one place where the balance between individual rights and public safety are out of whack, it's Detroit. And not a little bit out of balance....like seriously past the point of any kind of rational thought.