Little Known Asset Causing More Bankruptcy Anxiety - Classic Car Collection at Stake

[48205to24]

I don't know about 35 or 40, but I wouldn't expect much sympathy from the crowd younger than that. .

I dont know about that. I am under 35 and I am young enough to start over even though I have put over 10 years at a job with a pension. I see that the pension may not be there for me even though I am vested. This is new, what happened at the auto companies is new. The stock market already failed jeopardizes peoples retirement accounts but it was saved and securities arent even a guaranteed, it is a risk.
Granted many probably should have thought about ensuring the viability of the company providing their pension [[i.e moving out of the city and or not paying some form of tax to the city is similiar to driving a Chrysler while working at Ford).
People shouldnt try to justify what is happening because a few people abused the system, corruption is not isolated in Detroit. The state and county pensions may be next. The vast majority of these people are older than 60 and some have been on pensions for 20 years or more. At least the auto comanies gave people the option to take a buy out before screwing them over. The city just cut and cut and cut peoples pay and benefits in hopes of avoiding an emergency manager and what do they get -an emergency manager.
This will be a blanket cut, they arent going to say oh your are 85 and your payment is $800 a month, we wont bother you. They are going to say take $200 of your $800 to pay your health care. Why do the working class attack other working class people? We should all be up in arms, the banks etc who have already been bailed out should take the majority of the hit. Why do we even care what ratings we have, we shouldnt even be thinking about taking any more bonds or loans until things are cleaned up.
Life isnt fair, and at least young people have time to change the odds in our favor.
I am not going to wish harm on retirees because I may not have that option to retire. The same way I dont wish harm on the millionaire bank manager who gets paid to turn around a company and still gets paid if he fails, even to the detriment of the company. That is a contract.
The city should honor human beings first, then go down the line. Wallstreet can take care of itself, of the federal government will do for them.
We are all going to get old someday, at some point in life we all will benefit from a contract a promise, deed to house, health insurance plan, bank account, a fixed interest rate on a loan - what happens when other entities start taking steps to breech these contracts because they dont have the money or resources to honor , other creditors are more important, etc.
People need to watch the karma they put out in the world.

Sorry I had too much coffee, and this board keeps me from ranting and harassing the people around me.

[RaumVogel]

This is why the younger generation needs to stand up for what their fathers and grand fathers fought for since the inception of this country.It's greed and corruption that is screwing us out of the freedoms they worked and fought for.The people at the top need to understand that this and future generations will DO SOMETHING about greed and corruption or it will be "business as usual".
If the current generation doesn't stand up and fight against this,they and their children's children will not have any life worth working for.

/ "Freedom isn't free.

[TexasT]

I dont know about that. I am under 35 and I am young enough to start over even though I have put over 10 years at a job with a pension. I see that the pension may not be there for me even though I am vested. This is new, what happened at the auto companies is new. The stock market already failed jeopardizes peoples retirement accounts but it was saved and securities arent even a guaranteed, it is a risk.
Granted many probably should have thought about ensuring the viability of the company providing their pension [[i.e moving out of the city and or not paying some form of tax to the city is similiar to driving a Chrysler while working at Ford).
People shouldnt try to justify what is happening because a few people abused the system, corruption is not isolated in Detroit. The state and county pensions may be next. The vast majority of these people are older than 60 and some have been on pensions for 20 years or more. At least the auto comanies gave people the option to take a buy out before screwing them over. The city just cut and cut and cut peoples pay and benefits in hopes of avoiding an emergency manager and what do they get -an emergency manager.
This will be a blanket cut, they arent going to say oh your are 85 and your payment is $800 a month, we wont bother you. They are going to say take $200 of your $800 to pay your health care. Why do the working class attack other working class people? We should all be up in arms, the banks etc who have already been bailed out should take the majority of the hit. Why do we even care what ratings we have, we shouldnt even be thinking about taking any more bonds or loans until things are cleaned up.
Life isnt fair, and at least young people have time to change the odds in our favor.
I am not going to wish harm on retirees because I may not have that option to retire. The same way I dont wish harm on the millionaire bank manager who gets paid to turn around a company and still gets paid if he fails, even to the detriment of the company. That is a contract.
The city should honor human beings first, then go down the line. Wallstreet can take care of itself, of the federal government will do for them.
We are all going to get old someday, at some point in life we all will benefit from a contract a promise, deed to house, health insurance plan, bank account, a fixed interest rate on a loan - what happens when other entities start taking steps to breech these contracts because they dont have the money or resources to honor , other creditors are more important, etc.
People need to watch the karma they put out in the world.

Sorry I had too much coffee, and this board keeps me from ranting and harassing the people around me.

I don't wish ill on pensioners, which is why I explicitly said I feel bad for them [[I even bolded it so it wouldn't get lost). I just have about the same amount of sympathy as I have for everyone else in this shitty situation. And I have more ill will for the city officials that allowed this than I do the banks. The banks' job is to make money. The city's job is to look out for its citizens. I'm disgusted.

[TexasT]

Question: are the pension board members elected by the pensioners? I think they are, but I'm not sure.

[48205to24]

This is why the younger generation needs to stand up for what their fathers and grand fathers fought for since the inception of this country.It's greed and corruption that is screwing us out of the freedoms they worked and fought for./ "Freedom isn't free.

That is true, the people at the top pull the strings and expect the masses to follow. Once young people start thinking for themselves, not relying on politicians, journalists, etc. Or adapting a culture developed by Hollywood, celebrities, reality shows, music, etc. And if you are going to go to college dont go for a career where the pay wont be enough to pay off your loans. If you cant pay for college, get a vocation [[i.e electrician) than go when you have enough money for the purpose of starting a career.
If your job offers tuition reimbursement, take classes, dont be lazy.
Dont be content working for someone else, there is no security in that.
This rich people in this country depend on people who are content in working for someone else, they dont respect these people and these people should never feel secure. Dont spend your extra money on things that make others rich, spend the money on something that makes you money, then use the profit to buy your new car, boat, $40,000 wedding, etc.
Took me a while to learn this, that is why I am making changes now, so I wont pay for it in the future.

This rant comes to you via the sugar rush of a Dutch Girl Donut.

[48205to24]

I don't wish ill on pensioners, which is why I explicitly said I feel bad for them [[I even bolded it so it wouldn't get lost). I just have about the same amount of sympathy as I have for everyone else in this shitty situation. And I have more ill will for the city officials that allowed this than I do the banks. The banks' job is to make money. The city's job is to look out for its citizens. I'm disgusted.

Thats the banks job and when they make poor choices, they should pay for it. That is why there is an interest rate on the risk. Maybe the banks will make better choices when the powers that be stop ensuring they still get paid no matter how poor the investment. Maybe when failing banks are allowed to fail and dissapear instead of being merged with other failing banks to create a bigger failing banks, all of our money would be safer. However, banks make money, money results to checks to politicians, politicians run the country. A lot of people made money while Detroit was failing, not just Detroit politicians, they may have been the sloppiest and most obvious culprits but money was made from the top down. Everyone will not suffer, only the masses at the end of the totem pole who have been taking cuts, poor services, etc all along.
Yes, pensioners elect pension board members. Most pension boards provide pensioners with an annual summary of investments, interest, etc. If it looks good they probably re-elect the boad memebers.

[TexasT]

Thats the banks job and when they make poor choices, they should pay for it.

Agreed, but some banks made an excellent choice [[solely from their perspective) in their dealings with Detroit. They got secured debt and exorbitant rates...Detroit is the sucker that accepted the deal. The banks' actions were immoral for sure, but we should always be on guard when dealing with soulless entities who are only after profit. We dropped our guard. No, we affirmatively tossed our guard down. The banks are assholes, but we were not forced into the deals with them. We [[and by we, I mean the city as a whole) have to take a certain amount of responsibility for what has happened here.

Most pension boards provide pensioners with an annual summary of investments, interest, etc. If it looks good they probably re-elect the boad memebers.

I hope everyone on the board goes to prison if what I've read about their shady investments is true.

[48205to24]

[QUOTE=TexasT;389596]Agreed, but some banks made an excellent choice [[solely from their perspective) in their dealings with Detroit. They got secured debt and exorbitant rates...Detroit is the sucker that accepted the deal."

Thats fine, but cashing on that security should not start with breathing people. Collect from things first then people.



" The banks' actions were immoral for sure, but we should always be on guard when dealing with soulless entities who are only after profit."

Everything is a soulless entity, government, banks, companies, etc. The people who worked with financial advisers to put money in 401K, etc were on guard. It failed, gov't stepped in and saved it. Everything is based on some sort of contract -deed, insurance, etc. If we keep allowing entities to break contracts with the masses in order for that entity to continue to exist.
What next? This is the first of many, if they are allowed to raid these pension funds on the actions of a few, then the county and the state will be next. Pensions all over the country will be at risk, because you can find some level of corruption in all of them. Send a couple people to jail but save a company/municipality legacy costs.
If pensions arent safe, what makes securities safe the next time corruption in the banks take over? Remember they failed before for this reason? Where will it stop?
They could at least change the bankruptcy laws so it is easier for the common man to clear out his/her debts to these banks?

These pensioners are 50 and 90, white and black and other, some saved extra, some didnt, they are human beings who built their lives on a promise [[that until recently has not been threatened).

People need to be careful supporting the interests of these politicians, wealthy and the financial institutions because they definitely arent looking out for yours.

These contracts they will use to replace workers will cost just as much as employing the workers. A city worker may have originally made $60,000 salary plus benefits with the cuts it will probably be more like $38,000 salary plus benefits[[10% cut in salary, 10% cut with furlough, plus higher health costs). The contract worker will $65, 000 no benefits plus the city will pay for any security needs, and costs to change orders. If they couldnt pay the $38,000 salary and benefits, they wont be able to pay for the contract thus borrowing money from banks. The city will be responsibile for the contracts as well as principal and interest from an old loan.
Much of the work already done in the city is redundant, contractor then city worker coming behind contractor to replace/redo what contractor does. Or city worker laid off and not replaced, leaving backlog, where expensive contractor comes in temporarily to fix backlog but stays. This is the way of government- family and friends at all levels.
New DWSD director from Ann Arbor brought executives from Ann Arbor. Until the banks and big business are allowed to fail based on bad choices, nothing will change. Checks will be cut to politicians who make the rules and lobbyists/public relations lobbyists will keep that dont play the game from being re-elected.
Capitalism is a game, the unions have been busted and big business is winning, people can no longer sit at the sidelines working for someone else and hope not to get hit.
Maybe the retirees can pool their resources and experience start a company and get some of these contracts.

This thread has been totally hijacked. Let me try to at least get it back on track.
We may not be willing to sell art from the DIA to decrease the debt, but can't we at least let a few cars go? At least get them out of storage.

[Dumpling]

This is a thread about classic cars, but Texas T posted a Q about the makeup
of the pension board, and for the General Retirement System, unless it has
changed, there are 11 total members on the board, 5 being active city
employees, 1 being a retired employee, and 5 being members of the city
administration. The Bing administration has proposed to reduce the 5 active
members to three while leaving the total members unchanged, giving the
elected administration effective control of the GRS. Back to the cars!

[EastsideAl]

This is why the younger generation needs to stand up for what their fathers and grand fathers fought for since the inception of this country.It's greed and corruption that is screwing us out of the freedoms they worked and fought for.The people at the top need to understand that this and future generations will DO SOMETHING about greed and corruption or it will be "business as usual".
If the current generation doesn't stand up and fight against this,they and their children's children will not have any life worth working for.

Of course, the generation that voted in Ronald Reagan, the Bushes, Engler, and rafts of other anti-union, anti-pension, anti-worker, pro-globalization, and pro-corporate and financial sector politicians into office must bear some considerable part of the responsibility for leaving the now-practically powerless younger generation an almost impossible uphill battle. You people voted your own children into the poorhouse. To blame them for the present problems is, it seems to me, tantamount to blaming the victims.

[Locke09]

The only pain I see in Kevin Orr's plan is that which will be felt by current employees, retirees and bondholders [[not the banks with their "secured" debt and not citizens). Orr's plan calls for paying the secured debt and improving city services using the money that would be saved from not paying bondholders and reducing employee and retiree benefits.

You can argue that the citizens have had enough pain, but current employees and retirees have also already had cuts in reduced pay and reduced benefits.

But the real thing people should be considering is this:

20 billion in debts and liabilities is the latest number being thrown about. It changes each week. Of that 20 billion, 5 billion is not really debt - it is projected health care payments over the next 30 years. Orr is proposing almost wiping that out [[99.6% of it) by eliminating healthcare for retirees and reducing it for current employees. That leaves 15 billion.

Of that 15 billion, Orr is proposing continuing to pay the 12.5 billion that is "secured". The retirees and bondholders only represent 2.5 billion of the 15 billion in true debt. That is about a 17% reduction in debt. All 17% comes off the backs of retirees and bondholders. Everybody else is going to still get paid.

Bondholders and lenders take an explicit risk. That is why they got interest on their money. Vendors who provided a service and retirees who provided a service did not.

BTW, public and private pensions are in trouble in large part because they were raided and improperly funded for so many years. By the time the government decided to make entities fund them at the proper levels, companies and municipalities had to play a big game of "catch up." But the economy tanked and they didn't have the resources to catch up. So now they just want to dump the liability. You shouldn't be able to withhold funds that should have gone into the pension, and then whine about your big unfunded liability.