Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[Khorasaurus]

This is really splitting hairs. McCormick Place and Soldier Field are certainly in the heart of Chicago, as is the United Center and both baseball stadiums. They are in urban places that are both positively and negatively impacted by having them there. So they can be used as comparisons to Detroit's sports and conventions facilities.

The new Wings arena won't technically be in downtown Detroit either, since it will be north of I-75. And some could argue that JLA wasn't "downtown" by the strict standard that you guys are applying either.

[Brian1979]

Chicago has no sports arenas downtown.

Solidier Field is well south of Roosevelt Rd. No one considers south of Roosevelt Rd. to be "downtown Chicago". And it's isolated from the city proper by a freeway and parkland.

And United Center is even further from downtown. It's on the West Side of Chicago, a long way from the Loop and the Near North Side tourist/business hub.

Really the most "downtown" stadium in Chicago would be Wrigley, even though it's geographically far from the traditional city heart. It's the most urban venue, by far.

I don't consider anything south of Congress to be part of downtown really. The elevated tracks turn a block north on Van Buren Street so it's not within that area. The United Center and Comiskey Park are probably the most removed from downtown. Wrigley is just in a vibrant urban neighborhood it's nowheres near downtown.

I consider the South Loop to be just that, the South Loop. Just like the West Loop where Union and Northwestern stations are aren't part of downtown either. Even though there are tall buildings there the River North area really isn't a part of downtown either. Downtown to Chicagoians is the Loop.

[Bham1982]

I don't consider anything south of Congress to be part of downtown really. The elevated tracks turn a block north on Van Buren Street so it's not within that area. The United Center and Comiskey Park are probably the most removed from downtown. Wrigley is just in a vibrant urban neighborhood it's nowheres near downtown.

I consider the South Loop to be just that, the South Loop. Just like the West Loop where Union and Northwestern stations are aren't part of downtown either. Even though there are tall buildings there the River North area really isn't a part of downtown either. Downtown to Chicagoians is the Loop.

I would agree with this, though I would probably add the Near North Side [[Michigan Ave./Streeterville/River North; basically everything south of Division) to the "downtown" designation. I agree it's debatable.

And, yeah, south of Congress has a totally different feel, and south of Roosevelt is just ridiculous, IMO.

[Bham1982]

This is really splitting hairs.

There's no splitting hairs. There is absolutely nothing surrounding either the United Center or Soldier Field. You can't walk to the United Center from any downtown hotel, or downtown resturant. There's no spin-off development from either, and not much potential for future spin-off from either.

United Center is basically like the old Olympia Stadium in its later days; an urban location, but not downtown, and decimated by parking lots. The surrounding area isn't really safe, or, at the least, has the perception of not being very safe. I don't think Mary from Wisconsin is going to be strolling through the West Side around the United Center.

[Brian1979]

This is really splitting hairs. McCormick Place and Soldier Field are certainly in the heart of Chicago, as is the United Center and both baseball stadiums. They are in urban places that are both positively and negatively impacted by having them there. So they can be used as comparisons to Detroit's sports and conventions facilities.

The new Wings arena won't technically in downtown Detroit either, since it will be north of I-75. And some could argue that JLA wasn't "downtown" by the strict standard that you guys are applying either.

Not really. McCormick Place is on the lakefront on the Southside and is removed from a lot of things. There is no L stop anywheres near McCormick Place, the closest is the Cermak-Chinatown station on the Red Line which is currently closed due to the Red Line reconstruction and that's nearly a mile walk. The United Center and Comiskey both sit by themselves pretty much in an area much like the area where the Red Wings new arena is being built, both are surrounded by surface parking lots.

Bham is right by saying that Wrigley is the most urban sports venue in Chicago, the area has bars around it for blocks and is in a very vibrant neighborhood and to top if off parking is a nightmare in Wrigleyville, a problem Detroit does not have.

Another thing is Chicago didn't depend on sporting venues to save the city. They built the sporting venues far enough away from the CBD that they don't interfere with the CBD.

I would say JLA is on the very fringes of being downtown but it's very removed from downtown due to Cobo Hall and the Lodge blocking it from the rest of downtown.

I'm against sporting venues being built in downtowns.

[Novine]

"They are in urban places that are both positively and negatively impacted by having them there. So they can be used as comparisons to Detroit's sports and conventions facilities."

Except Chicago isn't using up half of its core downtown area with sports and convention facilities. That's the point.

[Khorasaurus]

There's no splitting hairs. There is absolutely nothing surrounding either the United Center or Soldier Field. You can't walk to the United Center from any downtown hotel, or downtown resturant.

United Center is basically like the old Olympia Stadium in its later days; an urban location, but not downtown, and decimated by parking lots.

So what you're saying is that new Wings arena should definitely not be like the United Center. I agree.

[Khorasaurus]

"They are in urban places that are both positively and negatively impacted by having them there. So they can be used as comparisons to Detroit's sports and conventions facilities."

Except Chicago isn't using up half of its core downtown area with sports and convention facilities. That's the point.

Neither is Detroit...

It's not like there isn't going to be space for everything else we want in the 7.2 square miles just because there's going to be a new arena for the Wings and probably an expanded Cobo.

[Brian1979]

I would agree with this, though I would probably add the Near North Side [[Michigan Ave./Streeterville/River North; basically everything south of Division) to the "downtown" designation. I agree it's debatable.

And, yeah, south of Congress has a totally different feel, and south of Roosevelt is just ridiculous, IMO.

It has a downtown feel to it for sure. Michigan Avenue is pretty dense with the Mag Mile and everything, the buildings that front the river, north of it are pretty dense as well. Division Street would probably be the border if you were including River North, actually the border is Chicago Avenue but Division is still in a vibrant area. You could also look at the Near North Side area that extends all the way to North Avenue but it also includes Goose Island which is certainly not a part of downtown.

The area right around Congress is fine but even one block past that at Harrison it's totally a different feel. I don't think of Printer's Row being downtown either and that's between Harrison and Dearborn Station.

And yes indeed anything south of Roosevelt is ridiculous, let's just include 95th and State as being downtown too.

[Brian1979]

"They are in urban places that are both positively and negatively impacted by having them there. So they can be used as comparisons to Detroit's sports and conventions facilities."

Except Chicago isn't using up half of its core downtown area with sports and convention facilities. That's the point.

Exactly this.

[Brian1979]

As I said earlier, they should have revisited the old Tiger Stadium site for the new Red Wings arena.

Does anyone seriously want a windowless sports arena on Woodward? Or would you rather have residential high rises and a downtown type shopping district with restaurants and shops all along Woodward?

The Tiger Stadium site is big enough and wouldn't require tearing anything down even though the two buildings Ilitch wants to demolish I'm not against, they are complete eyesores that are painful to look at.

[Brian1979]

And I forgot to mention that McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. And the location is fine, it's well away from the center of downtown. I was never a fan of where Cobo is located but it was difficult to figure out where they could have built Cobo.

[Khorasaurus]

Why is it better for a stadium/convention center/arena to be in a neighborhood that is urban but isn't "downtown"?

In my personal opinion, the negative impacts of a facility like that are lessened and the positive impacts heightened in a central business district environment rather than in a place like, for instance, Corktown. Or, for Chicago examples, the neighborhoods around the United Center or the White Sox stadium.

Thinking about it, the best alternative for a stadium may be where Solider Field is. It's near the core, but in a park setting where the parking lots are not in place of dense, urban buildings, and there aren't any worries about blank walls. But unless we build all our stadiums on Belle Isle, Detroit doesn't really have that option.

[Khorasaurus]

As I said earlier, they should have revisited the old Tiger Stadium site for the new Red Wings arena.

Does anyone seriously want a windowless sports arena on Woodward? Or would you rather have residential high rises and a downtown type shopping district with restaurants and shops all along Woodward?

How do we know the arena is going to have a blank wall on Woodward? The frontage could conceivably be mixed-use buildings with the arena sitting behind them. Granted, that's unlikely, given that Ilitch is building it, but I could see storefronts [[or something approximating storefronts, like the box office) along the Woodward frontage, or at very least an attractive, transparent glass front.

And I'm not sure why a blank wall on Michigan Avenue would be that much preferable to a blank wall on Woodward, although as I said, it doesn't have to be a blank wall.

[ghettopalmetto]

How do we know the arena is going to have a blank wall on Woodward? The frontage could conceivably be mixed-use buildings with the arena sitting behind them. Granted, that's unlikely, given that Ilitch is building it, but I could see storefronts [[or something approximating storefronts, like the box office) along the Woodward frontage, or at very least an attractive, transparent glass front.

And I'm not sure why a blank wall on Michigan Avenue would be that much preferable to a blank wall on Woodward, although as I said, it doesn't have to be a blank wall.

This is Mike Ilitch we're talking about. Do you think he's going to sign off on anything that will let your precious dollars escape his grasp? This is the guy who once promised that Comerica Park would be surrounded by shops and restaurants, before he encircled it with parking.

[Bham1982]

Why is it better for a stadium/convention center/arena to be in a neighborhood that is urban but isn't "downtown"?

Generally speaking, arenas are wastes of space. They aren't being used all that much relative to other uses. So you generally won't see them on extreme high value land. If, for example, a plot of land could accomodate office buildings, or apartment towers, or hotels, or other 24/7 uses, you don't want to have an arena squatting on all that space, because it will be dead space most of the time.

The one exception I can think of is Madison Square Garden, but they've been trying for years to get them to move, and it may finally be happening. They just were informed that their lease ends in 10 years, at the very latest. They actually were set to move from the current MSG site five years ago, but the recession killed that plan.

[Khorasaurus]

This is Mike Ilitch we're talking about. Do you think he's going to sign off on anything that will let your precious dollars escape his grasp? This is the guy who once promised that Comerica Park would be surrounded by shops and restaurants, before he encircled it with parking.

Comerica, while not perfect, doesn't have many "blank walls."

I'm skeptical of Ilitch, too, but he's not the architect, and the architect that was hired has done some pretty good work.

I'm much more worried that he'll replicate what he did with Comerica and put the arena west of Park, then put parking along Woodward.

[Brian1979]

Because downtown is the Central Business District, not the entertainment district.

When you go to an event at the United Center or Comiskey Park you are going to the game. Mass transit is able to take you to both, you can take the #20 bus to the United Center, the Green, Pink and Blue Lines on the L are also nearby. As for Comiskey there are two L lines plus Pace and CTA buses that go near there. So really there isn't a need to have the stadiums downtown.

Chicago's downtown doesn't really have a need to have an urban renewal project going on. And in order to get to Soldier Field from the west of it which is really the only direction you can approach it from since the lake is there is by crossing a series of train tracks and Lakeshore Drive. Plus the stadium is pretty ugly looking.

[ghettopalmetto]

Comerica, while not perfect, doesn't have many "blank walls."

I'm skeptical of Ilitch, too, but he's not the architect, and the architect that was hired has done some pretty good work.

I'm much more worried that he'll replicate what he did with Comerica and put the arena west of Park, then put parking along Woodward.

Speaking from experience, the Architect can only design what the Owner approves and is willing to pay for.

You could have Renzo Piano design the arena, but if Mike Ilitch is only willing to pay for a pole barn, you're going to get a pole barn.

[Brian1979]

How do we know the arena is going to have a blank wall on Woodward? The frontage could conceivably be mixed-use buildings with the arena sitting behind them. Granted, that's unlikely, given that Ilitch is building it, but I could see storefronts [[or something approximating storefronts, like the box office) along the Woodward frontage, or at very least an attractive, transparent glass front.

And I'm not sure why a blank wall on Michigan Avenue would be that much preferable to a blank wall on Woodward, although as I said, it doesn't have to be a blank wall.

Because that's the way stadium's are built. There aren't any windows to look out of the United Center really, same with JLA and the old Olympia. I don't think I would want the arena fronting Woodward.

With Ilitch building it I doubt all this gets done, I imagine he'll build the arena and maybe a few buildings around the arena but most of it will look like it does now, gravel parking lots which is the worst case for a downtown. Mikey did an excellent job of destroying the core of Detroit.

A blank wall on Michigan did well for 88 years or however long the Tigers played there, it'd be removed a little from downtown which would be fine. I don't see many other cities tearing up their downtown to build sports venues.

[Brian1979]

This is Mike Ilitch we're talking about. Do you think he's going to sign off on anything that will let your precious dollars escape his grasp? This is the guy who once promised that Comerica Park would be surrounded by shops and restaurants, before he encircled it with parking.

I couldn't agree more.

[Brian1979]

Generally speaking, arenas are wastes of space. They aren't being used all that much relative to other uses. So you generally won't see them on extreme high value land. If, for example, a plot of land could accomodate office buildings, or apartment towers, or hotels, or other 24/7 uses, you don't want to have an arena squatting on all that space, because it will be dead space most of the time.

The one exception I can think of is Madison Square Garden, but they've been trying for years to get them to move, and it may finally be happening. They just were informed that their lease ends in 10 years, at the very latest. They actually were set to move from the current MSG site five years ago, but the recession killed that plan.

Agreed with the part about arenas. But I thought MSG just went through a complete renovation. I would much rather have something that is going to be vibrant 24 hours a day than a sports arena. As you said it's dead most of the year especially in the offseason.

[Khorasaurus]

Generally speaking, arenas are wastes of space. They aren't being used all that much relative to other uses. So you generally won't see them on extreme high value land. If, for example, a plot of land could accomodate office buildings, or apartment towers, or hotels, or other 24/7 uses, you don't want to have an arena squatting on all that space, because it will be dead space most of the time.

That's a reasonable point, but that doesn't answer why an arena in an outlying neighborhood [[like Chicago and New York have) would be preferable to a downtown location. Although I suppose you favor suburban locations, and we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

Do you feel the same way about theaters? They're dead most of the time, too. But they are almost always in or near the downtown.

I think the intense activity that happens when these facilities do have events trumps the dead times. Now, we don't want to have our downtown reliant on them for activity, which is why they aren't a "silver bullet" and 24/7 uses like you describe are extremely important.

But I don't think, as I've said before, that a new arena is in any way an impediment to getting those 24/7 uses. Just look at how many buildings have been renovated for apartments or offices in the Grand Circus area since the stadiums were built -Fyfe, Kales, Broderick, Whitney, M@dison, etc.

And, yes, we lost some buildings as well, but I don't think that's inherent to areas around stadiums/arenas. That's a Mike Ilitch problem. Which brings us to an area of agreement - Mike Ilitch doesn't understand good urbanism and may really screw up the design of this new arena.

[Brian1979]

Name me one other city in America other than Philly that has their sports venues all cramped into one area. I'll exclude the Pistons since they don't even play in Detroit.

Maybe Cleveland? But it's about a mile or so from the Gateway Complex to the Browns Stadium.

Minneapolis has a pretty nice downtown area, the only team they are missing is the Wild who play in downtown St. Paul.

[gnome]

Cinci, Pittsburgh,