Detroit fireworks marred by at least two unexplained stampedes

[cla1945]

From a reliable source, an officer who was there, on the frontlines at the fireworks last night...DPD has been instructed to keep a closed mouth on the subject. There were at least 3 shooting incidents downtown last night, a DPD officer was hit by a car and his leg was broken. Juveniles were running rampant, they were being detained, parents were being contacted and they were very indignant as to why their kid was being detained. I guess the curfew didn't matter to them.

The fireworks is a tradition in downtown Detroit and the powers that be want people to think that Downtown is perfectly safe at all times. There were more State Police there than Detroit Police. Security was everywhere and yet the thugs that wish to disrupt a nice, family event, were still able to do so.

Until laws change and laws can be enforced; until parents take charge of these dysfunctional kids [[of course, most are dysfunctional parents); Detroit will not change. It's not the City government, it's not the State, it's not the church...the parents are responsible for their children and it's time to start placing the blame squarely where it belongs...in their laps!

[motz]

Being trampled in a stampede would.

I was actually there, right at Woodward and Jefferson last night with my girlfriend. Anyone who questions that there was a stampede obviously wasn't up front for the chaos, and anyone who thinks that blood isn't from the stampede, well they weren't there either.

About 3-5 minutes into the fireworks, a sea of humans rushed back towards 1001 Woodward, moving up Woodward towards Campus Martias. It seemed to subside fairly quickly, around Congress and Woodward, where we caught our breath. Shortly after, another rush of people came up Woodward, followed by a third shortly after. We left pretty quick and walked back up to Midtown.

The police presense and response was extremely swift and I think added to the chaos and fear, being that there were a fair amount of guns drawn and what felt like dozens of patrol cars swarmed in right after the first rush.

Being that we were present in 2011 when the 14 year old accidentally shot himself, plus this, we're going to be trying to find a better place to watch them next year. The show SOUNDED pretty dang good, but its hard to watch when you're making sure you're not trampled.

[Honky Tonk]

A person's body? That's pretty obvious. But gunshot wounds aren't the only thing that would cause a person to bleed.

Thanx for the update, little did I realize. I was wondering if anyone had heard what really happened.

[Honky Tonk]

From a reliable source, an officer who was there, on the frontlines at the fireworks last night...DPD has been instructed to keep a closed mouth on the subject. There were at least 3 shooting incidents downtown last night, a DPD officer was hit by a car and his leg was broken. Juveniles were running rampant, they were being detained, parents were being contacted and they were very indignant as to why their kid was being detained. I guess the curfew didn't matter to them.

The fireworks is a tradition in downtown Detroit and the powers that be want people to think that Downtown is perfectly safe at all times. There were more State Police there than Detroit Police. Security was everywhere and yet the thugs that wish to disrupt a nice, family event, were still able to do so.

Until laws change and laws can be enforced; until parents take charge of these dysfunctional kids [[of course, most are dysfunctional parents); Detroit will not change. It's not the City government, it's not the State, it's not the church...the parents are responsible for their children and it's time to start placing the blame squarely where it belongs...in their laps!

Excellent post! I totally agree with you about blame. You can't assign a cop to everyone present.

[aj3647]

I like the idea of a strongly-enforced curfew, but at the same time, you can't just set a 6pm curfew for the fireworks and then expect everyone to magically know about it. It's still light out a 6pm, and that's still over 4 hours before the actual fireworks begins. Yeah, of course there's going to be teenagers out at that time and yeah most of them probably won't know about a curfew that wasn't heavily advertised.

[313WX]

From a reliable source, an officer who was there, on the frontlines at the fireworks last night...DPD has been instructed to keep a closed mouth on the subject. There were at least 3 shooting incidents downtown last night, a DPD officer was hit by a car and his leg was broken. Juveniles were running rampant, they were being detained, parents were being contacted and they were very indignant as to why their kid was being detained. I guess the curfew didn't matter to them.

The fireworks is a tradition in downtown Detroit and the powers that be want people to think that Downtown is perfectly safe at all times. There were more State Police there than Detroit Police. Security was everywhere and yet the thugs that wish to disrupt a nice, family event, were still able to do so.

Until laws change and laws can be enforced; until parents take charge of these dysfunctional kids [[of course, most are dysfunctional parents); Detroit will not change. It's not the City government, it's not the State, it's not the church...the parents are responsible for their children and it's time to start placing the blame squarely where it belongs...in their laps!

Thanks for the information cla.

I guess that settles that. I guess now we have to question all of the crime reports in downtown.

[bailey]

From a reliable source, an officer who was there, on the frontlines at the fireworks last night...DPD has been instructed to keep a closed mouth on the subject. There were at least 3 shooting incidents downtown last night, a DPD officer was hit by a car and his leg was broken.

Call me cynical, but I find this to be a much more plausible explanation than people "mistook" fireworks echos as gunfire, panicked and stampeded.

[Honky Tonk]

Thanks for the information cla.

I guess that settles that. I guess now we have to question all of the crime reports in downtown.

It's not just Downtown. We discovered the same thing accidently while I was on a "Safety Committee" a few years back.

[Baselinepunk]

Alright, so what's Orr's response to this??

He runs the city now; situations like this would be placed at the feet of the Mayor -- so what's Orr's fucking problem?

Too busy wining and dining art dealers??

[Lowell]

No worries, Mike. My issue was with the headline, not its author I don't blame you because I went through the same roller coaster last night with media trying to figure out what happened. Lowell, any chance we can update the header now that the "shooting" has shifted from "reported event" to "plausible but unconfirmed"?

Actually your thread was the first of two threads created about this event. But the one with the word 'shooting' in its headline took off causing our automated headline algorithm send it to the top of the front page -- even though your thread was the posted first by time. When we are informed of the duplicate threads we merged them, placing your accurate headline in its place.

I think that was very telling of how the words 'shooting at the Detroit fireworks' attract eyeballs and explains why much of the local media ran with that rumor. The eyeball-contesting media knows that what sells and probably had their head-shaking finger-wagging commentaries prepared. They probably had dug out their footage from the shooting that did happen years back.

The truth is often boring.

[iheartthed]

Call me cynical, but I find this to be a much more plausible explanation than people "mistook" fireworks echos as gunfire, panicked and stampeded.

Have you ever been in a crowd where someone sets off a panic because of something someone thought they saw or heard? I've seen plenty of situations where rumors start flying, nerves are on edge, and fiction becomes fact. I don't doubt there were shooting incidents somewhere in Detroit last night. But so far no one is able to corroborate publicly that there was a shooting at what was undoubtedly the most densely populated intersection in the state of Michigan last night. If a shooting happened at the fireworks there is no way that DPD could keep it quiet. There would've been no shortage of witnesses down there who would've been glad to jump in front of a news camera and tell everyone what they saw.

[Ray1936]

Well, when most Detroiters are like the ones you see as customers on Hard Core Pawn, what do you expect?????

[Honky Tonk]

Have you ever been in a crowd where someone sets off a panic because of something someone thought they saw or heard? I've seen plenty of situations where rumors start flying, nerves are on edge, and fiction becomes fact. I don't doubt there were shooting incidents somewhere in Detroit last night. But so far no one is able to corroborate publicly that there was a shooting at what was undoubtedly the most densely populated intersection in the state of Michigan last night. If a shooting happened at the fireworks there is no way that DPD could keep it quiet. There would've been no shortage of witnesses down there who would've been glad to jump in front of a news camera and tell everyone what they saw.

I wonder if this maybe wasn't a "flash mob" thing? You know, like yelling "FIRE!" and then a bunch of people start to run. Pretty soon everyone's running but no one's sure why.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Despite those of you who seem to take issue with my OP, it's obvious that plenty of people were present to confirm what I saw from above and down on the ground: Chaos. Police and QL security both confirmed shootings took place as well as Bedrock employees who had their families at 1001 Woodward. CityCounty security stated the same last night.

Then all of the sudden this morning, the news and the radio act like "there's nothing to see here." WJR, which is basically in the pocket of Gilbert, actually stated several times that the crowds were "ruly" and that there was only a "minor disturbance." Was I having a delusional fit last night? Or am I just running away with the ball like some of you seem to think...

Or maybe I just posted what I saw and heard, which was the aftermath of a shooting and stampede.

Of course, walking downtown this morning you can hardly tell there were hundreds of thousands of people here last night. Those industrial street scrubbers that were deployed around 11:30pm did a heck of a job getting all the blood up from the street....

[Eber Brock Ward]

yes but "chaos" does not equal "shooting."

i saw the chaos myself from my wife's office in comerica tower, 36 floors up. the patterns of people didn't seem to me like when there's a shooting, it reminded me of the cass/brother rice game at WSU last year where some people freaking out freaked out more people and it just passed on into chaos.

[313WX]

Alright, so what's Orr's response to this??

He runs the city now; situations like this would be placed at the feet of the Mayor -- so what's Orr's fucking problem?

Too busy wining and dining art dealers??

Unlike the Mayor, Orr's not accountable to anyone in Detroit.

[motz]

yes but "chaos" does not equal "shooting."

i saw the chaos myself from my wife's office in comerica tower, 36 floors up. the patterns of people didn't seem to me like when there's a shooting, it reminded me of the cass/brother rice game at WSU last year where some people freaking out freaked out more people and it just passed on into chaos.

Having been right there, I can't stress this post enough. The crowds were running in every direction, to the riverfront, up Woodward, down Jefferson, etc. It was purely a case of chaos breeds more chaos. I know for my girlfriend and myself, it was trying to get out of that stampede/crowd rush that caused us to move quickly out of the way.

[Gannon]

They didn't learn a god-damned thing from last year's cluster-f of a lame attempt at curfew regulation. I'm not sorry I missed this celebration, last year's view from 100 Woodward Avenue was enough for a lifetime.

They've been lying about the fireworks for a VERY long time in this town. Even back to the last officially-reported shooting lie, which actually involved a female police officer firing back at the guy into the crowd and causing some of the injuries. But you NEVER heard that beyond the eye-witnesses' retelling their stories to police who bury and/or ignore them...or especially from the media who only report what "official sources can confirm". Fuck them.

You know damned well that all of Gilbert's cameras were filled with detailed, focused, zoomed, and highlighted action during and after the event. But it is in his best interest to maintain the lies, too.

There is no hum in NE Arizona...I'm just sayin'. Folks are peaceful here.

[SWMAP]

Baseline Punk wrote: He runs the city now; situations like this would be placed at the feet of the Mayor -- so what's Orr's fucking problem?

I wonder what you think should be announced just a few hours later? Perhaps some research about events in other cities , reflection, consulting with top security people, negotiations with the Parade Company, etc would have to happen before a professional like Orr would get on the news with "answers". After all, he doesn’t have to have sound-bites as he isn’t running for office.

I did hear two months ago from a high-up person that the City would soon be pulling out of the Fireworks and the big parades and that the sponsoring entities would either have to raise the money for security and support or cancel the events.

Detroit has no more money for that stuff.

So there you go.

[Gannon]

I also beg to differ with the person quoted in that M-Live article:

"The whole crowd started... coming around us; they said someone got shot, so I'm just going to leave," Curry said.


"We usually come every year," she said. "There wasn't any drama last year. It was nice last year."


Right as Curry said she was unsure if she would return, another stamped of people could be seen running and yelling ahead at the intersection in front of her and her children.

Just because she didn't witness any drama last year, does't mean it didn't exist. Do we have to call up that thread to detail my eye-witness reporting from above it all?! There were a few stampedes and an exodus of people last year, too.

Don't know why, but I'm all stirred up by this...feelin' Gwenivere's frustrations, perhaps.

[michimoby]

This unfortunately is also a case of guilt by association -- the simplest and fastest hypothesis to emerge on what causes a mob of panic in Detroit - or any major/semi-major city - is a violent or threatening act.

However, I think what adds to the perpetual fear is that the violence is homegrown: an anonymous citizen has the intent to cause harm to his/her fellow citizens. It almost has a more fearful, threatening grip on the psyche of Detroiters than the threat of terrorism could.

[corktownyuppie]

This unfortunately is also a case of guilt by association -- the simplest and fastest hypothesis to emerge on what causes a mob of panic in Detroit - or any major/semi-major city - is a violent or threatening act.

However, I think what adds to the perpetual fear is that the violence is homegrown: an anonymous citizen has the intent to cause harm to his/her fellow citizens. It almost has a more fearful, threatening grip on the psyche of Detroiters than the threat of terrorism could.

Agreed. The problem as I see it is that we need to move the primary focus away from [[but not ignore) whether or not a shooting took place. It either did or it didn't. We may find out or we may never find out. Either way the situation has escalated because it's now been demonstrated that the fireworks can become unsafe whether or not a shooting actually occurs.

And this is the problem. Even if a shooting didn't take place, the bottom line is that several people were injured and hundreds were frightened. It no longer matters whose fault this is. What matters is that it can no longer be allowed to continue.

I'm thinking that in future years, there will no longer be free viewing of the fireworks from public areas. There will be segments of downtown that will have high security with an impenetrable perimeter, such as that with DEMF. It will likely cost money to pay for the security, and that cost will be passed on to those who can and wish to pay to see it from prime locations.

Whether this is good or bad is no longer relevant. If someone can propose another solution, let's hear it.

[hybridy]

I wonder if this maybe wasn't a "flash mob" thing? You know, like yelling "FIRE!" and then a bunch of people start to run. Pretty soon everyone's running but no one's sure why.

sounds too simple right? there are a lot of people who aren't happy about the 'gentrification' throughout downtown/midtown and would rather wallow in the status quo. one can get away with a lot more that way.

it's much eaiser to keep people fearful when 'incidents' continue to occur

[illwill]

From a reliable source, an officer who was there, on the frontlines at the fireworks last night...DPD has been instructed to keep a closed mouth on the subject. There were at least 3 shooting incidents downtown last night, a DPD officer was hit by a car and his leg was broken. Juveniles were running rampant, they were being detained, parents were being contacted and they were very indignant as to why their kid was being detained. I guess the curfew didn't matter to them.

The fireworks is a tradition in downtown Detroit and the powers that be want people to think that Downtown is perfectly safe at all times. There were more State Police there than Detroit Police. Security was everywhere and yet the thugs that wish to disrupt a nice, family event, were still able to do so.

Until laws change and laws can be enforced; until parents take charge of these dysfunctional kids [[of course, most are dysfunctional parents); Detroit will not change. It's not the City government, it's not the State, it's not the church...the parents are responsible for their children and it's time to start placing the blame squarely where it belongs...in their laps!

I heard the exact same thing from a reliable source as well. I confronted this person squarely and almost posted her FB info as proof. She was RIGHT THERE and witnessed the whole thing go down. She said the incident is being down played in the media. I placed my association with her on the line by calling her out and challenging her and she fiercely maintains her sincerity.

This is very strange.

[Zug]

Regardless of whether there was a shooting or not...this was a bad thing. A stampede of panic is never good. Every year, something seems to happen at the fireworks to cause a panic. Add on top of it, that public safety people kept talking about not having something like Boston. I honestly do think that people went into the event "wound up" like they are expecting something to happen...either typical Detroit BS [[like a shooting) or an act of terrorism at high-profile "freedom festival."

I'm not saying a shooting didn't occur. In fact, it would not surprise me if one did. But did anyone here actually witness firsthand a shooting? Not the police drawing guns, but legitimate "I saw a trigger pulled and muzzle flash" shooting? Everything I've read is "someone shot a block away" or "I heard someone say he saw someone shooting" or "the police said someone fired shots." But any genuine eyewitnesses?

Maybe the best thing will be if fewer people actually stop going, then we can have a few low-attendance peaceful years.