Update: Tour Cancelled: Orr to give tour of neighborhoods to investors.

**brizee** · July-03-13, 07:52 PM

Couple of things.

1. I maintain the entire way the repeal, six week later reinstatement of the law and shady "interview" process with his law firm was, and is shameful horseshit. It took an acrid steaming piss on democracy, open government and ethics. There's no convincing me otherwise.

2. I don't see this "brilliant mind" his backers keep crowing about. After some of the dumb shit he's floated and done, his competence/ethics are in serious doubt.

That out of the way, I give credit it where it's due. This is a shockingly good idea, regardless of how effective it is.

http://www.freep.com/article/2013070...ankruptcy-tour

**marshamusic** · July-03-13, 07:55 PM

Isn't this just like the "ghetto tour" that was talked about in another thread, last month? :-)

**Novine** · July-03-13, 08:06 PM

Not sure what good this will do. These are bondholders, not investors.

**corktownyuppie** · July-03-13, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Not sure what good this will do. These are bondholders, not investors.

It's good in that it tells the bondholders that you can take the offer we're giving you, or we can wait until the whole city looks like this, and then you won't even get that.

**Novine** · July-03-13, 09:07 PM

Is this after they check in at the Book Cadillac?

48009 · July-03-13, 09:18 PM

You can take the same "ghetto" tour in any large industrial city across America. Detroit is hardly unique in this regard. Yawn.

**corktownyuppie** · July-03-13, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by 48009

You can take the same "ghetto" tour in any large industrial city across America. Detroit is hardly unique in this regard. Yawn.

Detroit is unique in both its severity and its scale.

**Cliffy** · July-03-13, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Detroit is unique in both its severity and its scale.

Even downtown Detroit is ghetto.

**softailrider** · July-03-13, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by 48009

You can take the same "ghetto" tour in any large industrial city across America. Detroit is hardly unique in this regard. Yawn.

Sure you can take "ghetto tours"in lots of cities, in Detroit it's more ghetto then city. Try finding that anywhere else.

**313WX** · July-03-13, 10:41 PM

What I take from this update is that the so-called negotiation aren't going as well as he thought they would [[they're not going at all), and he's ready to use the bankruptcy hammer.

**firstandten** · July-03-13, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

It's good in that it tells the bondholders that you can take the offer we're giving you, or we can wait until the whole city looks like this, and then you won't even get that.

Exactly, Orr is a very strategic guy, he's not doing this for his health. This is one of his ways of telling the bondholders take what I'm offering or take your chances of getting less. Look at this city do you think you can get better than what I'm offering ?

**313WX** · July-03-13, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

Even downtown Detroit is ghetto.

That's true, relative to other CBDs across the country. I saw a picture of downtown Seattle today [[a city that's historically been much smaller than Detroit) and you would have swore it was Midtown Manhattan.

**313WX** · July-03-13, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

http://www.freep.com/article/2013070...ankruptcy-tour

Couple of things.

1. I maintain the entire way the repeal, six week later reinstatement of the law and shady "interview" process with his law firm was, and is shameful horseshit. It took an acrid steaming piss on democracy, open government and ethics. There's no convincing me otherwise.

2. I don't see this "brilliant mind" his backers keep crowing about. After some of the dumb shit he's floated and done, his competence/ethics are in serious doubt.

That out of the way, I give credit it where it's due. This is a shockingly good idea, regardless of how effective it is.

And I'm also in complete agreement with this post. At best, he might convince the pension bondholders to accept his terms [[simply for the fear of how a Detroit bankruptcy might impact their suburban communities here in Michigan), but not one fuck will be given by the Wall street bondholders, even if Detroit were destroyed by a nuclear bomb tomorrow.

**corktownyuppie** · July-03-13, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

And I'm also in complete agreement with this post. At best, he might convince the pension bondholders to accept his terms [[simply for the fear of how a Detroit bankruptcy might impact their suburban communities here in Michigan)

At best?? We aren't looking for them to care with their hearts. We're looking for them to care with their pocketbooks.

Or at least, that's what I thought we were doing.

**Hypestyles** · July-03-13, 10:57 PM

this is a private bus, yes? not DDOT?

**corktownyuppie** · July-03-13, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

this is a private bus, yes? not DDOT?

DDOT, according to Freep.com

**313WX** · July-03-13, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

At best?? We aren't looking for them to care with their hearts. We're looking for them to care with their pocketbooks.

Or at least, that's what I thought we were doing.

Part of the reason is because they still think they can get the city to sell off its assets, versus accepting his deal. They can argue to the BK Judge that the city of Detroit isn't being equitable in its restructuring plan when it has $3 Billion Dollars worth of art work to sell, or one of the most efficient fresh water pumping systems in the world. They're know they're going to get a haircut [[most of their bonds are insured by third parties), but they're going to try their damndest to get maybe 20 cents on the dollars versus the 10 cents Orr is offering.

**gvidas** · July-03-13, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

DDOT, according to Freep.com

Looking forward to the headline, "Detroit Bondholders Take Tour of Ruins, Get Bedbugs."

I hope they do side streets, not just a loop down Grand River to 7 Mile, back on Gratiot.

**corktownyuppie** · July-03-13, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Part of the reason is because they still think they can get the city to sell off its assets, versus accepting his deal. They can argue to the BK Judge that the city of Detroit isn't being equitable in its restructuring plan when it has $3 Billion Dollars worth of art work to sell, or one of the most efficient fresh water pumping systems in the world. They're know they're going to get a haircut [[most of their bonds are insured by third parties), but they're going to try their damndest to get maybe 20 cents on the dollars versus the 10 cents Orr is offering.

Ah. Ok...I can see where you're coming from on this. I guess I have a few thoughts on this:

[[1) Turn back the clock to November. If we said that back then that unsecured creditors would get 20 cents on the dollar, I would probably have called that a big win for the city and its residents.

[[2) I don't know what a Bankruptcy Judge will do. I don't think anyone does. But I believe that a multi-party legal settlement negotiation is going to be useless to follow. It'll be the same as sequestration and the fiscal cliff, etc. Everyone will yell and shout about what they will and will not do...but nothing is for sure until everyone signs a piece of paper.

[[3) I would not want to go up against Orr in bankruptcy court. You're gonna spend a ton of money and time, and Orr still has all the power. Worth noting is that the longer it takes to settle, the worse the financial in Detroit will be getting. Meaning that by this time next year, it might only be 9 cents on the dollar, not 10. Which is why I support the EM model. It's essentially a go-to man who has the authority to negotiate with creditors so that as little time can be spent in court as possible. I know we'll have to agree to disagree on that, I'm just pointing out that it has not been his priority to screw all the poor people or all the residents while rich people in New York get all of their money,

[[4) I am taking the fact that creditors are going on this tour as a positive sign. If creditors were really unwilling to negotiate, they wouldn't be flying into Detroit and spending 4 hours on a bus tour. They would just be sending an e-mail saying, "We'll see you in court." Does that mean that Orr will be successful? Who knows.

**313WX** · July-03-13, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Ah. Ok...I can see where you're coming from on this. I guess I have a few thoughts on this:

[[1) Turn back the clock to November. If we said that back then that unsecured creditors would get 20 cents on the dollar, I would probably have called that a big win for the city and its residents.

[[2) I don't know what a Bankruptcy Judge will do. I don't think anyone does. But I believe that a multi-party legal settlement negotiation is going to be useless to follow. It'll be the same as sequestration and the fiscal cliff, etc. Everyone will yell and shout about what they will and will not do...but nothing is for sure until everyone signs a piece of paper.

[[3) I would not want to go up against Orr in bankruptcy court. You're gonna spend a ton of money and time, and Orr still has all the power. Worth noting is that the longer it takes to settle, the worse the financial in Detroit will be getting. Meaning that by this time next year, it might only be 9 cents on the dollar, not 10. Which is why I support the EM model. It's essentially a go-to man who has the authority to negotiate with creditors so that as little time can be spent in court as possible. I know we'll have to agree to disagree on that, I'm just pointing out that it has not been his priority to screw all the poor people or all the residents while rich people in New York get all of their money,

[[4) I am taking the fact that creditors are going on this tour as a positive sign. If creditors were really unwilling to negotiate, they wouldn't be flying into Detroit and spending 4 hours on a bus tour. They would just be sending an e-mail saying, "We'll see you in court." Does that mean that Orr will be successful? Who knows.

The thing is, I'm sure these creditors are already well aware of Detroit's situation. It's no secret that Detroit is the most dangerous city in the country and littered with blighted buildings. Besides, I'm sure Orr [[the city) is covering their expenses [[besides any private security or transportation they decide to bring along). Nothing's wrong with a free trip, especially to get another opportunity to try and convince Orr to sell off the city assets again. If the goal is to guilt them into accepting Orr's terms outside of bankruptcy with this tour, I simply have my doubts about that happening.

**corktownyuppie** · July-03-13, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

The thing is, I'm sure these creditors are already well aware of Detroit's situation. It's no secret that Detroit is the most dangerous city in the country and littered with blighted buildings. Besides, I'm sure Orr [[the city) is covering their expenses [[besides any private security or transportation they decide to bring along). Nothing's wrong with a free trip, especially to get another opportunity to try and convince Orr to sell off the city assets again. If the goal is to guilt them into accepting Orr's terms outside of bankruptcy with this tour, I simply have my doubts about that happening.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. And time will tell about the effectiveness of the pitch. Now, with that in mind, I need to share my experience of this.

I grew up in East English Village and lived there for 10 years after moving from a neighborhood 2 blocks from Denby high, where I lived 8 years prior. I went to U-D Jesuit from 7th through 12th grade, and we knew all sorts of "imaginative" routes to avoid traffic, including some which took us through some pretty desolate areas where we could drive 60 mph without hitting a single traffic light...these were neighborhoods where the new Hantz Farms trees are being planted.

I've pretty familiar with Detroit and have generally been comfortable in the more humbling neighborhoods in the city...certainly far more than my U-D brothers from the suburbs.

But there have only been two times that I have been really frightened from inside the protection of my car. First was in college when we were leaving a Greektown Bar heading west on Jefferson to get the Lodge only to realize that we passed it and continued down W Jefferson down into Del Ray at 3 a.m.

The other time was when I went to Brightmoor for the very first time for a soccer game at Optimist field...this was maybe 2 months ago. I drove around that neighborhood, and even for my eyes which are somewhat accustomed to varying levels of blight and economic depletion, I was not prepared for this.

So if that's the impact on me, someone who lives in the city and lived in the city my whole life, wait til bankers get FOUR HOURS of that from up close. It's one thing to know that a city is poor on paper. But when they witness what some of our brethren are living and breathing every single day, it'll send the message home. Yes, your sympathy is appreciated...but what we really need you to see is that we're not even down to the bone anymore, We've cut into the bone, and if we keep going, it'll all be over.

But as you said, your doubts are valid. I've been nothing but pleasantly surprised with Orr so far though I know others disagree. I'm rooting for him...this is not gonna be easy.

**TexasT** · July-04-13, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. And time will tell about the effectiveness of the pitch. Now, with that in mind, I need to share my experience of this.

I grew up in East English Village and lived there for 10 years after moving from a neighborhood 2 blocks from Denby high, where I lived 8 years prior. I went to U-D Jesuit from 7th through 12th grade, and we knew all sorts of "imaginative" routes to avoid traffic, including some which took us through some pretty desolate areas where we could drive 60 mph without hitting a single traffic light...these were neighborhoods where the new Hantz Farms trees are being planted.

I've pretty familiar with Detroit and have generally been comfortable in the more humbling neighborhoods in the city...certainly far more than my U-D brothers from the suburbs.

But there have only been two times that I have been really frightened from inside the protection of my car. First was in college when we were leaving a Greektown Bar heading west on Jefferson to get the Lodge only to realize that we passed it and continued down W Jefferson down into Del Ray at 3 a.m.

The other time was when I went to Brightmoor for the very first time for a soccer game at Optimist field...this was maybe 2 months ago. I drove around that neighborhood, and even for my eyes which are somewhat accustomed to varying levels of blight and economic depletion, I was not prepared for this.

So if that's the impact on me, someone who lives in the city and lived in the city my whole life, wait til bankers get FOUR HOURS of that from up close. It's one thing to know that a city is poor on paper. But when they witness what some of our brethren are living and breathing every single day, it'll send the message home. Yes, your sympathy is appreciated...but what we really need you to see is that we're not even down to the bone anymore, We've cut into the bone, and if we keep going, it'll all be over.

But as you said, your doubts are valid. I've been nothing but pleasantly surprised with Orr so far though I know others disagree. I'm rooting for him...this is not gonna be easy.

Agreed. Anyone who says Detroit is no different than other cities has lost objectivity [[which is easy to do if you are in Detroit often).

Coming from an outsider - look, the South Side of Chicago [[the city I left to move to Detroit) isn't all that pretty but nothing can compare you to what you're going to see in Detroit. I was shocked. I'm still shocked sometimes. I see the shock on my Texas family's faces when they've each come to visit me here in Detroit [[nonetheless they've all really enjoyed the city). I love it here, am happy I moved, but damn, it's bad.

As far as its effectiveness...as an attorney, I have a lot of influence in discussing settlements with my clients. The creditors' reps don't have ultimate authority but they have influence. I find it promising that 40 of them have agreed to take this tour. This isn't about a free trip - these aren't college kids living on a refund check budget. Good luck Orr.

**Scottathew** · July-04-13, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Detroit is unique in both its severity and its scale.

This statement is most accurate.

**mwilbert** · July-04-13, 09:36 AM

I don't know why Orr is doing this, but I know why I would do it.

I would show the creditors whose debt is secured by the general revenue of the city exactly what it is their debt is really secured by. I would show them what I was planning to show a bankruptcy judge in support of my plan wiping out the unsecured creditors entirely. And I would hope that when the creditors see the actual conditions that would be supporting my contention that the city cannot pay its debt, they are going to believe that there is a good chance that a judge will agree that, in equity, the city can't afford to divert any significant amount of money to debt service.

It is similar to prosecutor showing lots of pictures of gruesome crime scenes. It doesn't actually change the underlying evidence of the crime, but it still affects how people think about it.

**Baselinepunk** · July-04-13, 10:10 AM

This is just more kabuki dance. Orr is out of ideas; actually probably never had anything creative besides how creative he was going to be re-packaging what we have already known in this area for 20 years +. Orr is nothing less than Captain Obvious.

This dance is not for the bondholders; sure they will most likely drive'em through some crappy areas, and finish off the tour of the Robinwood "cherry" on the sundae.

Look, this is the Information Age; these Capitalist Pig Dogs are not going to see anything more than what they've seen and already know. This is just a chance for Captain Obvious to parade these Capitialist Pig Dogs around town; feed'em at the public trough for lunch, throw up his arms after they leave, and turn around to Detroit and say "Well, I tried but they are just too stubborn and a bunch of meanies so let's go to the DIA vault and party on the City".

Orr setting himself up to be known as the biggest scrapper of Detroit. And once this Great State of Michigan wakes out of this Tea Bagger - induced crisis and votes these all of these bassturds out of office in 2014, we will then see just how fucking nefarious all of this shit has been.

But by that time; to quote Gruber: "When they touch down, we'll blow the roof, they'll spend a month sifting through rubble, and by the time they figure out what went wrong, we'll be sitting on a beach, earning twenty percent."