Ilitch to demo Hotel Eddystone and Harbor Light

[iheartthed]

Jeff Wattrick calls Ilitch out:

Just a couple weeks before Super Bowl XL in 2006, Atanas Ilitch, Olympia Development executives, and politicians like then-mayor Kwame Kilpatrick gathered at the Fox Theater to tell assembled media about Olympia's big preservation initiative. The first phase of their plan was restoration of the Detroit Life Building across the street from the Town Pump.

In a press scrum afterward, Kilpatrick explained that the Albert Kahn-design Donovan Building -- once home to Motown Records -- would be demolished in advance of the big game.


Seven years later, the former site of the Donovan Building remains the glorious gravel parking lot Kilpatrick envisioned while the Detroit Life Building still awaits renovation. That reality may change soon because Olympia is talking about restoring the Park Avenue skyscraper as part of its hockey arena plan.

http://deadlinedetroit.com/articles/...n#.UcizH_mG2So

[Novine]

Don't hold your breath waiting for anyone other than Wattrick to point out what Ilitch is doing. Most of the "journalists" in town are too busy falling over themselves to congratulate Ilitch on his "generosity" towards the city.

[jerrytimes]

Don't hold your breath waiting for anyone other than Wattrick to point out what Ilitch is doing. Most of the "journalists" in town are too busy falling over themselves to congratulate Ilitch on his "generosity" towards the city.

Really? The guy is building a $650 million dollar complex downtown, using no taxpayer money, and you're questioning his generosity. Don't get me wrong, I think the buildings in Detroit are amazing, but if it was possible to renovate some of these I'm sure they would be. After decades of neglect, it's easy to see why they are coming down. Blame the past.

[KJ5]

Keep drinking the Illitch kool-aid, folks. $300 million in taxpayer dollars for parking lots and a relocated arena.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^

[Bham1982]

Really? The guy is building a $650 million dollar complex downtown, using no taxpayer money, and you're questioning his generosity. Don't get me wrong, I think the buildings in Detroit are amazing, but if it was possible to renovate some of these I'm sure they would be. After decades of neglect, it's easy to see why they are coming down. Blame the past.

He's using $300 million in taxpayer money. How do you now conclude that there's no taxpayer money being used?

Good luck finding an economist who thinks that sports arenas promote economic development. If he wants to build, that's great, but don't make the taxpayers pay for it, especially when Michigan universities are starved for funds, the state has no money for medical/dental for the poor, and our roads look like Kabul.

[ghettopalmetto]

The people of Detroit must request, nay, demand that the resulting parking lot at least be landscaped and lighted.

Otherwise, this is just silly.

[Zug]

He's using $300 million in taxpayer money. How do you now conclude that there's no taxpayer money being used?

Good luck finding an economist who thinks that sports arenas promote economic development. If he wants to build, that's great, but don't make the taxpayers pay for it, especially when Michigan universities are starved for funds, the state has no money for medical/dental for the poor, and our roads look like Kabul.

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

[iheartthed]

For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself.

This is a false choice. These are not jobs that were ever in the suburbs nor was there any serious threat that the new stadium would have been built in the suburbs.

ETA: And spending $300M for a bunch of minimum wage jobs? Talk about having your priorities out of order.

[ghettopalmetto]

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

That depends. In some cases [[Baltimore, Cleveland to an extent), you might see restaurants and bars open within a 2-3 block radius of a new sports facility. In other cases [[Comerica Park, Ford Field), the impact is less so. DC has seen a lot of new development adjacent to Nationals Park, but there's a whole host of other factors beyond the ballpark at work there. In Philadelphia, there's jack and there's shit. A lot of "spinoff" depends on the location, how well the site is integrated with the urban street grid, pedestrian amenities, urban scale and design.

The "jobs" claim is moot. I don't know of any white-collar company that has relocated its office--ANYWHERE--to be next to a sports arena. The only jobs we'll see here are hot dog slingers, beer pourers, and parking "attendants".

If the end goal is to build restaurants and bars, though, then $300 million can go a LOT further if it weren't funnelled through the Macedonian Parking Cartel. A restauranteur can open a pretty damn nice place for $1 million or less.

The scale of this project [[45 blocks--is that right???), along with empirical evidence in other cities tells me a couple things:

1. This site is far too big to be filled with arena "spinoff" development [[an arena will fill about two of those 45 blocks). This means:
2. A lot of the site will be parking, or...
3. A good deal of the site will be one of those phony-ass corporate-chain "festival marketplaces" like Bayside in Miami, which really is just a play on a typical sterile American shopping mall.

In conclusion--there is plenty of land with which Ilitch can work without having to demolish these two structures. That the City of Detroit continues to allow such wanton criminal destruction to take place is sickening.

[Novine]

"If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive."

Give me $300 million to spend and I'll guarantee that I'll deliver way more in public benefit and jobs than anything that gets cycled through Ilitch Enterprises.

[antongast]

If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

But what would the area have looked like if Ilitch hadn't been buying up land and sitting on it for years and years? It seems like he's getting an awful lot of credit for "fixing" a problem he had a large hand in creating. Which I'm sure is exactly why he did it in the first place.

[emu steve]

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

Agree.

I want to comment on several points:

1). It is true that Comerica, Ford Field, Palace, new arena, etc. would be built SOMEWHERE. Either in Detroit or a suburb or exburb.

That said, the question becomes 'what is the greatest good' to have a consolidated stadium/entertainment district [[area) or to have the facilities located across the metropolitan area.

My belief is that consolidated development leads to greater spin off development.

What great spin off was there with the Silverdome or Palace?

2). " If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive."

Agree completely. I'm sure some will say the the development would have happened anyway, but when?

2025? [[I doubt it) 2050? Ever? [[given that MI and Detroit are not growing or fast growing).

3). I believe that consolidated sports/entertainment leads to a 'whole is greater than the sum of the parts'.

Eateries serve patrons from sports or entertainment. Parking garages and lots can be 'reused' for various events.

We've had many posters indicate that having more and more events 52 weeks a year makes it possible to have more eateries, etc. etc. because they can be supported across seasons by patrons

Now an eatery can serve each sports patrons each week of the year.

[ghettopalmetto]

Agree.

I want to comment on several points:

1). It is true that Comerica, Ford Field, Palace, new arena, etc. would be built SOMEWHERE. Either in Detroit or a suburb or exburb.

That said, the question becomes 'what is the greatest good' to have a consolidated stadium/entertainment district [[area) or to have the facilities located across the metropolitan area.

My belief is that consolidated development leads to greater spin off development.

What great spin off was there with the Silverdome or Palace?

Greatest good for whom???

Go to Philadelphia. Tell me about all the spinoff that has taken place in the parking lots around the Citizens Bank/Lincoln Financial/Wells Fargo moonscape.

And if the end goal is to end up with bars and restaurants [[i.e. "spinoff" development), then WHY NOT SKIP THE MIDDLEMAN AND BUILD ABOUT 300 BARS AND RESTAURANTS???

[Zug]

Offices may not necessarily choose to locate to specifically have access to an arena/stadium [[though that is a blanket statement based on assumptions and not any presented evidence), but seeing investment on a large scale in the city center can be inviting.

Plus, hotels, restaurants, and retail ARE lured into an area by arenas. These are places with jobs too...maybe not the best of jobs. Of course, the distribution of these businesses and the level of development are influenced by location. Residential developers are also lured in...and construction itself creates jobs and economic impact.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a new arena at Woodward/75 will be some shining beacon that attracts all sorts of businesses. However, if a hotel company or a restaurant decides to invest in the area, an arena may make them choose downtown over someplace like I-94 and 23 Mile. An existing business may choose to relocate because of similar reasons.

Plus, in a city like Detroit which has had a long population & investment decline, the power of a stadium simply maintaining the area around it can mean a lot. So the modest development around Comerica & Ford Field are probably a lot better than what the area would have looked like without them. It most likely would have looked like the area where the new arena is supposed to be. Broadway, Harmonie Park, and even Greektown got substantial boosts from consistent baseball crowds too. Every city hopes things get to a point where they can be sustained without need of sports crowds...but they certainly act as catalysts for activity in depressed areas.

I'm also not saying that we should use unlimited public money for these projects. It should obviously be a good investment. If $300 million really does go towards developing 45 blocks & not just simply to build an arena...it may be worth it. If it is just for an arena with parking...then it is a lot tougher to justify.

[Not In MI]

It was the MCI Center before it became the Verizon Center..

[ghettopalmetto]

Offices may not necessarily choose to locate to specifically have access to an arena/stadium [[though that is a blanket statement based on assumptions and not any presented evidence), but seeing investment on a large scale in the city center can be inviting.

That was the identical train of thought used when the Renaissance Center was constructed in 1977. How did that play out?

Plus, hotels, restaurants, and retail ARE lured into an area by arenas. These are places with jobs too...maybe not the best of jobs. Of course, the distribution of these businesses and the level of development are influenced by location. Residential developers are also lured in...and construction itself creates jobs and economic impact.

The empirical evidence shows this to be true within a 2-or-3 block radius. That is, if the sports facility in question isn't isolated from the street grid, as has been the case in Detroit thus far.

Plus, in a city like Detroit which has had a long population & investment decline, the power of a stadium simply maintaining the area around it can mean a lot. So the modest development around Comerica & Ford Field are probably a lot better than what the area would have looked like without them.

You are, of course, accounting for all the accompanying parking lots and the buildings that have been demolished to accommodate all this "betterment"?

[Zug]

That was the identical train of thought used when the Renaissance Center was constructed in 1977. How did that play out?

By some economic accounts, it had a large impact when first opened. However, it could not be maintained given the larger level of population decline and an acceleration of development of large-scale suburban office parks. Plus, is your point that no large project has ever had spinoffs?

The empirical evidence shows this to be true within a 2-or-3 block radius. That is, if the sports facility in question isn't isolated from the street grid, as has been the case in Detroit thus far.

You can't just say that without providing the empirical evidence you're referring to. Who's doing a study, what data is collected, and how it's analyzed are important things that I'd like to see. Not just a blanket statement.

You are, of course, accounting for all the accompanying parking lots and the buildings that have been demolished to accommodate all this "betterment"?

Yes, actually. Parking lots would be abandoned buildings. In either case, these are undeveloped pieces of land.

[Bham1982]

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

The Wings already play downtown, so I don't see any added benefits to seeing the same team play in another location downtown. It has nothing to do with the suburbs.

And I don't see why it's naive to say that development in the Cass Corridor can occur absent an arena. There has already been development, yet no arena. So I guess we are to assume that lack of arenas causes development?

[ghettopalmetto]

By some economic accounts, it had a large impact when first opened. However, it could not be maintained given the larger level of population decline and an acceleration of development of large-scale suburban office parks. Plus, is your point that no large project has ever had spinoffs?

My point is that your concept of "development through inspiration" has been tried before. It does not work. You can't build a Big Fucking Thing and then *hope* that people show up. Again, if the idea is to build a lively, thriving area, then sink the $300 million into apartments, condos, townhouses, and small business loans to restaurants, bars, and retail. Your method involves Magic, Hope, and a Wing & a Prayer, none of which are recognized by economists.

You can't just say that without providing the empirical evidence you're referring to. Who's doing a study, what data is collected, and how it's analyzed are important things that I'd like to see. Not just a blanket statement.

I can say that because I've walked the streets around a good number of professional sports facilities. In Cleveland, for example, so-called "spinoff" development from the Gateway complex goes about as far as Euclid Avenue, 2 blocks away. There is virtually no spinoff development to the west [[thanks to 8-lane Ontario Avenue) the south [[I-90), or the east. This is NINETEEN YEARS after opening. You don't need a study to open your own eyes.

Yes, actually. Parking lots would be abandoned buildings. In either case, these are undeveloped pieces of land.

Another false dichotomy. Parking lots can't be renovated into usable, leasable, taxable space. I challenge you to name One Single Instance of a parking lot in downtown Detroit being converted into leasable space. Even if you can think of one or two, there have been far more renovations of existing buildings, and still more demolitions than that.

[Zug]

The Wings already play downtown, so I don't see any added benefits to seeing the same team play in another location downtown. It has nothing to do with the suburbs.

And I don't see why it's naive to say that development in the Cass Corridor can occur absent an arena. There has already been development, yet no arena. So I guess we are to assume that lack of arenas causes development?

I forget that some may think of Cass Corridor as bigger than I do. Because there's certainly little or maybe no new development in the area around the proposed arena.

[ghettopalmetto]

I forget that some may think of Cass Corridor as bigger than I do. Because there's certainly little or maybe no new development in the area around the proposed arena.

That's because someone has been collecting parking lots in that area for the past couple decades and sitting on them. You're surprised by this?

Now I suppose you're going to celebrate Mike Ilitch as a hero for "solving" a problem he created in the first place. But not without fleecing the taxpayers [[again) first.

Ilitch Has Turned Swaths of Downtown into a Wasteland

Monday, April 15, 2013,
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...to-scratch.php

[Zug]

My point is that your concept of "development through inspiration" has been tried before. It does not work. You can't build a Big Fucking Thing and then *hope* that people show up. Again, if the idea is to build a lively, thriving area, then sink the $300 million into apartments, condos, townhouses, and small business loans to restaurants, bars, and retail. Your method involves Magic, Hope, and a Wing & a Prayer, none of which are recognized by economists

And my point is that these projects can lead to development. The key is to make it sustainable. Stadium leads to spinoffs...spinoffs lead to self-sustaining development. Even though the Renainassance Center itself failed, it acted like a catalyst around it [[over $500 million invested in over 50 downtown projects in 1977 alone & 50% increase in property value of surrounding buildings)...the city was just crumbling around it and the suburbs were more attractive.

I can say that because I've walked the streets around a good number of professional sports facilities. In Cleveland, for example, so-called "spinoff" development from the Gateway complex goes about as far as Euclid Avenue, 2 blocks away. There is virtually no spinoff development to the west [[thanks to 8-lane Ontario Avenue) the south [[I-90), or the east. This is NINETEEN YEARS after opening. You don't need a study to open your own eyes.

You're the one that mentioned empirical evidence. Your empirical evidence ended up being your opinion...

Another false dichotomy. Parking lots can't be renovated into usable, leasable, taxable space. I challenge you to name One Single Instance of a parking lot in downtown Detroit being converted into leasable space. Even if you can think of one or two, there have been far more renovations of existing buildings, and still more demolitions than that.

What you say is true. I was making the point that in 2013, there would be abandoned buildings instead of parking lots. Neither of which is "new development."

[ghettopalmetto]

And my point is that these projects can lead to development. The key is to make it sustainable. Stadium leads to spinoffs...spinoffs lead to self-sustaining development. Even though the Renainassance Center itself failed, it acted like a catalyst around it [[over $500 million invested in over 50 downtown projects in 1977 alone & 50% increase in property value of surrounding buildings)...the city was just crumbling around it and the suburbs were more attractive.

You're the one that mentioned empirical evidence. Your empirical evidence ended up being your opinion...

My "opinion" is something that you could easily see with your own eyes--if you chose to do so. I'd rather invest public money in a sure thing than to hand it off to a billionaire for something that might could happen. You're just trying to sell us the casinos, Commercialism Park, and Ford Field all over again. Those were all ego projects--nothing more. Where's the spinoff from those??? How stupid do you think the people of Detroit are?

Don't hope for spinoff. Make it happen in the first place through direct investment, and without the expensive ego projects that profit only the billionaires. Ilitch is a developer who doesn't develop...his primary interest is in collecting your hard-earned tax dollars while he bulldozes your city to gravel. This is the guy you're going to entrust--AGAIN???

[rb336]

in reading the article, I started wondering what, exactly, defines the Cass Corridor, as I had always envisioned it as Cass from WSU to downtown

[Detroitnerd]

Zug is typical of Detroiters who worship at the altar of the billionaire. Rich people are like father figures to them. He won't listen to your facts; he already has his opinions.

Basically, all he's saying is: "Stop picking on Dad!"