Ilitch to demo Hotel Eddystone and Harbor Light

[emu steve]

Greatest good for whom???

Go to Philadelphia. Tell me about all the spinoff that has taken place in the parking lots around the Citizens Bank/Lincoln Financial/Wells Fargo moonscape.

And if the end goal is to end up with bars and restaurants [[i.e. "spinoff" development), then WHY NOT SKIP THE MIDDLEMAN AND BUILD ABOUT 300 BARS AND RESTAURANTS???

Thanks for making MY POINT:

Sports facilities and entertainment are best done as part of a coordinated effort to create a sports and entertainment area.

Philly did something like this but put it in a out-of-the-way area.

I think we all agree it was not a smart idea. I guess they looked for a lot of cheap land near a freeway.

I don't consider that smart.

Yankee Stadium is in the middle of whatever. When I went there the year the new stadium opened, I looked around and got on the subway after the game. I spend $0.00 outside the stadium. I beat cheeks back to Manhattan.

Nothing there of interest near the stadium.

Sports facilities need to be placed where people want to be and spend time.

Not the Bronx, not Romulus, etc.

************

The more I think of these threads the more silly I think they are:

IF Ilitch doesn't build in the CBD area, where should he build?

Pontiac? Downriver? Romulus? 8-mile and Woodward?

Someone TELL ME a BETTER LOCATION than Woodward/Fisher.

It is a dichotomy: Woodward/Fisher vs. WHAT?

and we'll compare and contrast the other alternatives...

[ghettopalmetto]

Thanks for making MY POINT:

Sports facilities and entertainment are best done as part of a coordinated effort to create a sports and entertainment area.

Pleasure Island? They have one of those at Disney World. That whole fake city thing they built? That's what you want in Detroit, right?

I like spending time on streets where I can grab a cup of coffee, check out some shops, have a nice lunch, do some people watching, relax in a park. I prefer to not restrict my "urban" time to those 3-hour periods when I have $50 for cheap seats at a sporting event.

You sell your city way short. You don't need to enhance Mike Ilitch in order to have a couple good pubs and restaurants downtown. But it appears that you, among others, have given up on Detroit, and see it as little more than a potential faux plastic playground for transient visitors.

There are plenty of incredible places in the United States that don't have *any* professional sports venues. Someone better inform them that they're doing it all wrong.

[antongast]

IF Ilitch doesn't build in the CBD area, where should he build?

Pontiac? Downriver? Romulus? 8-mile and Woodward?

Someone TELL ME a BETTER LOCATION than Woodward/Fisher.

It is a dichotomy: Woodward/Fisher vs. WHAT?

and we'll compare and contrast the other alternatives...

Wherever he wants, as long as he foots 100% of the bill. If he needs public money to build it then I'd rather not have hockey in metro Detroit than shell out one red cent to pay for it.

[Zug]

Zug is typical of Detroiters who worship at the altar of the billionaire. Rich people are like father figures to them. He won't listen to your facts; he already has his opinions.

Basically, all he's saying is: "Stop picking on Dad!"

Ha. I actually feel like I'm the one with the most reasonable & "middle ground" position. Some are saying no large development has ever led to anything. Others may think that subsidized stadiums are the way to go without question. I simply acknowledge that an arena would have a positive impact on the area around the arena [[but NOT on the metro area or region) & Detroit should only invest enough money where it actually is a net positive for the city. Hence mentioning that $300 million is only worth it if it actually means a genuine attempt at renovating 45 blocks [[as Illitch/DDA claim). Stadiums/arenas certainly are not the ONLY way to develop an area [[see Campus Martius), but it is one model. I don't really trust Illitch...he has been a huge disappointment. But considering he owns like all the land we're talking about, he sorta needs to be involved in the discussion of how to develop the land. How is that worshiping a billionaire?

But go ahead, believe the guy that just said his opinion is empirical evidence to support his opinion.

[Novine]

"But what would the area have looked like if Ilitch hadn't been buying up land and sitting on it for years and years? It seems like he's getting an awful lot of credit for "fixing" a problem he had a large hand in creating. Which I'm sure is exactly why he did it in the first place."

This exactly. Ilitch's activities over the years have done quite a bit of damage to the fabric of downtown and the potential for development and redevelopment of the area. But Detroit, particularly the DDA, is obsessed with big projects and doing the bidding of the Ilitch's of the world at the expense of almost every other consideration. The DDA also appears to have no clue how successful urban areas thrive. How about all of the talk of the spin-off development from the Casinos. How did that work out. Or let's talk about how the Archer administration destroyed a riverfront district that was coming to life on its own with the idea to create a "Casino District". Some of that area has been salvaged after-the-fact but only after the damage was done.

[Detroitnerd]

Ha. I actually feel like I'm the one with the most reasonable & "middle ground" position. Some are saying no large development has ever led to anything. Others may think that subsidized stadiums are the way to go without question. I simply acknowledge that an arena would have a positive impact on the area around the arena [[but NOT on the metro area or region) & Detroit should only invest enough money where it actually is a net positive for the city. Hence mentioning that $300 million is only worth it if it actually means a genuine attempt at renovating 45 blocks [[as Illitch/DDA claim). Stadiums/arenas certainly are not the ONLY way to develop an area [[see Campus Martius), but it is one model. I don't really trust Illitch...he has been a huge disappointment. But considering he owns like all the land we're talking about, he sorta needs to be involved in the discussion of how to develop the land. How is that worshiping a billionaire?

But go ahead, believe the guy that just said his opinion is empirical evidence to support his opinion.

Fair enough, I may be wrong about you. But I think also you've missed about a few thousand posts in which ghetto has made the points, posted the links, argued the cons and pros, brought out the statistics, explained the examples, and offered substantive critiques of "silver-bullet thinking." I think after a few thousand posts of hammering away at hard-headed Detroiters [[who really do sound like "Stop picking on Dad!"), you tend to get a little tired of pulling out the PowerPoint every time somebody disagrees with you.

My take? Maybe some large developments might cause spinoff. But Ilitch is such a real estate troll that he causes the lack of development in the first place, and then when he build the thing [[with generous assistance from taxes levied on people whether they like it or not), it's usually a one-stop complex that vertically integrates parking, concessions, dining, etc., so that nobody else may make a dime without him getting his cut.

That's not really going to help anybody.

[Warrenite84]

The last time I saw Mike Ilitch on TV, he seemed quite frail. How can we say these grand plans are all his? Wouldn't his son have some fingerprints on the development plans too? Is he cut from the same cloth as his father or does he have different ideas about development? We will see...

[Novine]

Mrs. I is calling the shots these days.

[Bham1982]

Yankee Stadium is in the middle of whatever. When I went there the year the new stadium opened, I looked around and got on the subway after the game. I spend $0.00 outside the stadium. I beat cheeks back to Manhattan.

Yankee Stadium is located in a real neighborhood. You know, a dense, vibrant, urban neighborhood. It's 100 times more vibrant than Nationals Park area in DC, which is a dead zone of office blocks and parking lots.

Yankee Stadium is basically the opposite of what Illitch is proposing. One is basically a neighborhood environment, the other is basically a mall environment. Places like Fenway, Wrigley, Yankee, are very different than the horrible new "entertainment zone" neighborhoods like Nationals Park with the game-day Applebees and other horrible venues for exurban drive-in visitors.

[Hypestyles]

is anything salvagable from the innards of the structures?

[313WX]

is anything salvagable from the innards of the structures?

Nope.

And even if it was, it would probably cost hundreds of millions of dollars to rehab. It's not worth it, thus the discussion abut how Ilitch is so mean and evil is pointless.

The same goes for the Hotel Charlevoix.

And you know what's the real irony here? I bet if Dan Gilbert purchased these structures and had plans to demolish them, everything would be just peachy with most of the folks here.

[Khorasaurus]

Nope.

And even if it was, it would probably cost hundreds of millions of dollars to rehab. It's not worth it, thus the discussion abut how Ilitch is so mean and evil is pointless.

The same goes for the Hotel Charlevoix.

And you know what's the real irony here? I bet if Dan Gilbert purchased these structures and had plans to demolish them, everything would be just peachy with most of the folks here.

True, but if Gilbert bought them their would be renderings of the replacement attached to the facades before they were even demolished. And the replacements would be rising from the ground six months after demolition.

Gilbert buys a building and the next week renovations are underway. Ilitch buys a building and 25 years later it's still sitting there - if we're lucky.

[313WX]

True, but if Gilbert bought them their would be renderings of the replacement attached to the facades before they were even demolished. And the replacements would be rising from the ground six months after demolition.

Gilbert buys a building and the next week renovations are underway. Ilitch buys a building and 25 years later it's still sitting there - if we're lucky.

If downtown's comeback is real, then the land will get redeveloped purely by market forces.

[ghettopalmetto]

If downtown's comeback is real, then the land will get redeveloped purely by market forces.

But just to be sure those market forces never show their ugly face, let's give Mike Ilitch more money to bulldoze more of downtown.

[313WX]

But just to be sure those market forces never show their ugly face, let's give Mike Ilitch more money to bulldoze more of downtown.

I'm not a fan of the tax credits, but it is what it is.

These will be two less eyesores to look at downtown. If these buildings can't be saved, there's no sense in keeping them around.

I can argue the land around these two buildings will become even more valuable now once these eyesores are gone. Can you imagine how hard it would be trying to attract people to condos in stone's throw of these buildings?

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm not a fan of the tax credits, but it is what it is.

These will be two less eyesores to look at downtown. If these buildings can't be saved, there's no sense in keeping them around.

I can argue the land around these two buildings will become even more valuable now once these eyesores are gone. Can you imagine how hard it would be trying to attract people to condos in stone's throw of these buildings?

You know what's an eyesore? An entire neighborhood of empty lots.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=detro...+Michigan&z=18

Now all we need to George Jackson [[P.E., right?) to declare the Hotel Eddystone and Harbor Light buildings "structurally unsound".

[313WX]

You know what's an eyesore? An entire neighborhood of empty lots.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=detro...+Michigan&z=18

Now all we need to George Jackson [[P.E., right?) to declare the Hotel Eddystone and Harbor Light buildings "structurally unsound".

As ugly as that sea of parking lots look, I'd take that over the lots being occupied with dilapidated/abandoned hulks. I'm sure the few remaining property owners would also. At the time, when people were fleeing from downtown Detroit, there was no demand or desire for these properties. Why should they have been kept around? It's not like they were going to remain in pristine condition, nor was it like it would be cheap to rehab them.

Besides, it's not like new buildings can't be built on these lots sometime in the future.

Try driving down Brentwood, Runyon, or Dresden Street on the eastside and tell me how nice the properties on those streets make the surrounding neighborhoods look.

[gvidas]

I can't imagine -- maybe I'm misjudging their character -- the Illiches deciding to dump at sweetheart [[or even realistic) prices the land that doesn't get developed as part of this arena. So, yeah, they'll hold on to it as surface lots while 'waiting for an interested buyer.'

Which is to say that the broad trend of landowners waiting to cash in their Golden Ticket -- by which so much reinvestment has been stifled -- will probably just carry on.

I just hope they bother to do a better job at dust management than was done with the Hotel Charlevoix. Thirty floors is an awful lot of pigeon shit and paint chips.

[ghettopalmetto]

As ugly as that sea of parking lots look, I'd take that over the lots being occupied with dilapidated/abandoned hulks. I'm sure the few remaining property owners would also. At the time, when people were fleeing from downtown Detroit, there was no demand or desire for these properties. Why should they have been kept around? It's not like they were going to remain in pristine condition, nor was it like it would be cheap to rehab them.

Besides, it's not like new buildings can't be built on these lots sometime in the future.

Try driving down Brentwood, Runyon, or Dresden Street on the eastside and tell me how nice the properties on those streets make the surrounding neighborhoods look.

The Book Cadillac was a dilapidated abandoned hulk. The Fort Shelby was a dilapidated abandoned hulk. The Kales building was a dilapidated abandoned hulk. All three are now paying taxes and contributing to the vibrancy of downtown Detroit.

Had those buildings been so casually demolished, they would still be empty lots a la Hudsons, Layfayette Building, Statler-Hilton, and on and on.

[casscorridor]

entertainment district ~~ mixed-use development ~~ spin-off development

buzz words that mean nothing without a concrete proposal and site plan

There is no reason to trust anything Ilitch says besides that he WILL build a stadium and plentiful parking [[surface, garage or otherwise).

He has a failing track record in doing anything else besides stadium and casino construction, parking lot development and demolition, besides the renovation of the Fox in 1988. Promise after promise of "agoras," malls and "entertainment districts" have been made and broken.

Perhaps now is different, a sign of the times, as Gilbert transforms Downtown into a corporate-friendly urban oasis. Maybe the younger Illitches have taken note. But their track record and aristocratic attitude leads me not count on it.

[downtownguy]

Mrs. I is calling the shots these days.

Mrs. I always called the shots. Her financial acumen has more to do with the success of the pizza empire than anything Mikey has done.

[emu steve]

Mrs. I always called the shots. Her financial acumen has more to do with the success of the pizza empire than anything Mikey has done.

That is a good point.

The Ilitch operation will not end when Mr. Ilitch dies.

Mr. Ilitch signs the checks for the Tigers and has David Dombrowski getting the players.

Mr. Ilitch was very, very warmly received last October at Comerica when the Tigers won the American League Championship Series.

[emu steve]

Wherever he wants, as long as he foots 100% of the bill. If he needs public money to build it then I'd rather not have hockey in metro Detroit than shell out one red cent to pay for it.

You are certainly entitled to your view, but I bet there are hundreds of thousands who vehemently disagree with you.

The rise of professional sports is one of the great 'inventions' of the 20th century. It adds tremendous enjoyment to peoples' lives.

I could not imagine living in a country without professional sports.

It is such a 'quality of life' issue, yes even for long suffering Lions fans.

[Honky Tonk]

You are certainly entitled to your view, but I bet there are hundreds of thousands who vehemently disagree with you.

The rise of professional sports is one of the great 'inventions' of the 20th century. It adds tremendous enjoyment to peoples' lives.

I could not imagine living in a country without professional sports.

It is such a 'quality of life' issue, yes even for long suffering Lions fans.

Did Ilitch buy you a cell phone and a prom room? Just wondering.

[Novine]

"You are certainly entitled to your view, but I bet there are hundreds of thousands who vehemently disagree with you."

I'm sure there are thousands of suburbanites who are quite happy to have Detroit take on a few hundred million in new debt to subsidize a billionaire's hockey team.