Benny Napoleon: "I think they should take the DIA first"

[poobert]

The answer is just as interesting. I want to think that the metropolitan area would be deemed heirs to the collection. It all points in the direction of a shared inheritance. When the car manufacturing spilled into the outlying suburbs, the wealth of the city transformed itself into a metro wealth. The DIA's address didnt change. Bummer.

I think the builders of what was once a great metropolis would be nearly equally disappointed in its suburbs and what this region has mutated into. I seriously doubt the buildings of the great edifices downtown would want the DIA to be at Great Lakes Crossing.

[canuck]

I think the builders of what was once a great metropolis would be nearly equally disappointed in its suburbs and what this region has mutated into. I seriously doubt the buildings of the great edifices downtown would want the DIA to be at Great Lakes Crossing.

Yes, it is strange how fast certain things become impermanent over time. We tend to forget how ten year old highrises in the twenties were demolished to make way for thirty story skyscrapers.

Now that sprawl has set in, disconnectedness and detachment from a certain ideal urbanity, we witness the effects on our cities. The sameness is so dispiriting because it just is the result of accounting practices that eliminate the need for public good.

[compn]

benny napoleon is that guy who has his head up his ass about the marijuana vote detroit had to decrim posession.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._napoleon.html

benny napoleon, he'll go against the voters every time.
benny napoleon, spending police resources arresting people for pot instead of theives, murderers, arsons and rapists.

what is it? a daily/weekly occurance of someone getting beat up and robbed at a gas station in detroit now? benny hasnt made anyone safer.

his idea is to sell off the DIA? that shows his ignorance of laws and how to run a city. of course, detroit voted in kwame [[over fmr police cheif gil hill) so i cant tell whos gonna win this one.

[compn]

I seriously doubt the buildings of the great edifices downtown would want the DIA to be at Great Lakes Crossing.

you mean Great Lakes Crossing Outlets! [[the mall renamed in 2010) haha, maybe they can make a DIA outlet store. buy reduced priced artwork and paintings with gum stuck to it.

Only for the sake of discussion[[I'm not in favor of the selloff), but doesn't that raise a question about whether a city [[reportedly) still shedding population, and one that will be well under 700k in the very near future, needs, wants, or deserves a 2 billion dollar art collection

the dia is for the region [[yes, including canadians). it also brings in tourism. detroit itself may have lost residents, but 'detroit metro area' is still fairly large.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Michigan

With 4,488,335 people, Metro Detroit is the tenth largest metropolitan area in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit
Population [[2010) • Urban 3,734,090 [[11th)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas

or were you talking about moving the DIA collection to another location outside of detroit but still in michigan?

[Danny]

Napoleon doesn't care about Romanesque art! That's comment is a typical RACE CARD! I will not vote for someone who disapproves historical and cultural art.

[rex]

In a sense, Napoleon is correct.

You can't ask regular Detroiters to take massive sacrifices while ignoring certain available assets, IMO.

No - In a sense, Napoleon is a shitstick. Too bad they cant transfer ownership of the museum and contents therein to an alternate municipality. Detroit zoo is in Royal Oak. Make it the Royal Oak Institute of Arts in Detroit. Oh and BTW Royal Oak doesn't owe Detroit's creditors shit.

[nain rouge]

With 4,488,335 people, Metro Detroit is the tenth largest metropolitan area in the United Stateshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit
Population [[2010) • Urban 3,734,090 [[11th)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas

That information is out of date. Any list you would compile today [[whether it's the CSA, MSA, or whatever) would show that Detroit has firmly fallen out of the top 10. We're a region on a slow decline, the sheer inertia of Detroit's once greatness the only force keeping us from free falling. Which, if you ask me, is why the DIA and other such issues are all the more urgent. If we don't fix these problems now, when will we have the money to again?

[Cliffy]

No - In a sense, Napoleon is a shitstick. Too bad they cant transfer ownership of the museum and contents therein to an alternate municipality. Detroit zoo is in Royal Oak. Make it the Royal Oak Institute of Arts in Detroit. Oh and BTW Royal Oak doesn't owe Detroit's creditors shit.

Napoleon is another race baiting joke. The only reason he's running is for a third pension. He got his Detroit police pension, his wayne county pension, now he wants a city of Detroit pension. He better sell all the "white mans" art so he can get his mayoral pension. Of course the voting base will vote for him because he's black.

[rb336]

That information is out of date. Any list you would compile today [[whether it's the CSA, MSA, or whatever) would show that Detroit has firmly fallen out of the top 10.

The thing is, what constitutes a metropolitan statistical area is very fluid. Chicago extends into Wisconsin, Boston extends into Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Philadelphia extends to New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland.

If you take the 2010/11 numbers, which have the Detroit/Warren/Flint area at 5,410,014, and add in similar areas that were included in those other metros [[Toledo, Windsor/Essex, Monroe County and Washtenaw County) the comparable figure is 7,254,786 would put us at #6 behind Boston, Washington, Chicago and Los Angeles and ahead of san Jose/San Fransisco, Philly/Camden, Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, Atlanta and Miami/Ft Lauderdale

If you add Livingston County to the mix, we are about 20K shy of Bahston for #5

[313WX]

MSA/CSA measures are based on commuting patterns.

In Detroit, most people don't commute to downtown Detroit/the city of Detroit for work [[unlike in other regions), but rather Dearborn, Southfield, Auburn Hills, Troy, etc.

Furthermore, people living outside of the US don't count for whatever reasons.

Now if you want to debate whether or not that measure by the Census is flawed, be my guess, but as things stand right now, it is what it is.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The city owns a lot of tangible things: land, buildings, artwork, etc. It owes MUCH more money than it can possibly pay back in cash. So, the city will lose some of those assets, with or without bankruptcy. If the city sells some of it's stuff on it's own, it will have some say in what gets liquidated. If bankruptcy happens, a judge will make those decisions. What Benny Napoleon or anyone else running for office thinks, stupid or not, is pretty irrelevant. Liquidation of assets will begin sooner rather than later. Also, it should be noticed, the city is not legally capable of sheltering assets at this point. Everything it owns would need court or ECM clearance to be sold. The city could have sold DIA and contents outright some time ago to a non-profit, but no longer. That art will be in limbo until sold or the city is out of debt. Shame on all of us for getting into that situation. We willfully elected the people that got Detroit in this situation, and kept reelecting them. Unchallenged, openly corrupt, liberal power for more than half a century makes hard for us to have nice things.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Umm, not every black Detroiter will be falling for Napos mess. Nope~! There are other options.

Napoleon is another race baiting joke. The only reason he's running is for a third pension. He got his Detroit police pension, his wayne county pension, now he wants a city of Detroit pension. He better sell all the "white mans" art so he can get his mayoral pension. Of course the voting base will vote for him because he's black.

[One Shot]

White vs black comment. Period.

[downtownguy]

The DIA is now being used by Benny as for the white guy and we should sell it off and get our money blah blah blah. Detroit may have the dumbest voters in the world if they elect him on this racist crap.

I'm one of those dumb Detroit voters. And, because I'm so dumb, would you kindly restructure your remark about Benny and the white guy into some coherent form that even I can understand?

[downtownguy]

Benny is playing to the Detroit voters, those that actually DO vote. Benny is the one stacking the us vs. them deck. He is doing so by leveraging the DIA against Belle Isle. My 700,000 was misleading, because, of course, no where near that amount of Detroiters ever vote.

Let's not forget the next election is the primary and we have more than two choices to vote for.

[canuck]

I'm one of those dumb Detroit voters. And, because I'm so dumb, would you kindly restructure your remark about Benny and the white guy into some coherent form that even I can understand?

Priceless downtownguy!

[rb336]

MSA/CSA measures are based on commuting patterns.

In Detroit, most people don't commute to downtown Detroit/the city of Detroit for work [[unlike in other regions), but rather Dearborn, Southfield, Auburn Hills, Troy, etc.

Furthermore, people living outside of the US don't count for whatever reasons.

Now if you want to debate whether or not that measure by the Census is flawed, be my guess, but as things stand right now, it is what it is.

Sorry, but the stats for Detroit include Flint, and I know way more people who make the commute from Ann Arbor, Chelsea, Whitmore Lake and Monroe county than make the trip from Flint. I know more people who commute to Detroit from Toledo [[and, for that matter, Lansing) than Flint, and there are a hell of alot of people who work on one side of the border and live on the other. The people who decided the CSA regions have never gone to Brighton during rush hour

[Novine]

"Also, it should be noticed, the city is not legally capable of sheltering assets at this point. Everything it owns would need court or ECM clearance to be sold. The city could have sold DIA and contents outright some time ago to a non-profit, but no longer."

What are you talking about?

[313WX]

Sorry, but the stats for Detroit include Flint, and I know way more people who make the commute from Ann Arbor, Chelsea, Whitmore Lake and Monroe county than make the trip from Flint. I know more people who commute to Detroit from Toledo [[and, for that matter, Lansing) than Flint, and there are a hell of alot of people who work on one side of the border and live on the other. The people who decided the CSA regions have never gone to Brighton during rush hour

Sorry, but just because you know "more people who commute to Detroit from Toledo" and "way more people who make the commute from whatever city" doesn't mean they represent the overall commuting pattern.

I also know tons of Detroiters who commute out of the city to Southfield, Troy, Dearborn and Auburn Hills for work, and in fact before the 2010 Census the city actually LOST daytime population to the suburbs.

As I said, if you think the way the MSAs/CSAs are measured now is flawed, take it up with the Census bureau. It's not the Census' fault that Detroit seems to defy the norm that works just fine elsewhere.

[Cliffy]

I'm one of those dumb Detroit voters. And, because I'm so dumb, would you kindly restructure your remark about Benny and the white guy into some coherent form that even I can understand?

I don't mind helping low information people like yourself.

Vote for Benny because white people are going to sell Belle Isle and keep the DIA art. Of course with the functioning literacy rate at under 50%, its not too easy to fool people in Detroit.

[erikd]

The city owns a lot of tangible things: land, buildings, artwork, etc. It owes MUCH more money than it can possibly pay back in cash. So, the city will lose some of those assets, with or without bankruptcy. If the city sells some of it's stuff on it's own, it will have some say in what gets liquidated. If bankruptcy happens, a judge will make those decisions. What Benny Napoleon or anyone else running for office thinks, stupid or not, is pretty irrelevant. Liquidation of assets will begin sooner rather than later. Also, it should be noticed, the city is not legally capable of sheltering assets at this point. Everything it owns would need court or ECM clearance to be sold. The city could have sold DIA and contents outright some time ago to a non-profit, but no longer. That art will be in limbo until sold or the city is out of debt. Shame on all of us for getting into that situation. We willfully elected the people that got Detroit in this situation, and kept reelecting them. Unchallenged, openly corrupt, liberal power for more than half a century makes hard for us to have nice things.

Chapter 9 is a restructuring bankruptcy, like Chapters 11 and 13. They are very different from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which simply liquidates assets and distributes the proceeds to the debt holders. In a restructuring bankruptcy, the duty of the court is to make sure that the debt holders are fairly compensated WITHOUT hindering the ability of the debtor to generate future income.

In a recent bankruptcy example, GM gave up a number of unproductive land and building holdings that were not being used to generate income, but they were not required to sell the Ren Cen, the Tech Center, or any of their active production plants.

The DIA is a key asset for Detroit, and the loss of the DIA would diminish the city's ability to attract conventions, tourists, residents, and businesses. It is absolutely the type of asset that should not be liquidated in a Chapter 9 restructuring bankruptcy case.

[erikd]

Whether it's the DIA, Belle Isle, pensions, taxes, etc...I would hesitate to get wrapped up in any reaction until a written plan is proposed.

Part of any multi-party real estate transaction or legal settlement negotiation is this process of creating leverage, hitting emotional buttons, etc. etc. etc. It is mind-numbingly exhausting, especially if you are combining high-stakes emotional outcomes with inexperienced negotiators. Prepare for all sorts of emotional bluster [["We'll burn this city down....") during the Tit-for-Tat.

For example, let's consider the very real possibility that Orr is planning on leveraging the philanthropists with the big money with an offer to "buy" the art from the City of Detroit for 10% of market value in exchange for a mutual agreement that it be held in an untouchable public trust and putting their name underneath the painting. [["Van Gogh on Loan from the Corktownyuppie Private Collection") This could result in some up-front capital needed for restructuring if agreed to by all the Creditors.

I was recently involved in a real estate transaction between two non-profit boards and a church congregation. Their lead negotiators would ask us, "Would you be willing to pay $1.5MM with cash in 90 days?" We'd think about it and write up an offer with those terms, and then they'd refuse to sign it, asking for $1.6MM cash in 30 days. After months of frustration with this process, we finally said that we would no longer respond to anything other than a signed, written offer. Anything else is just talk.

It's the same with all of this. There's an infinite number of possibilities about how this will all shake down. We'll just have to wait for an actual signed, written proposal. All other fluff is just drama and distraction and bluster.

Corktownyuppie,

This thread has veered off into a discussion about the various scenarios that could happen with the DIA, which is filled with much posturing and bluster, but my original post was about the mindset and attitude of Benny Napoleon, which is a critical issue that needs to be discussed because we have to decide if he is the right candidate for mayor within the next few months.

While his opinion on the sale of DIA assets may not be the deciding factor in a bankruptcy case, it would certainly carry some weight if he were elected as mayor.

Even more importantly, his positions on how the restructuring of Detroit city government should proceed are critical as we go through this landmark process, and the importance of his mindset and vision is being overlooked while we debate the hypothetical possibilities of how things might go down.

Benny Napoleon publicly stated his opposition to the Belle Isle lease to the Michigan DNR while it was being debated by city council, and he has now publicly stated that "If anybody wants to consider doing something with Belle Isle, I think they should take the DIA first."

Benny Napoleon is publicly stating that he would rather have the DIA sold off as scrap than have the state parks department take over the responsibility to pay for and manage Belle Isle.

His position on these crucial issues is completely illogical, irrational, indefensible, destructive, and very dangerous. It is very important for us to realize what Benny Napoleon is advocating before we cast our ballots in the August primary and November general elections.

[Honky Tonk]

Corktownyuppie,

This thread has veered off into a discussion about the various scenarios that could happen with the DIA, which is filled with much posturing and bluster, but my original post was about the mindset and attitude of Benny Napoleon, which is a critical issue that needs to be discussed because we have to decide if he is the right candidate for mayor within the next few months.

While his opinion on the sale of DIA assets may not be the deciding factor in a bankruptcy case, it would certainly carry some weight if he were elected as mayor.

Even more importantly, his positions on how the restructuring of Detroit city government should proceed are critical as we go through this landmark process, and the importance of his mindset and vision is being overlooked while we debate the hypothetical possibilities of how things might go down.

Benny Napoleon publicly stated his opposition to the Belle Isle lease to the Michigan DNR while it was being debated by city council, and he has now publicly stated that "If anybody wants to consider doing something with Belle Isle, I think they should take the DIA first."

Benny Napoleon is publicly stating that he would rather have the DIA sold off as scrap than have the state parks department take over the responsibility to pay for and manage Belle Isle.

His position on these crucial issues is completely illogical, irrational, indefensible, destructive, and very dangerous. It is very important for us to realize what Benny Napoleon is advocating before we cast our ballots in the August primary and November general elections.

Very concise summary of the candidate's position, the political theatre in Detroit, and results of such a position. The only thing I would like to add is originally, the Belle Isle agreement with the State was for the State to "run" Belle Isle for 30 years [[?) I believe. In other words, "Let the State, [[DNR), take over the daily operations and maintenance of Belle Isle, and we'll pick up the $6 mil yearly tab to do so". Somehow that has gotten turned around to "selling" off Belle Isle to the State. Not true.

[erikd]

Very concise summary of the candidate's position, the political theatre in Detroit, and results of such a position. The only thing I would like to add is originally, the Belle Isle agreement with the State was for the State to "run" Belle Isle for 30 years [[?) I believe. In other words, "Let the State, [[DNR), take over the daily operations and maintenance of Belle Isle, and we'll pick up the $6 mil yearly tab to do so". Somehow that has gotten turned around to "selling" off Belle Isle to the State. Not true.

One of the most frustrating aspects of Napoleon's position [[other than the sheer insanity of it) is how badly out of step it is with the majority opinion of Detroiters:

More than 66 percent of Detroit residents favor a deal by Gov. Rick Snyder and Detroit Mayor Dave Bing to turn Belle Isle into a state park, according to a Detroit News poll.
Despite heated criticism of the proposal at City Council meetings, nearly 51 percent of 800 Detroiters polled said they strongly approve of a deal to lease the island to the state, with the city retaining ownership. Another 15.5 percent said they somewhat approved the deal.
The endorsement comes despite low marks for Snyder and Bing's handling of the city's fiscal crisis overall. More than 74 percent oppose Snyder's handling of Detroit's fiscal problems, and 81 percent don't want Bing to seek re-election, the poll shows. But respondents said they see value in state involvement in Belle Isle.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2V3K5EPtU

Detroit politicians have a bad habit of kowtowing to a small minority of outspoken rabble-rousers while ignoring the wishes of the relatively silent majority.

The widespread support of specific reform proposals, coupled with the very low approval ratings of the governor, mayor, and city council, captures the zeitgeist of Detroiters. We overwhelmingly support reform initiatives and proposals, and we are very disappointed that our elected leaders have not implemented them.

The failure of city council to approve the Belle Isle lease has been their most brazen and publicized opposition to structural reform, and their terrible approval ratings in the most recent polls reflect how strongly out of step they are with the citizens of Detroit:

Mayor Dave Bing and Gov. Rick Snyder are held in equal disregard, with 80% of Detroit voters giving both men negative assessments of just fair or poor, the poll found. But their disapproval ratings were topped by the City Council, which scored 89% negative by voters in the poll.

Despite dislike of Snyder, Detroit voters are not overwhelmingly opposed to his appointment of Kevyn Orr as emergency manager, and, in fact, were fairly evenly split, with 49% of respondents disapproving of the appointment, 44% supporting it and 7% undecided.

http://www.freep.com/article/2013052...vice-kevyn-orr

When 66% of Detroiters support the Belle Isle lease, and 44% support the appointment of an EM, while only 11% support the city council, it is very obvious that our elected city leaders are not doing what we elected them to do.

Benny Napoleon needs to stop pandering to the 11% of Detroiters who support the status quo, and start listening to the other 89% of us.

[rb336]

As I said, if you think the way the MSAs/CSAs are measured now is flawed, take it up with the Census bureau. It's not the Census' fault that Detroit seems to defy the norm that works just fine elsewhere.

I was merely pointing out that if the playing field were more accurate, Greater Detroit would be at # 6 rather than #12