Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[Honky Tonk]

With dollars he got from the public teet.

Thank you for that, sir, and my point exactly. Illitch hasn't done a damn thing unless it somehow benefits Illitch. His methods are always questionable. And please folks, spare me the "trillions of jobs his stadium will create" fantasy island scenario.

[Novine]

Great stuff Gistok. It should be required reading for every writer in the Metro Detroit area so they can separate the myth from reality when writing about Ilitch and his businesses.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the kind words Novine.

One other point is that I'm not averse to the Ilitch's using public money for the arena development. But I am adverse to having that money poorly spent. Such as by razing buildings whose value as residential housing and historic tax credits will be lost, and whose penalties for razing historic structures will be absorbed for Ilitch thru the public largesse.

For those of you on this forum too young to remember the Comerica Park land clearance, the county Stadium Development Authority that cleared the east Foxtown land for Ilitch cleared it with a vengeance. It was of course their mandate.

The century old English Tudor style Women's Exchange Building [[Chelios Chili) on GCP went thru a nasty court fight because the county [[Ilitch by proxy) wanted it for a decorative sidewalk for Comerica Park! Mercifully the building owners perservered, but at great cost. For many years the Ilitch's revenge was shown by refusing to hear any other developers ideas for the building, which would have required some of the nearby Ilitch parking space monopoly. Finally it took Ilitch employee Detroit Red Wing Chris Chelios coming to the table as a restauranteur to get a sympathetic ear.

The most appalling unnecessary loss in the stadium area however went down without fanfare. That was the 16 story Wolverine Hotel at Elizabeth & Witherell...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Wolv...h=679#imgdii=_

Why did this perfectly restorable tall building go down? Not because it was needed for any stadium use, besides 36 parking spaces. It just spoiled the view of Woodward from Comerica Park!!

Ah but it gets worse... when you look at a map of Comerica Park, the large lot behind St. John Church includes 120 parking spaces provided by the demolition of the beautiful 11 story Detroit YWCA, which again, like the Wolverine Hotel, could have made nice residential units downtown...

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-...d=0CNIBEPwSMA8

So more than likely, the Eddystone and Harbor Lights high rise hotels in the Arena footprint will likely be the same sacrificial lambs as the Wolverine Hotel and YWCA. Restorable, yes! But of more interest to the Ilitch's as parking spots.

So when the DEGC or whatever authority does its' due diligence on the arena district... one would have hoped that "rip it all down" wasn't AGAIN going to be the order of the day. But I wouldn't bet on it...

[mikeg19]

Thanks for the kind words Novine.

One other point is that I'm not averse to the Ilitch's using public money for the arena development. But I am adverse to having that money poorly spent. Such as by razing buildings whose value as residential housing and historic tax credits will be lost, and whose penalties for razing historic structures will be absorbed for Ilitch thru the public largesse.

For those of you on this forum too young to remember the Comerica Park land clearance, the county Stadium Development Authority that cleared the east Foxtown land for Ilitch cleared it with a vengeance. It was of course their mandate.

The century old English Tudor style Women's Exchange Building [[Chelios Chili) on GCP went thru a nasty court fight because the county [[Ilitch by proxy) wanted it for a decorative sidewalk for Comerica Park! Mercifully the building owners perservered, but at great cost. For many years the Ilitch's revenge was shown by refusing to hear any other developers ideas for the building, which would have required some of the nearby Ilitch parking space monopoly. Finally it took Chris Chelios coming to the table as a restauranteur to get a sympathetic ear.

The most appalling unnecessary loss in the stadium area however went down without fanfare. That was the 16 story Wolverine Hotel at Elizabeth & Witherell...

Why did this perfectly restorable tall building go down? Not because it was needed for any stadium use, besides 50 parking spaces. It just spoiled the view of Woodward from Comerica Park!!

So when the DEGC or whatever authority does its' due diligence on the arena district... one would hope that more than "rip it all down" is the order of the day. But I wouldn't bet on it...

Gistock,

I always look forward to your posts, as they are well thought out and conveyed in a manner that even the most lay of sorts can understand.

Unfortunately I believe your cries, as well as others, to preserve historically significant structures in the path of the arena development stand little hope of surviving the wrecking ball. I'm thrilled with the development because A) I'm a hockey fan and have longed for a new arena and B) I'm really hoping [[and thinking) that this is Detroit's last chance with a large scale stadium development of this magnitude, and they need to get it right. There will be no more stadiums built here for conceivably 40-50 years. And after the disasters we call Comerica & Ford Field have completely failed to integrate a stadium into an urban environment, I truely feel like if the city doesn't get the new hockey arena/district correct, they are simply utter failures.

[bailey]

Gistock,

I always look forward to your posts, as they are well thought out and conveyed in a manner that even the most lay of sorts can understand.

Unfortunately I believe your cries, as well as others, to preserve historically significant structures in the path of the arena development stand little hope of surviving the wrecking ball. I'm thrilled with the development because A) I'm a hockey fan and have longed for a new arena and B) I'm really hoping [[and thinking) that this is Detroit's last chance with a large scale stadium development of this magnitude, and they need to get it right. There will be no more stadiums built here for conceivably 40-50 years. And after the disasters we call Comerica & Ford Field have completely failed to integrate a stadium into an urban environment, I truely feel like if the city doesn't get the new hockey arena/district correct, they are simply utter failures.

You're "thrilled" with the development, yet its the same people that brought us the "disasters" we call CoPA and FF?

I agree it's Detroit's last chance for major development for at least a generation or two. I'm just resigned to the probability it will, in the end, be a total waste of a spectacular opportunity to do something really transformational.

[downtownguy]

I wouldn't really say there's a whole lot of "rah-rah'ing" being done. More like relief and anxiousness about something FINALLY getting started after like ten years of rumor and poorly kept secrets. Finally we know where this thing is going to be and maybe the rest of these properties can begin to have some kind of future. That's a little bit exciting, right?....

And of course the former Madison-Lenox. Because all the CoPa needed to be complete was 50 more parking spots.

Read Gistok's summary of the Madison-Lenox fiasco and maybe you'll understand why some of us don't share your relief.

[Gistok]

Thanks for everyone's feedback... while you were all posting, I updated my original comments to also include the YWCA in the Comerica park footprint. I had forgotten that it too was replace by another 120 surface parking spaces. So the Wolverine Hotel and YWCA were the sacrificial lambs of the Comerica Park development, just as the Eddystone and Harbor Lights will likely be for the Arena development.

When you talk "urban density"... it's hard to fathom any urbanity was involved in regards to removing these earlier razed structures. I wouldn't put too much hope on the "urban lite" that will come out of an Arena district development.

I hope that new architects that come in to work on the arena district are prepared to be disappointed. They'll have a suburban budget for an urban project. I don't care if you ressurect McKim Mead & White... you're not going to get urban density on a shoestring budget.

Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong. But the saying goes "Fool me once shame on you..." ... well we're now down to awaiting the outcome of the 4th verse...

[LeannaM]

It makes me sad to hear of historic buildings being torn down for new developments. Sometimes it's for the best, but it can also be really unnecessary.

I hope everything works out with this new arena. In St. Louis it took 6-7 years for "Ballpark Village" to even break ground, and it's scaled back compared to what it would have been. So developers' promises don't always materialize very quickly, if at all.

Tearing down buildings for parking almost never makes sense to me, especially in cities that have plenty of parking.

[Khorasaurus]

Thanks for everyone's feedback... while you were all posting, I updated my original comments to also include the YWCA in the Comerica park footprint. I had forgotten that it too was replace by another 120 surface parking spaces. So the Wolverine Hotel and YWCA were the sacrificial lambs of the Comerica Park development, just as the Eddystone and Harbor Lights will likely be for the Arena development.

When you talk "urban density"... it's hard to fathom any urbanity was involved in regards to removing these earlier razed structures. I wouldn't put too much hope on the "urban lite" that will come out of an Arena district development.

Where was the YWCA? Was it the northeast corner of Adams and Witherell? Because that site is within Comerica Park itself, not a parking lot. Or was it somewhere west of Witherell, in the current parking lots?

Regardless, your larger point still stands, and I agree that the arena and its parking lots and entrance plazas will take up the entire Temple/Woodward/Clifford-Cass/I-75 block.

[downtownguy]

Where was the YWCA? Was it the northeast corner of Adams and Witherell? Because that site is within Comerica Park itself, not a parking lot.

That was the YMCA. YWCA was a couple of blocks north.

[Chinman]

The YWCA was on the northeast corner of Brush & MontCalm. Shot scenes for a movie there in 1994. It was used at the time for a storage place for the owner who at this point I forget his name. Floors of 60's, 70's and even older furniture and mechanical memorabilia.

[CrashDummy]

Read Gistok's summary of the Madison-Lenox fiasco and maybe you'll understand why some of us don't share your relief.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Madison-Lenox story. Everybody is, that's why I didn't bother elaborating on that. In retrospect, it was clearly a mistake. There are not many who would argue to the contrary, except maybe the folks who own the Ashley [[Milner). A little value added by actually being able to see something out your back window besides a ruin 10 feet away.
Market conditions have changed dramatically since then, we don't have hotels closing and half filled brand new lofts along Woodward anymore. My hope is that the value of the remaining buildings is recognized by the parties involved, and they might actually be given new life. But, I really have no idea. There are few who do at this point.

[mikeg19]

You're "thrilled" with the development, yet its the same people that brought us the "disasters" we call CoPA and FF?

I agree it's Detroit's last chance for major development for at least a generation or two. I'm just resigned to the probability it will, in the end, be a total waste of a spectacular opportunity to do something really transformational.

Yes, I am thrilled with the development of a new hockey arena by two illustrious architectural firms, the development of several gravel parking lots into usable space, and the possibility that several buildings are potentially going to be redeveloped.

Do I lament the fact that the Harbor Light and Eddystone are likely going to meet their doom? Yes, very much so.

I'm not going to pan a design that doesn't even exist yet.

[jt1]

mikeg - Do you also expect Lucy to allow Charlie Brown to kick the football even though she has pulled it out from under him every time?

[bailey]

Bailey, I agree with your assessment... but we should give Ford Field some credit in how they incorporated the Hudson's Warehouse space into their new construction. They could have just razed the entire structure and started from scratch.

yup agreed. however, the comment was more toward the claimed entertainment/vibrant district that was to follow. IF not for Ford being able to demand Bodman remove themselves from GMs building.... i wonder if ANY tenant would have filled the space.

Perhaps now with Gilbert getting ready to revamp the fail jail site and court complex... things might actually resemble an actual city there.

[Gistok]

The YWCA was on the northeast corner of Brush & MontCalm. Shot scenes for a movie there in 1994. It was used at the time for a storage place for the owner who at this point I forget his name. Floors of 60's, 70's and even older furniture and mechanical memorabilia.

That would be Chuck Forbes, who owned many of the buildings in the area, including the Wolverine Hotel, which was mothballed. Forbes was not a deep pocketed man, but was smart enough to buy so much of the north end of downtown Detroit at very cheap prices in the 1970s and 1980s.

Mr. Forbes was paid $14 million for his properties by the Stadium Authority. I'm not going to speculate on whether or not that was just compensation for these properties... however it did afford Mr. Forbes a cash flow to fix up some of his other properties.

The Elwood and Gem Theatre was at this time alread restored... the Century not so. Mr. Forbes went back to court and won out on getting the 2 buildings [[Gem/Century and Elwood) moved [[not sure of specifics on this). The DEGC head at the time, Beth Duncombe, proposed the site for a move... the city owned parcel where the 2 buildings are today north of Madison Ave.

IMHO... this was one of the most satisfying deals ever by the DEGC. Chuck Forbes had the cash in hand now to restore [[at the newly moved location) the Century portion of the Gem/Century [[as well as other buildings), and many of the interior as well as exterior elements of the YWCA [[including Pewabic tiles from the swimming pool) were salvaged and installed at the Gem/Century. The courtyard balustrade out front was also salvaged from the YWCA.

Also, Mr. Forbes had stored a lot furnishings from other buildings at the YWCA, including the 700 main floor seats from the State [[Fillmore) Theatre, items from J. L. Hudson's downtown, items from the demolished Ambassador Theatre in St. Louis, as well as architectural fixtures and furnishings... many of which can now be seen today reinstalled inside the State Bar in the Francis Palms Buildinhg.

[Gistok]

Mr. Forbes is now in his 80s, and has handed much of the day to day operations of his buildings downtown to his son Jim Forbes. Semi-retired, Mr. Forbes, who still goes into his office up in the Francis Palms Building periodically, is in many ways Detroit's patron saint of historic preservation and adaptive reuse. It is to his credit that so many buildings in the north end of downtown are in as good a condition as they are today.

We also owe Mr. Forbes the gratitude of saving the Manning Brothers Photography Collection, arguably the most important source of downtown Detroit historic photography.

For Detroit, it's a tragic shame that so much of what Mr. Forbes "does right"...
Mr. Ilitch "does wrong"...

[jt1]

Fixed it for you:

For Detroit, it's a tragic shame that so much of what Mr. Forbes "does right"...
Mr. Ilitch "does wrong"...and gets credit for it.

[downtownguy]

The Elwood and Gem Theatre was at this time alread restored... the Century not so. Mr. Forbes went back to court and won out on getting the 2 buildings [[Gem/Century and Elwood) moved [[not sure of specifics on this).

Not exactly. As Jim Forbes told me the story, they did not get funds to move the Elwood, so reluctantly they decided to let it go and put all their efforts into the Gem. After the last day of business, they held a party at the Elwood for their staff. At the end of the night -- and several drinks later -- Jim and Chuck were locking the doors. They decided at that moment that they just couldn't do it. Next day they called the company that would move the Gem and inquired about a "two-fer." Soon after they negotiated a deal satisfactory enough to move them both.

[Gistok]

Not exactly. As Jim Forbes told me the story, they did not get funds to move the Elwood, so reluctantly they decided to let it go and put all their efforts into the Gem. After the last day of business, they held a party at the Elwood for their staff. At the end of the night -- and several drinks later -- Jim and Chuck were locking the doors. They decided at that moment that they just couldn't do it. Next day they called the company that would move the Gem and inquired about a "two-fer." Soon after they negotiated a deal satisfactory enough to move them both.

Thanks... I didn't know the specifics of that or the court case.

[Gistok]

Fixed it for you:

For Detroit, it's a tragic shame that so much of what Mr. Forbes "does right"...
Mr. Ilitch "does wrong"...and gets credit for it.

Well done....

[Gistok]

yup agreed. however, the comment was more toward the claimed entertainment/vibrant district that was to follow. IF not for Ford being able to demand Bodman remove themselves from GMs building.... i wonder if ANY tenant would have filled the space.

Perhaps now with Gilbert getting ready to revamp the fail jail site and court complex... things might actually resemble an actual city there.

Thanks Bailey... I reread your comments, and you were just rephrasing Mikeg19's comments... gotcha!

I do think that Ford Field did a good job of trying [[which got national attention).... just it wasn't quite enough by its' self....

Being surrounded by 2 freeways and an interchange certainly didn't help....

[bailey]

Thanks Bailey... I reread your comments, and you were just rephrasing Mikeg19's comments... gotcha!

I do think that Ford Field did a good job of trying [[which got national attention).... just it wasn't quite enough by its' self....

Being surrounded by 2 freeways and an interchange certainly didn't help....

Yup. I will also never understand the thought behind that stupid PWC building sort of thrown in there. IIRC, the empty FF office space could have accommodated them. Instead someone builds a suburban sprawl office park in what has got to be the most inhospitable and isolated location in the CBD. Just rip it down now before it sits empty for 35 years..


Just tripped over this little gem from 2004

The Detroit Lions, in conjunction with a local developer, plan to annouce a $40 million office and retail complex adjacent to Ford Field in an area just southwest of the stadium in what is now a surface parking lot.

The complex is expected to house retail shops, office space and a 1,000 space parking deck. In addition, the team is expected to announce that they will host a small upscale boutique hotel within what was once the old Hudsons warehouse area of the Ford Field property.


The hotel is expected to house approximately 100 rooms and cater to guests visiting the area. Detroit hopes to have both properties completed in time for the Super Bowl at Ford Field in 2006


The office/retail complex already has its first tenents - 400 workers from the accounting firm of Price, Waterhouse, Cooper - signed to occupy the building which will be located in what is now a parking lot on Ford Field property at the intersection of I-375 and Madison.


Tom Lewand, executive vice president and C.O.O. of the Detroit Lions said the development adds to the "critical mass" of the district which encompasses theatres, hotels, an athletic club and several concert halls.


The project was first rumored to be in the offing in a copyrighted story that appeared in the Detroit Free Press in February 2004. That story cited reports that a House of Blues restaurant/concert hall and a Ruth's Chris Steak House could eventually become part of the complex.


While those are still possibilities, nothing has been confirmed at this time except that the Lions were negotiating with those firms.

Jesus fucking Christ what joke. Someone follow Mike's advice and timecapsule all the bullshit Olympia is shoveling about what Little Caesar's Land is going include.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Has anyone put together a "score card" of sorts of how Olympia/Ilitch-owned properties have done?

I know they've [[re)done Fox and Hockeytown, which are good, and Comerica Park and Motor City Casino which are bad but at least there, but what about the rest of his properties?

It'd be cool to see a list of what he has giveth us and what he's taketh away.

[stinkytofu]

Jesus fucking Christ what joke. Someone follow Mike's advice and timecapsule all the bullshit Olympia is shoveling about what Little Caesar's Land is going include.

Yep. To anyone with half a brain this is proceeding exactly as expected. This is basically going to be a giant public subsidy for the Ilitch's with very little nearby guaranteed development.