Massive I-94, I-75 reconstruction projects on horizon for Metro Detroit

**casscorridor** · June-21-13, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

The bottom line is, it's going to move people faster to where they're going. It's going to buy us some time to start working on real regional transit. While I'm not hopeful we will ever really get it done, I do think attitudes are starting to change. Hopefully they change fast enough.

At a FOUR BILLION dollar price tag. Is that worth it? The state can't even penny a few million for Woodward Light rail yet they spend billions making it a few minutes faster to get through Detroit [[key word through)???

We don't need time to think about regional transit. It is very simple. You start building lines going out from the Downtown connecting to major points in the suburbs. Not freakin' rocket science. No need to reinvent the wheel here people! Throw this kind of money at transit and it will get built... fast.

**Hermod** · June-21-13, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

Actually, the route of I-275 was originally to be I-75 itself, and the local spur was to come up the route of current I-75 & continue straight past where it makes that abrupt turn at [[the former) Hastings St. I believe it then at some point connected to I-94. Things changed when those in the route of the incomplete I-275 balked at having the freeway plow through.

The inside Detroit location of the Chrysler, like the Lodge and the Ford, was conceived in Detroit's master freeway plan long before the interstate highway system legislation was passed. By making it a part of the interstate system, Detroit got Uncle Sugar to pay 90% of the cost.

**Hypestyles** · June-21-13, 08:40 AM

I want to see light rail lines along the freeways.

**Scottathew** · June-21-13, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

I want to see light rail lines along the freeways.

I'd like to see light rail, I just don't know if it makes the most sense to put it along the freeways.

We really need light rail that isn't at grade, for example a subway through densely populated areas that transitions to elevated rail.

The big thing is that light rail needs to be the FASTER option. I spent some time in Manhattan and going somewhere by car or taxi was slow. If you could get to where you were going using one or two subway lines it was amazingly faster.

I'm moving to Rochester Hills soon and there is amazingly a total lack of any kind of transit, not even buses. It would be nice to see a BRT route run down John R to Woodward and all the way downtown. It could be used for downtown workers as well as a way for people to go downtown for games and such.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-21-13, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

I want to see light rail lines along the freeways.

Light rail on freeways is nuts. Light rail operates as a streetcar. I think what you mean is heavy rail like what Chicago has.

Rail in the middle of freeways is the antithesis of the arguments that many on this thread have espoused. This will make the freeway gap much wider, not narrower! At a minimum you would need to widen the freeway by 50-60 feet additional. Since the stations will be located far from any developable land, and that area is very noisy you will not get TOD [[transit orientated design/ development) spin-offs.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-21-13, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Detroit already has, so far as I have been able to determine, more lane-miles of free expressway per capita than any major city in the world. And so far it's working out great; so yeah, let's add some more.

You need to visit MSP. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=msp&hl...=m&hq=msp&z=11

In the 16 county metro area, there are 3.3 million.

For comparison, Metro Detroit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Detroi...higan&t=m&z=11

Its seven county metro area is just shy of 5 million.

Current list of miles of freeway per caps.
http://streetsblog.net/2012/04/20/ci...-who-of-decay/

This list shows metro Detroit as being between ultra eco Portland and uber dense Boston.
http://www.publicpurpose.com/hwy-tti99ratio.htm

**professorscott** · June-21-13, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You need to visit MSP. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=msp&hl...=m&hq=msp&z=11

In the 16 county metro area, there are 3.3 million.

For comparison, Metro Detroit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Detroi...higan&t=m&z=11

Its seven county metro area is just shy of 5 million.

Current list of miles of freeway per caps.
http://streetsblog.net/2012/04/20/ci...-who-of-decay/

This list shows metro Detroit as being between ultra eco Portland and uber dense Boston.
http://www.publicpurpose.com/hwy-tti99ratio.htm

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to Detroit per se, the City with it's sub-700K population, not the metro region with its many millions. Obviously if you include the vast unbuilt expanses of northwest Oakland County and so on, it's a lot different. I'm making a city-to-city comparison here, not a region-to-region comparison. The region isn't, overall, quite as "broken" as the City. But thanks for the refs.

**professorscott** · June-21-13, 12:21 PM

And then looking at the source of the data is this killer: "They have good data on highway miles, but only estimated lane miles unfortunately. Still that is the critical one."

**professorscott** · June-21-13, 12:35 PM

OK, here's some data to start with, then let's see where the facts take us. By my calculations there are 395 lane-miles of expressway in the City proper. [[I know how many lanes each segment of freeway is, with a few short exceptions, and it's easy to measure the distances.) If I'm wrong, and someone has a precise number, let me know.

The census bureau estimates the 2012 population at 701,475. So based on that, Detroit has 56.31 lane-miles of expressway per 100K population. [[And that's before any further expansion.)

If you can find a major city that beats that, let me know. "Major city" is to avoid situations like Pleasant Ridge. Let's say anything over 250K population counts for this purpose. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but doubt that I am.

**Detroitnerd** · June-21-13, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

If you can find a major city that beats that, let me know. "Major city" is to avoid situations like Pleasant Ridge. Let's say anything over 250K population counts for this purpose. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but doubt that I am.

profscott: In my readings, the only city with more lane-miles per resident than Detroit is Kansas City.

**bailey** · June-21-13, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

OK, here's some data to start with, then let's see where the facts take us. By my calculations there are 395 lane-miles of expressway in the City proper. [[I know how many lanes each segment of freeway is, with a few short exceptions, and it's easy to measure the distances.) If I'm wrong, and someone has a precise number, let me know.

The census bureau estimates the 2012 population at 701,475. So based on that, Detroit has 56.31 lane-miles of expressway per 100K population. [[And that's before any further expansion.)

If you can find a major city that beats that, let me know. "Major city" is to avoid situations like Pleasant Ridge. Let's say anything over 250K population counts for this purpose. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but doubt that I am.

Sort of a side question but, why do we care about city proper only? Aren't most of the expansions happening outside the city?

and if we do, wouldn't we need to look at daytime population. I mean you're not counting 10s of thousands[[?) of commuters coming into Detroit, to the CBD, MidTown, etc... in that number right?

**stasu1213** · June-21-13, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Putting on my devils advocate hat:

How about we take the freeway away and put all of that congestion and idling trucks on surface streets like Grand Blvd, Warren, or Harper? What will that do for safety, air quality, timely transit, or quality of life in New Center, Midtown, or other neighborhoods? Is this really less destructive? How? What will happen when truck travel increases because of the new bridge crossing?

How about just spending half of the money on repaving I94 and I75 and use the rest on laying tracks on Woodward, Gratiot, Michigan, and Grand River for the light rail. Air pollution would not be a problem as well

**Khorasaurus** · June-21-13, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Aren't most of the expansions happening outside the city?

No. Most of the expansions are on I-94 in the city limits.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-21-13, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to Detroit per se, the City with it's sub-700K population, not the metro region with its many millions. Obviously if you include the vast unbuilt expanses of northwest Oakland County and so on, it's a lot different. I'm making a city-to-city comparison here, not a region-to-region comparison. The region isn't, overall, quite as "broken" as the City. But thanks for the refs.

I was wondering about that.

So this is a fascinating but irrelevant statistic. Any idea where the Detroit SMSA sits in comparison to other cities. I would think we'd be slightly above average.

**bailey** · June-21-13, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

No. Most of the expansions are on I-94 in the city limits.

I only see that they are widening 7 miles of 94 where as they are doing 18 miles of I75 and all that 96 work.

**Khorasaurus** · June-21-13, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I only see that they are widening 7 miles of 94 where as they are doing 18 miles of I75 and all that 96 work.

Yeah but the cost of the 94 widening is 2.7 billion because it is more thorough than the 75 widening [[1 billion price tag).

Was 96 through Livonia part of this as well? I thought that was a previous plan.

**bailey** · June-21-13, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

Yeah but the cost of the 94 widening is 2.7 billion because it is more thorough than the 75 widening [[1 billion price tag).

Was 96 through Livonia part of this as well? I thought that was a previous plan.

ah. I was thinking in distances being widened and lane miles of capacity , not dollars. Also, the 94 work is a lot of bridge replacement and exit/entrance fixes too...right? I mean widen or not, the bridges are getting replaces and the entrances are getting fixed.

**Khorasaurus** · June-21-13, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

ah. I was thinking in distances being widened and lane miles of capacity , not dollars. Also, the 94 work is a lot of bridge replacement and exit/entrance fixes too...right? I mean widen or not, the bridges are getting replaces and the entrances are getting fixed.

Yeah and almost everyone agrees that needs to get done. The problem is that MDOT managed to do that for the entire lengths of both the Southfield and the Lodge for about 10% of what the I-94 project will cost.

**Brian1979** · June-21-13, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Newdetroit

I would prefer to see
1) M-59 connected from M-23 to I-94 [[converting Hall road into a highway);
2) Van Dyke M-53 from Washington to Imlay City [[converting Van Dyke into a highway)
3) Haggerty Connecter from I-96 connected to I-75 in Clarkston pasing through M-59. [[converting haggerty connector, martin parkway, union lake, S. Willaims Lake, Maceday Lake, Nelsey Lake, White Lake, Dixie Highway into a highway)

There is no way at all that any of these things are going to happen. Especially #3, where exactly are you going to put an expressway in Oakland County in that area? That area is already developed and I'm sure residents in that area would be against it like they were when it was originally planned to go through there.

DarkestbeforedawnDetroit · June-21-13, 03:54 PM

To think the only major city without light rail or streetcar and we lost the opportunity to creating wider barriers to developement. We nees to fire every public official in SE Michigan

**Newdetroit** · June-21-13, 08:22 PM

Talking about religion and freeways, I actually have a solution. All of you remember the Jewish Community battling with 696 freeway going through Oak Park. Well, they ended up building a park on top of the overpass to keep the community from being separated. So, why not have I-94 [[between I-75 and the lodge) be a tunnel like 696 in Oak Park and New Center and Midtown could be connected like it never was before?????????????????????????????????????????

**professorscott** · June-21-13, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Newdetroit

Talking about religion and freeways, I actually have a solution. All of you remember the Jewish Community battling with 696 freeway going through Oak Park. Well, they ended up building a park on top of the overpass to keep the community from being separated. So, why not have I-94 [[between I-75 and the lodge) be a tunnel like 696 in Oak Park and New Center and Midtown could be connected like it never was before?????????????????????????????????????????

That is a splendid idea. You would have to have ventilation breaks [[Oak Park's deal is not one, long, continuous park, but a few of them spaced fairly close together) but it would certainly work aesthetically. It would add some cost to the preojct but it's worth considering. Any MDOT folks reading these posts?

**Cliffy** · June-22-13, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

I only see that they are widening 7 miles of 94 where as they are doing 18 miles of I75 and all that 96 work.

I don't see how I-75 is only 1 billion. Adding another lane in both directions for 18 miles and reconstructing the whole freeway and replacing all the bridges. Not to mention all the land you have to acquire for the extra lanes. That can't be cheap in Oakland County.

**Hermod** · June-22-13, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

I don't see how I-75 is only 1 billion. Adding another lane in both directions for 18 miles and reconstructing the whole freeway and replacing all the bridges. Not to mention all the land you have to acquire for the extra lanes. That can't be cheap in Oakland County.

Do the I-75 bidges need to be replaced? Often interstates have future expansion built into them by installing wider bridges during initial construction.

**RO_Resident** · June-23-13, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

OK, here's some data to start with, then let's see where the facts take us. By my calculations there are 395 lane-miles of expressway in the City proper. [[I know how many lanes each segment of freeway is, with a few short exceptions, and it's easy to measure the distances.) If I'm wrong, and someone has a precise number, let me know.

The census bureau estimates the 2012 population at 701,475. So based on that, Detroit has 56.31 lane-miles of expressway per 100K population. [[And that's before any further expansion.)

If you can find a major city that beats that, let me know. "Major city" is to avoid situations like Pleasant Ridge. Let's say anything over 250K population counts for this purpose. I'd be happy to be wrong here, but doubt that I am.

I'm curious what the source of your data is. By my estimate, there are just over 550 lane miles of freeway in the city. That includes mainline interstates, freeways, connectors, and ramps. It does not include service drives. [[Michigan has pretty fine-grained data for roads that are eligible for federal aid. It is all linked to the Michigan Geographic Framework, so you can pull things out by community.)

When you use national datasets, like HPMS, you run into sampling issues. It is very easy to pull out data by MSA; but much harder to pull data out by community/FIPS/MCD, or whatever your smallest geography is.

You could buy data from TeleAtlas, etc., but they charge an arm and a leg.