Detroit fireworks marred by at least two unexplained stampedes

[compn]

WWJ interviewed a guy and his family. the guy said he HEARD a DPD radio say 'shots fired' and then he started running. DPD says they dont think they had that on their radio.

so a guy overhears a report of shots fired on a police radio and starts running?
thats just crazy to me. i hope this guy never listens in on the police scanner.

[Jason]

But even still that doesn't answer the question. The police could have been initially radioing that shots were fired because the people running thought that shots had been fired. Or for that matter a police officer could have even been the person who first mistoke fireworks for gun shots and started the panic.

[compn]

btw what purpose did detaining all them teens have?
did they find any guns? no?
any knives? they would have said so if they did.

so the whole justification is ... the teens may have gotten into trouble?
sounds like a good waste of police resources to me.

[4V4DMD]

Much respect to DetroitGwenivere's honest post. In the grand scheme of things, they're teenagers and idiots. Although some of it is an issue of the city's mentality.

[bailey]

Have you ever been in a crowd where someone sets off a panic because of something someone thought they saw or heard? I've seen plenty of situations where rumors start flying, nerves are on edge, and fiction becomes fact. I don't doubt there were shooting incidents somewhere in Detroit last night. But so far no one is able to corroborate publicly that there was a shooting at what was undoubtedly the most densely populated intersection in the state of Michigan last night. If a shooting happened at the fireworks there is no way that DPD could keep it quiet. There would've been no shortage of witnesses down there who would've been glad to jump in front of a news camera and tell everyone what they saw.

I can honestly say, no, I have never been in a crowd where someone sets off a panic because of something someone thought they saw. I CAN say I've been in downtown for the fireworks and witnessed melees begin because someone flashed a gat during a scuffle over whatever it is people feel the need to get into fistfights in public about. What I saw was it was the sight of the gun coming out that caused the crowd to react...not hearing something or someone yelling. Gat flasher left and we all went about getting settled back in.

Also have you been down there for the fireworks? You can't hear someone yelling right next to you, so I'm skeptical of someone claiming they "heard" anything that would have sent people running.

[Honky Tonk]

Despite those of you who seem to take issue with my OP, it's obvious that plenty of people were present to confirm what I saw from above and down on the ground: Chaos. Police and QL security both confirmed shootings took place as well as Bedrock employees who had their families at 1001 Woodward. CityCounty security stated the same last night.

Then all of the sudden this morning, the news and the radio act like "there's nothing to see here." WJR, which is basically in the pocket of Gilbert, actually stated several times that the crowds were "ruly" and that there was only a "minor disturbance." Was I having a delusional fit last night? Or am I just running away with the ball like some of you seem to think...

Or maybe I just posted what I saw and heard, which was the aftermath of a shooting and stampede.

Of course, walking downtown this morning you can hardly tell there were hundreds of thousands of people here last night. Those industrial street scrubbers that were deployed around 11:30pm did a heck of a job getting all the blood up from the street....

DG, I never meant to imply your obsevations and post weren't genuine. However, you didn't say you actually saw or heard shots fired. I was only trying to offer another reason, [[a ruse gone horribly bad) for the mayhem you witnessed.

[firstandten]

I like the idea of a strongly-enforced curfew, but at the same time, you can't just set a 6pm curfew for the fireworks and then expect everyone to magically know about it. It's still light out a 6pm, and that's still over 4 hours before the actual fireworks begins. Yeah, of course there's going to be teenagers out at that time and yeah most of them probably won't know about a curfew that wasn't heavily advertised.

Definitely agree, my point is why isn't this being enforced on a more permanent basis

[ccal]

Sad.........

[guito13]

I just texted with a good friend of mine who happens to be a state police officer. Here is part of our conversation, shortened for readability as we were taking about an upcoming BBQ at his house as well:

Me: Did you work the fireworks last night?
Him: Yup
Me: You are one crazy man...
Him: Hell yea, two shootings & countless fights

[Honky Tonk]

Everybody knows exactly what the problem is here but of course we cant say or do anything about it. So how do we make this event safe in the future?
Move the fireworks north to the shores or south to Riverview. Bam, problem solved.

Pulpit pimps can get a few more greenbacks in the collection plate screaming about Ford's racism in taking away 'their' family event, and those who want nothing more than to enjoy an evening of illuminations can do so without worrying about the ripple effect of DeCarlos and Shaniqua's beef.

Good idea. Why not move it to Orchard Lake St. Mary's? That's a nice area of town. Nothing bad will happen there.

[XDetroitr]

Sad how little things have changed since the 1980s and the Ethnic Festivals. I don't recall any stampedes back then, but plenty of robberies, assaults, and gang violence. On a positive note, it appears the police response and management is much, much better than in the past. I recall the police [[back then) just standing back and watching as the gang violence happened. Too scared to intervene.

[ccal]

Black people. smh.

[corktownyuppie]

Is the suggestion that, no matter the event or location, shootings and fights will occur?

Yes. The reality is that whether it is Westland or Farmington Hills, fights and shootings are happening. While in most [[or every) case, the perpetrators are young, black, and sometimes poor....the problem is that not all young, black, and poor are causing the problem.

There is no legal or moral way to limit attendance based on race and socioeconomic class. Therefore, the only real solution is to up the level of security to the point necessary and pass the cost on to the attendees.

[Honky Tonk]

Picked up on the sarcasm there Honky, but considering the demographic principally responsible for the issues at the fair this year, I don't see how it really works.

Is the suggestion that, no matter the event or location, shootings and fights will occur?

That seems to be the current trend. There was even a Noose article about Westland thinking of not having their carnivale because of incidents in past years.

[iheartthed]

Also have you been down there for the fireworks? You can't hear someone yelling right next to you, so I'm skeptical of someone claiming they "heard" anything that would have sent people running.

Yeah, I've been in Hart Plaza during the fireworks. For the exact same reason you stated I'm a little skeptical of those who claim there was a shooting when no one has been able to publicly verify it. I could see how someone could set off a panic by mistaking a fight for something more than what it happened to be, especially when you can't really hear anything. You see someone move away and your natural reaction is to run. Yet there are no eyewitnesses interviewed by members of the media, while there was no shortage of media in Hart Plaza last night. There are no photos of victims with gunshot wounds when everyone over the age of 15 has a camera ready smartphone. No media reports of gunshot victims at area hospitals. No footage of ambulances driving through crowds to pick up gunshot victims from Hart Plaza. Am I missing something? How do you explain all of these missing details? All we are operating on is hearsay from someone who knows someone who knows someone who might've saw something.

[Baselinepunk]

Baseline Punk wrote: He runs the city now; situations like this would be placed at the feet of the Mayor -- so what's Orr's fucking problem?

I wonder what you think should be announced just a few hours later? Perhaps some research about events in other cities , reflection, consulting with top security people, negotiations with the Parade Company, etc would have to happen before a professional like Orr would get on the news with "answers". After all, he doesn’t have to have sound-bites as he isn’t running for office.

I did hear two months ago from a high-up person that the City would soon be pulling out of the Fireworks and the big parades and that the sponsoring entities would either have to raise the money for security and support or cancel the events.

Detroit has no more money for that stuff.

So there you go.

Horse hockey. Again, this shows just how ineffectual this Capitalist EM model is. And, it exposes the fact that the EM is mearly a public version of Receivership.

All of those Capitalist Pig Dogs that run this state are very familiar with Receivership and all of the kind of goodies you can get from that situation.

Orr needs to stop being a coward and address this issue to the citizens of the City. The very foundation of the social contract is that the citizenry gives up certain freedoms to be safe and happy.

What happened last night was not a safe situation, and the people of Detroit should not be very happy with the way it is being swept under the rug.

We can no longer count on the folks from the fourth estate in this town to help us; they've been bought and paid for and are just plain ole 2 dollar whores.

Hold Orr accountable!!

This is his fault! He did not put DPD in the best possible situation to be successful.

He needs to lose his job over this.

If he cannot provide basic safety at events like this, how can he be trusted to do anything in the public interest??

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Black people. smh.

Black people. smh. ???

[corktownyuppie]

Horse hockey. Again, this shows just how ineffectual this Capitalist EM model is. And, it exposes the fact that the EM is mearly a public version of Receivership.

All of those Capitalist Pig Dogs that run this state are very familiar with Receivership and all of the kind of goodies you can get from that situation.

Orr needs to stop being a coward and address this issue to the citizens of the City. The very foundation of the social contract is that the citizenry gives up certain freedoms to be safe and happy.

What happened last night was not a safe situation, and the people of Detroit should not be very happy with the way it is being swept under the rug.

We can no longer count on the folks from the fourth estate in this town to help us; they've been bought and paid for and are just plain ole 2 dollar whores.

Hold Orr accountable!!

This is his fault! He did not put DPD in the best possible situation to be successful.

He needs to lose his job over this.

If he cannot provide basic safety at events like this, how can he be trusted to do anything in the public interest??

You're kidding, right?

[Downtown Lady]

Black people. smh.

This is a horrible thing to say, not made OK by the fact that you're black [[as you made clear in the Somerset thread).

[Eber Brock Ward]

Horse hockey. Again, this shows just how ineffectual this Capitalist EM model is. And, it exposes the fact that the EM is mearly a public version of Receivership.

All of those Capitalist Pig Dogs that run this state are very familiar with Receivership and all of the kind of goodies you can get from that situation.

Orr needs to stop being a coward and address this issue to the citizens of the City. The very foundation of the social contract is that the citizenry gives up certain freedoms to be safe and happy.

What happened last night was not a safe situation, and the people of Detroit should not be very happy with the way it is being swept under the rug.

We can no longer count on the folks from the fourth estate in this town to help us; they've been bought and paid for and are just plain ole 2 dollar whores.

Hold Orr accountable!!

This is his fault! He did not put DPD in the best possible situation to be successful.

He needs to lose his job over this.

If he cannot provide basic safety at events like this, how can he be trusted to do anything in the public interest??

[ccal]

This is a horrible thing to say, not made OK by the fact that you're black [[as you made clear in the Somerset thread).

Nah, it's not, what I should have said was "Detroit black people. smh." I'm ashamed of my people. They never fail to show their ass. I don't know if it's something in the water, air or what but man oh man they don't mind fukkin it up for everybody else.

[EastsideAl]

If there was a shooting, where the hell are the victims?

The sad and scary part here though is just how "on edge" Detroit crowds seem to be. Particularly [[but hardly exclusively) on fireworks night. It's amazing just how lightning fast the local rumor mill can spread terror or anger, even absent any evidence. And what a horrible job our local officials and media do in spreading truth rather than rumor and speculation [[even if the truth is "we don't know what happened"). Certainly the panicked running and driving around, yelling, physical intimidation, and seeming lack of command control or helpful information dissemination among our local law enforcement can sometimes serve to make the atmosphere even worse.

Having rather recently lived in cities where crime and violence came down during the '90s [[as it did here in Detroit), and stayed down, I find the difference between large crowds in those cities and here very noticeable. The edge of tension and potential violence in Detroit area crowds is quite often palpable, which is extremely sad. Coming back here a few years ago I hoped this had changed, as it has elsewhere, but I come to find that, if anything, it's somewhat worse.

I have generally put this off on our unusually toxic and mutually distant and distrustful race relations around here [[which can often seem permanently stuck in the attitudes of the '60s and '70s). But increasingly I've come to note something different and more tragic: a sort of bottomless insecurity among many of our young people that manifests itself in a feeling that even tiny perceived slights must be met with the threat of potentially deadly violence. And thus a fear in the area as a whole that all public events have the real potential to descend almost instantly into violent chaos, which leads to the kind of panic we see at the fireworks or even a simple football game.

I very reluctantly agree with others here - that it's become increasingly clear that we can't keep having the fireworks in their present form. I think it would be a shame though, and send the wrong message, [[and would really be no guarantee against violence anyway) if we were to take something that has been a free event for everyone in the whole area [[including our Canadian neighbors), and turn it into a pay event for the few. Maybe it would be better [[although sad) if we just took a few years off - especially since we don't seem to have the money anyway. Then perhaps sometime in the near future the nostalgia for what was once a great event will also bring with it the recognition of how a few of us screwed it all up, and we can bring people together to bring the event back for everyone in a better time to a happier, less tense, city.

[ccal]

If there was a shooting, where the hell are the victims?

The sad and scary part here though is just how "on edge" Detroit crowds seem to be. Particularly [[but hardly exclusively) on fireworks night. It's amazing just how lightning fast the local rumor mill can spread terror or anger, even absent any evidence. And what a horrible job our local officials and media do in spreading truth rather than rumor and speculation [[even if the truth is "we don't know what happened"). Certainly the panicked running and driving around, yelling, physical intimidation, and seeming lack of command control or helpful information dissemination among our local law enforcement can sometimes serve to make the atmosphere even worse.

Having rather recently lived in cities where crime and violence came down during the '90s [[as it did here in Detroit), and stayed down, I find the difference between large crowds in those cities and here very noticeable. The edge of tension and potential violence in Detroit area crowds is quite often palpable, which is extremely sad. Coming back here a few years ago I hoped this had changed, as it has elsewhere, but I come to find that, if anything, it's somewhat worse.

I have generally put this off on our unusually toxic and mutually distant and distrustful race relations around here [[which can often seem permanently stuck in the attitudes of the '60s and '70s). But increasingly I've come to note something different and more tragic: a sort of bottomless insecurity among many of our young people that manifests itself in a feeling that even tiny perceived slights must be met with the threat of potentially deadly violence. And thus a fear in the area as a whole that all public events have the real potential to descend almost instantly into violent chaos, which leads to the kind of panic we see at the fireworks or even a simple football game.

I very reluctantly agree with others here - that it's become increasingly clear that we can't keep having the fireworks in their present form. I think it would be a shame though, and send the wrong message, [[and would really be no guarantee against violence anyway) if we were to take something that has been a free event for everyone in the whole area [[including our Canadian neighbors), and turn it into a pay event for the few. Maybe it would be better [[although sad) if we just took a few years off - especially since we don't seem to have the money anyway. Then perhaps sometime in the near future the nostalgia for what was once a great event will also bring with it the recognition of how a few of us screwed it all up, and we can bring people together to bring the event back for everyone in a better time to a happier, less tense, city.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

[subsidized]

Maybe it would be better [[although sad) if we just took a few years off - especially since we don't seem to have the money anyway. Then perhaps sometime in the near future the nostalgia for what was once a great event will also bring with it the recognition of how a few of us screwed it all up, and we can bring people together to bring the event back for everyone in a better time to a happier, less tense, city.

This is probably the best idea.

[313WX]

"Detroit black people. smh."

Only a fool would make a stupid broad brush comment about over 600,000 people, 99% of which they haven't even met.