Ilitch to demo Hotel Eddystone and Harbor Light

[Novine]

Don't hold your breath waiting for anyone other than Wattrick to point out what Ilitch is doing. Most of the "journalists" in town are too busy falling over themselves to congratulate Ilitch on his "generosity" towards the city.

[jerrytimes]

Don't hold your breath waiting for anyone other than Wattrick to point out what Ilitch is doing. Most of the "journalists" in town are too busy falling over themselves to congratulate Ilitch on his "generosity" towards the city.

Really? The guy is building a $650 million dollar complex downtown, using no taxpayer money, and you're questioning his generosity. Don't get me wrong, I think the buildings in Detroit are amazing, but if it was possible to renovate some of these I'm sure they would be. After decades of neglect, it's easy to see why they are coming down. Blame the past.

[Bham1982]

Really? The guy is building a $650 million dollar complex downtown, using no taxpayer money, and you're questioning his generosity. Don't get me wrong, I think the buildings in Detroit are amazing, but if it was possible to renovate some of these I'm sure they would be. After decades of neglect, it's easy to see why they are coming down. Blame the past.

He's using $300 million in taxpayer money. How do you now conclude that there's no taxpayer money being used?

Good luck finding an economist who thinks that sports arenas promote economic development. If he wants to build, that's great, but don't make the taxpayers pay for it, especially when Michigan universities are starved for funds, the state has no money for medical/dental for the poor, and our roads look like Kabul.

[Zug]

He's using $300 million in taxpayer money. How do you now conclude that there's no taxpayer money being used?

Good luck finding an economist who thinks that sports arenas promote economic development. If he wants to build, that's great, but don't make the taxpayers pay for it, especially when Michigan universities are starved for funds, the state has no money for medical/dental for the poor, and our roads look like Kabul.

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

[iheartthed]

For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself.

This is a false choice. These are not jobs that were ever in the suburbs nor was there any serious threat that the new stadium would have been built in the suburbs.

ETA: And spending $300M for a bunch of minimum wage jobs? Talk about having your priorities out of order.

[ghettopalmetto]

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

That depends. In some cases [[Baltimore, Cleveland to an extent), you might see restaurants and bars open within a 2-3 block radius of a new sports facility. In other cases [[Comerica Park, Ford Field), the impact is less so. DC has seen a lot of new development adjacent to Nationals Park, but there's a whole host of other factors beyond the ballpark at work there. In Philadelphia, there's jack and there's shit. A lot of "spinoff" depends on the location, how well the site is integrated with the urban street grid, pedestrian amenities, urban scale and design.

The "jobs" claim is moot. I don't know of any white-collar company that has relocated its office--ANYWHERE--to be next to a sports arena. The only jobs we'll see here are hot dog slingers, beer pourers, and parking "attendants".

If the end goal is to build restaurants and bars, though, then $300 million can go a LOT further if it weren't funnelled through the Macedonian Parking Cartel. A restauranteur can open a pretty damn nice place for $1 million or less.

The scale of this project [[45 blocks--is that right???), along with empirical evidence in other cities tells me a couple things:

1. This site is far too big to be filled with arena "spinoff" development [[an arena will fill about two of those 45 blocks). This means:
2. A lot of the site will be parking, or...
3. A good deal of the site will be one of those phony-ass corporate-chain "festival marketplaces" like Bayside in Miami, which really is just a play on a typical sterile American shopping mall.

In conclusion--there is plenty of land with which Ilitch can work without having to demolish these two structures. That the City of Detroit continues to allow such wanton criminal destruction to take place is sickening.

[antongast]

If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

But what would the area have looked like if Ilitch hadn't been buying up land and sitting on it for years and years? It seems like he's getting an awful lot of credit for "fixing" a problem he had a large hand in creating. Which I'm sure is exactly why he did it in the first place.

[emu steve]

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

Agree.

I want to comment on several points:

1). It is true that Comerica, Ford Field, Palace, new arena, etc. would be built SOMEWHERE. Either in Detroit or a suburb or exburb.

That said, the question becomes 'what is the greatest good' to have a consolidated stadium/entertainment district [[area) or to have the facilities located across the metropolitan area.

My belief is that consolidated development leads to greater spin off development.

What great spin off was there with the Silverdome or Palace?

2). " If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive."

Agree completely. I'm sure some will say the the development would have happened anyway, but when?

2025? [[I doubt it) 2050? Ever? [[given that MI and Detroit are not growing or fast growing).

3). I believe that consolidated sports/entertainment leads to a 'whole is greater than the sum of the parts'.

Eateries serve patrons from sports or entertainment. Parking garages and lots can be 'reused' for various events.

We've had many posters indicate that having more and more events 52 weeks a year makes it possible to have more eateries, etc. etc. because they can be supported across seasons by patrons

Now an eatery can serve each sports patrons each week of the year.

[Bham1982]

No economist would say that a stadium/arena leads to a net gain in investment for a metro area. Or leads to a growth in jobs for the region. However, it can lead to jobs and investment into the area directly around a stadium. For many in Detroit, plucking jobs/investment that would otherwise go to the suburbs/exurbs would be an accomplishment in itself. If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive.

The Wings already play downtown, so I don't see any added benefits to seeing the same team play in another location downtown. It has nothing to do with the suburbs.

And I don't see why it's naive to say that development in the Cass Corridor can occur absent an arena. There has already been development, yet no arena. So I guess we are to assume that lack of arenas causes development?

[ghettopalmetto]

The people of Detroit must request, nay, demand that the resulting parking lot at least be landscaped and lighted.

Otherwise, this is just silly.

[Novine]

"If the arena gets built, you can guarantee that any other investment in the Cass Corridor area around it will be 100% because a new arena was built there. To say "it would have happened anyway" is naive."

Give me $300 million to spend and I'll guarantee that I'll deliver way more in public benefit and jobs than anything that gets cycled through Ilitch Enterprises.

[Zug]

Offices may not necessarily choose to locate to specifically have access to an arena/stadium [[though that is a blanket statement based on assumptions and not any presented evidence), but seeing investment on a large scale in the city center can be inviting.

Plus, hotels, restaurants, and retail ARE lured into an area by arenas. These are places with jobs too...maybe not the best of jobs. Of course, the distribution of these businesses and the level of development are influenced by location. Residential developers are also lured in...and construction itself creates jobs and economic impact.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a new arena at Woodward/75 will be some shining beacon that attracts all sorts of businesses. However, if a hotel company or a restaurant decides to invest in the area, an arena may make them choose downtown over someplace like I-94 and 23 Mile. An existing business may choose to relocate because of similar reasons.

Plus, in a city like Detroit which has had a long population & investment decline, the power of a stadium simply maintaining the area around it can mean a lot. So the modest development around Comerica & Ford Field are probably a lot better than what the area would have looked like without them. It most likely would have looked like the area where the new arena is supposed to be. Broadway, Harmonie Park, and even Greektown got substantial boosts from consistent baseball crowds too. Every city hopes things get to a point where they can be sustained without need of sports crowds...but they certainly act as catalysts for activity in depressed areas.

I'm also not saying that we should use unlimited public money for these projects. It should obviously be a good investment. If $300 million really does go towards developing 45 blocks & not just simply to build an arena...it may be worth it. If it is just for an arena with parking...then it is a lot tougher to justify.

[ghettopalmetto]

Offices may not necessarily choose to locate to specifically have access to an arena/stadium [[though that is a blanket statement based on assumptions and not any presented evidence), but seeing investment on a large scale in the city center can be inviting.

That was the identical train of thought used when the Renaissance Center was constructed in 1977. How did that play out?

Plus, hotels, restaurants, and retail ARE lured into an area by arenas. These are places with jobs too...maybe not the best of jobs. Of course, the distribution of these businesses and the level of development are influenced by location. Residential developers are also lured in...and construction itself creates jobs and economic impact.

The empirical evidence shows this to be true within a 2-or-3 block radius. That is, if the sports facility in question isn't isolated from the street grid, as has been the case in Detroit thus far.

Plus, in a city like Detroit which has had a long population & investment decline, the power of a stadium simply maintaining the area around it can mean a lot. So the modest development around Comerica & Ford Field are probably a lot better than what the area would have looked like without them.

You are, of course, accounting for all the accompanying parking lots and the buildings that have been demolished to accommodate all this "betterment"?

[Zug]

That was the identical train of thought used when the Renaissance Center was constructed in 1977. How did that play out?

By some economic accounts, it had a large impact when first opened. However, it could not be maintained given the larger level of population decline and an acceleration of development of large-scale suburban office parks. Plus, is your point that no large project has ever had spinoffs?

The empirical evidence shows this to be true within a 2-or-3 block radius. That is, if the sports facility in question isn't isolated from the street grid, as has been the case in Detroit thus far.

You can't just say that without providing the empirical evidence you're referring to. Who's doing a study, what data is collected, and how it's analyzed are important things that I'd like to see. Not just a blanket statement.

You are, of course, accounting for all the accompanying parking lots and the buildings that have been demolished to accommodate all this "betterment"?

Yes, actually. Parking lots would be abandoned buildings. In either case, these are undeveloped pieces of land.

[ghettopalmetto]

By some economic accounts, it had a large impact when first opened. However, it could not be maintained given the larger level of population decline and an acceleration of development of large-scale suburban office parks. Plus, is your point that no large project has ever had spinoffs?

My point is that your concept of "development through inspiration" has been tried before. It does not work. You can't build a Big Fucking Thing and then *hope* that people show up. Again, if the idea is to build a lively, thriving area, then sink the $300 million into apartments, condos, townhouses, and small business loans to restaurants, bars, and retail. Your method involves Magic, Hope, and a Wing & a Prayer, none of which are recognized by economists.

You can't just say that without providing the empirical evidence you're referring to. Who's doing a study, what data is collected, and how it's analyzed are important things that I'd like to see. Not just a blanket statement.

I can say that because I've walked the streets around a good number of professional sports facilities. In Cleveland, for example, so-called "spinoff" development from the Gateway complex goes about as far as Euclid Avenue, 2 blocks away. There is virtually no spinoff development to the west [[thanks to 8-lane Ontario Avenue) the south [[I-90), or the east. This is NINETEEN YEARS after opening. You don't need a study to open your own eyes.

Yes, actually. Parking lots would be abandoned buildings. In either case, these are undeveloped pieces of land.

Another false dichotomy. Parking lots can't be renovated into usable, leasable, taxable space. I challenge you to name One Single Instance of a parking lot in downtown Detroit being converted into leasable space. Even if you can think of one or two, there have been far more renovations of existing buildings, and still more demolitions than that.

[Zug]

My point is that your concept of "development through inspiration" has been tried before. It does not work. You can't build a Big Fucking Thing and then *hope* that people show up. Again, if the idea is to build a lively, thriving area, then sink the $300 million into apartments, condos, townhouses, and small business loans to restaurants, bars, and retail. Your method involves Magic, Hope, and a Wing & a Prayer, none of which are recognized by economists

And my point is that these projects can lead to development. The key is to make it sustainable. Stadium leads to spinoffs...spinoffs lead to self-sustaining development. Even though the Renainassance Center itself failed, it acted like a catalyst around it [[over $500 million invested in over 50 downtown projects in 1977 alone & 50% increase in property value of surrounding buildings)...the city was just crumbling around it and the suburbs were more attractive.

I can say that because I've walked the streets around a good number of professional sports facilities. In Cleveland, for example, so-called "spinoff" development from the Gateway complex goes about as far as Euclid Avenue, 2 blocks away. There is virtually no spinoff development to the west [[thanks to 8-lane Ontario Avenue) the south [[I-90), or the east. This is NINETEEN YEARS after opening. You don't need a study to open your own eyes.

You're the one that mentioned empirical evidence. Your empirical evidence ended up being your opinion...

Another false dichotomy. Parking lots can't be renovated into usable, leasable, taxable space. I challenge you to name One Single Instance of a parking lot in downtown Detroit being converted into leasable space. Even if you can think of one or two, there have been far more renovations of existing buildings, and still more demolitions than that.

What you say is true. I was making the point that in 2013, there would be abandoned buildings instead of parking lots. Neither of which is "new development."

[Not In MI]

It was the MCI Center before it became the Verizon Center..

[Novine]

"But what would the area have looked like if Ilitch hadn't been buying up land and sitting on it for years and years? It seems like he's getting an awful lot of credit for "fixing" a problem he had a large hand in creating. Which I'm sure is exactly why he did it in the first place."

This exactly. Ilitch's activities over the years have done quite a bit of damage to the fabric of downtown and the potential for development and redevelopment of the area. But Detroit, particularly the DDA, is obsessed with big projects and doing the bidding of the Ilitch's of the world at the expense of almost every other consideration. The DDA also appears to have no clue how successful urban areas thrive. How about all of the talk of the spin-off development from the Casinos. How did that work out. Or let's talk about how the Archer administration destroyed a riverfront district that was coming to life on its own with the idea to create a "Casino District". Some of that area has been salvaged after-the-fact but only after the damage was done.

[Warrenite84]

The last time I saw Mike Ilitch on TV, he seemed quite frail. How can we say these grand plans are all his? Wouldn't his son have some fingerprints on the development plans too? Is he cut from the same cloth as his father or does he have different ideas about development? We will see...

[Novine]

Mrs. I is calling the shots these days.

[downtownguy]

Mrs. I is calling the shots these days.

Mrs. I always called the shots. Her financial acumen has more to do with the success of the pizza empire than anything Mikey has done.

[emu steve]

Mrs. I always called the shots. Her financial acumen has more to do with the success of the pizza empire than anything Mikey has done.

That is a good point.

The Ilitch operation will not end when Mr. Ilitch dies.

Mr. Ilitch signs the checks for the Tigers and has David Dombrowski getting the players.

Mr. Ilitch was very, very warmly received last October at Comerica when the Tigers won the American League Championship Series.

[downtownguy]

Mrs. I always called the shots. Her financial acumen has more to do with the success of the pizza empire than anything Mikey has done.

That is a good point.

The Ilitch operation will not end when Mr. Ilitch dies.

Perhaps, not, but it will certainly not be the same.

Mrs. I was very conservative with the finances. When the CoPa was coming together, Ilitch was having a hard time getting a mortgage. Mrs. I didn't want him to use the family's emprire as collateral, but local banks weren't comfortable with the amount of the mortgage either. He ended up getting a consortium of banks led by the Japanese to give him the mortgage, but only after the County allowed him to use the proceeds of the [[County-owned) parking structure as collateral.

As for what happened post Mr. & Mrs. I, the kids have not always gotten along when it came to the family biz. Remember the showdown years ago between the girls [[Mrs. I and daughter Denise) and the boys [[Mr. I and Christopher)? It could be smooth sailing, or it could be a train wreck. Nobody knows.

[Hypestyles]

is anything salvagable from the innards of the structures?

[313WX]

is anything salvagable from the innards of the structures?

Nope.

And even if it was, it would probably cost hundreds of millions of dollars to rehab. It's not worth it, thus the discussion abut how Ilitch is so mean and evil is pointless.

The same goes for the Hotel Charlevoix.

And you know what's the real irony here? I bet if Dan Gilbert purchased these structures and had plans to demolish them, everything would be just peachy with most of the folks here.