Benny Napoleon: "I think they should take the DIA first"

**Honky Tonk** · May-31-13, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I agree. I've told many friends about the DIA Fridays jazz and other events and some times it's packed. Lots of couples walking about the gallery afterwards. Light dinning. Some people were just not aware...

A few months ago, I turned a corner, and there were some hard core biker guy's & gal's. They were looking @ one of the classic paintings. As I walked by, the guy with the cut-off sleeves and beard says "yeh man, I can dig it, it's cool".

**rb336** · May-31-13, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I like the DIA and am a supporter, but in a sense, Napoleon is correct. There should be no sacred cows, and there's no way we should have more blight, misery and death in the city just so we can preserve some Van Goghs.

You can't ask regular Detroiters to take massive sacrifices while ignoring certain available assets, IMO.

Selling off the DIA collection will have ZERO impact on anything but the DIA and the creditors. It will not result in more cops, it will not result in more demolitions, it will not improve EMT response times

**Bham1982** · May-31-13, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Selling off the DIA collection will have ZERO impact on anything but the DIA and the creditors. It will not result in more cops, it will not result in more demolitions, it will not improve EMT response times

Why is that? If it's part of the negotiations with creditors, then obviously other Detroit assets will be impacted. Creditors want their money back, and don't care if the cash comes from the DIA or DPD.

**canuck** · May-31-13, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

Here's the problem - selling off the artwork would only cover some debt - it would only prevent things from getting worse. The average Detroiter probably wouldn't see much of a difference. So the value proposition is "We're going to sell off very valuable stuff that you own a part of and you aren't going to see any difference." I think that's going to be a hard sell. You're going to have people standing up at community meetings going "We just sold $100 million in artwork, why are they closing my school? Why aren't the streetlights on?"

Eggsactly.

We all know that blight and crime is a major turnoff to reinvestment, we know the school system and everything else needs fixing. But if you want to see another major kick in the pants to Detroit's image; auction off the DIA. You couldnt find a better recipe short of a Berlin Wall or a Dresden carpet bombing to finish off Detroit. Then to add insult to injury, a bunch of chinese cities would swipe these for their own collections. Cool.

**bailey** · May-31-13, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Eggsactly.

We all know that blight and crime is a major turnoff to reinvestment, we know the school system and everything else needs fixing. But if you want to see another major kick in the pants to Detroit's image; auction off the DIA. You couldnt find a better recipe short of a Berlin Wall or a Dresden carpet bombing to finish off Detroit. Then to add insult to injury, a bunch of chinese cities would swipe these for their own collections. Cool.

Dresden wasn't finished off... it's still there... not much different than it was and just slightly smaller than Detroit is now. It took a while but much of it has been rebuilt or restored...especially after reunification. I mean if someone didn't know better and looked at Dresen today and compared it to the "Arsenal of Democracy" who do you think they'd think won the war?

Only for the sake of discussion[[I'm not in favor of the selloff), but doesn't that raise a question about whether a city [[reportedly) still shedding population, and one that will be well under 700k in the very near future, needs, wants, or deserves a 2 billion dollar art collection when it can't fund pensions, can't service a crushing debt load, protect or educate it's citizens, or provide even the most basic services like trash collection without charging extra? Maybe it's time to start over? Speramus Meliora; Resurget Cineribus and all that.

Isn't the burden on the DIA to prove why it should be off limits rather the the creditor proving it should be on the table?

**Honky Tonk** · May-31-13, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Eggsactly.

We all know that blight and crime is a major turnoff to reinvestment, we know the school system and everything else needs fixing. But if you want to see another major kick in the pants to Detroit's image; auction off the DIA. You couldnt find a better recipe short of a Berlin Wall or a Dresden carpet bombing to finish off Detroit. Then to add insult to injury, a bunch of chinese cities would swipe these for their own collections. Cool.

Correcto Mundo. And you know what? The money from sold art works would get pissed away again from further mismanagement with no or an unsustainable plan, and we'll be right back here on this forum posting "what went wrong?" opinions. Furthermore, unless there's IS a sustainable game plan in place, the creditors, not being as dumb as they look, will realize it was a one shot deal, and to quote Mr. Poe, "Nevermore". The DIA will just become Detroit's hock shop. Nothing will happen from this sale to end any of Detroit's ills. This is akin to a junkie selling his mother's wedding ring to get a fix.

**erikd** · May-31-13, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Correcto Mundo. And you know what? The money from sold art works would get pissed away again from further mismanagement with no or an unsustainable plan, and we'll be right back here on this forum posting "what went wrong?" opinions. Furthermore, unless there's IS a sustainable game plan in place, the creditors, not being as dumb as they look, will realize it was a one shot deal, and to quote Mr. Poe, "Nevermore". The DIA will just become Dteroit's hock shop. Nothing will happen from this sale to end any of Detroit's ills. This is akin to a junkie selling his mother's wedding ring to get a fix.

I will be stealing that last line. Great analogy.

**canuck** · May-31-13, 01:57 PM

"This is akin to a junkie selling his mother's wedding ring to get a fix."

Pretty much. But it wont happen because it is too big a collection, and the city is, in spite of its ills, too prominent in the nation's psyche to be hocked off. It would become a national calamity of sorts.

**bailey** · May-31-13, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Pretty much. But it wont happen because it is too big a collection, and the city is, in spite of its ills, too prominent in the nation's psyche to be hocked off. It would become a national calamity of sorts.

Is it? I tend to think if it were, there'd be some federal aid being discussed and "detroit" wouldn't be a synonym for "shithole" in every late night joke or drive by media column.

**canuck** · May-31-13, 02:14 PM

Part of the problem is that "image thing", especially the stereotypical shit that Hollywood spews about cities and countries it knows nothing about. Detroit is on the wrong side of the tracks, it may be a good time to look at how that came to be, and how to eliminate the rancor on both sides of the track.

The feds will show their powdered noses when the collection is on the block, they may not give a shit about the city's despair, but this sybolic shit will mean something to them.

Personally, even though I am an artist and am "thenthitive" to the DIA threat, I would rather see a bustling Detroit of old, with less East St Louis, Baltimore, South Philly, Southside Chi, East L.A.; Newark type ultraviolence; but the collection belongs to the people.

**ct_alum** · May-31-13, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Only for the sake of discussion[[I'm not in favor of the selloff), but doesn't that raise a question about whether a city [[reportedly) still shedding population, and one that will be well under 700k in the very near future, needs, wants, or deserves a 2 billion dollar art collection when it can't fund pensions, can't service a crushing debt load, protect or educate it's citizens, or provide even the most basic services like trash collection without charging extra? Maybe it's time to start over? Speramus Meliora; Resurget Cineribus and all that.

Isn't the burden on the DIA to prove why it should be off limits rather the the creditor proving it should be on the table?

Who gets to decide who "deserves" a world class art collection - You? I guess that the ubermensch don't count, correct? BTW, the art was mostly donated by people who did in fact think that the people of the CoD "deserved" it. Sheesh.................

**bailey** · May-31-13, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by ct_alum

Who gets to decide who "deserves" a world class art collection - You? I guess that the ubermensch don't count, correct? BTW, the art was mostly donated by people who did in fact think that the people of the CoD "deserved" it. Sheesh.................

...raises another interesting question... would those same people donate that art to today's Detroit?

**DetBill** · May-31-13, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Correcto Mundo. And you know what? The money from sold art works would get pissed away again from further mismanagement with no or an unsustainable plan, and we'll be right back here on this forum posting "what went wrong?" opinions. Furthermore, unless there's IS a sustainable game plan in place, the creditors, not being as dumb as they look, will realize it was a one shot deal, and to quote Mr. Poe, "Nevermore". The DIA will just become Detroit's hock shop. Nothing will happen from this sale to end any of Detroit's ills. This is akin to a junkie selling his mother's wedding ring to get a fix.

I couldn't agree more. Detroit would end up squandering these funds with just more gross mismanagement and huge commissions paid to individuals for selling it. If Napolean gets in , it will be more business as usual, especially with the likes of Sharon Mcphail as his allies..personally, this getting all to wearing.

**canuck** · May-31-13, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

...raises another interesting question... would those same people donate that art to today's Detroit?

The answer is just as interesting. I want to think that the metropolitan area would be deemed heirs to the collection. It all points in the direction of a shared inheritance. When the car manufacturing spilled into the outlying suburbs, the wealth of the city transformed itself into a metro wealth. The DIA's address didnt change. Bummer.

**Detroitdave** · May-31-13, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

Here's the problem - selling off the artwork would only cover some debt - it would only prevent things from getting worse. The average Detroiter probably wouldn't see much of a difference. So the value proposition is "We're going to sell off very valuable stuff that you own a part of and you aren't going to see any difference." I think that's going to be a hard sell. You're going to have people standing up at community meetings going "We just sold $100 million in artwork, why are they closing my school? Why aren't the streetlights on?"

I agree , I've made this statement in another thread about this subject .

recap: you could sell ALL the art in the DIA ,and the building,make it into really cool apartments , move it to belle isle, and then sell it and it wouldn't cover the long term legacy cost. It still wouldn't put cops on the streets tomorrow, the lights wouldn't come on tomorrow, and the EMS and cops still might not should up , you'd still have burnt out building all over the city, ect ect . The problem is the WAY the city is being run !!!!!!

They still aren't getting it ! You can throw all the money in the world into the city , Obama could come in tomorrow with every dime the city needs and NOTHING would change, becuaseeeeeeeee ..... wait for it , wait for it , wait for it .!
You can't undone 50 years of mismanagement by throwing money at the problem. You HAVE to change the problem, it's like giving a drug addict more drugs or a gambler more money and they say "ok after this I'm gonna stop"

Each city council member has like 8 assistants, cars, body guards and making well over 80,000

And with only about 20% of the city with a high school education and maybe 10% with any college , and the city's past race history, the "flock" are easy to sway.
Let's reverse this and say the city was 80% white and they ,[[the new 80%) were say "THEY" are trying to take the city away , it would be all over the news how racist of a city Detroit , remember folk, racism goes both ways.

Detroit hasn't had this much attention in decades.
Everyone wants Detroit to succeed , it's just a power struggle on how to get there. How about TOGETHER ?

Some what to go right back to the same old same old

Ignorance :doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

**aj3647** · May-31-13, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

...raises another interesting question... would those same people donate that art to today's Detroit?

Knowing that it will end up on a auction block fire-sale to help subsidize decades of theft, cronyism, and fiscal mismanagement? No way. And the original patrons that donated that art to the public to be enjoyed by EVERYONE would be rolling over in their graves if they knew that the city might sell it to some rich guy's private collection to pay for the CoD's debts.

On the plus side, any attempt to sell that art will trigger a court battle that will last years and not one piece of art will go up for sale in time to help the city's short-term fiscal issues and debt obligations.

**Cliffy** · May-31-13, 03:41 PM

The DIA is now being used by Benny as for the white guy and we should sell it off and get our money blah blah blah. Detroit may have the dumbest voters in the world if they elect him on this racist crap.

**mwilbert** · May-31-13, 05:07 PM

Ignoring the DIA aspect of this thread for a moment, is there any other reason why Benny Napoleon makes sense as mayor? I don't recall the police being particularly improved during his tenure. Has he done anything that would make me [[or anyone else) think he might be able to run the city effectively?

**rb336** · May-31-13, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Only for the sake of discussion[[I'm not in favor of the selloff), but doesn't that raise a question about whether a city [[reportedly) still shedding population, and one that will be well under 700k in the very near future, needs, wants, or deserves a 2 billion dollar art collection when it can't fund pensions, can't service a crushing debt load, protect or educate it's citizens, or provide even the most basic services like trash collection without charging extra? Maybe it's time to start over? Speramus Meliora; Resurget Cineribus and all that.

Isn't the burden on the DIA to prove why it should be off limits rather the the creditor proving it should be on the table?

How much money did the actual city put into the DIA? precious little. The building, the collection were almost entirely built by DONERS to the DIA - not to Detroit. QED

**rb336** · May-31-13, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Ignoring the DIA aspect of this thread for a moment, is there any other reason why Benny Napoleon makes sense as mayor? I don't recall the police being particularly improved during his tenure. Has he done anything that would make me [[or anyone else) think he might be able to run the city effectively?

I agree. he has been spectacular at nothing. barely adequate at most.

**corktownyuppie** · May-31-13, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

I agree. he has been spectacular at nothing. barely adequate at most.

Whether it's the DIA, Belle Isle, pensions, taxes, etc...I would hesitate to get wrapped up in any reaction until a written plan is proposed.

Part of any multi-party real estate transaction or legal settlement negotiation is this process of creating leverage, hitting emotional buttons, etc. etc. etc. It is mind-numbingly exhausting, especially if you are combining high-stakes emotional outcomes with inexperienced negotiators. Prepare for all sorts of emotional bluster [["We'll burn this city down....") during the Tit-for-Tat.

For example, let's consider the very real possibility that Orr is planning on leveraging the philanthropists with the big money with an offer to "buy" the art from the City of Detroit for 10% of market value in exchange for a mutual agreement that it be held in an untouchable public trust and putting their name underneath the painting. [["Van Gogh on Loan from the Corktownyuppie Private Collection") This could result in some up-front capital needed for restructuring if agreed to by all the Creditors.

I was recently involved in a real estate transaction between two non-profit boards and a church congregation. Their lead negotiators would ask us, "Would you be willing to pay $1.5MM with cash in 90 days?" We'd think about it and write up an offer with those terms, and then they'd refuse to sign it, asking for $1.6MM cash in 30 days. After months of frustration with this process, we finally said that we would no longer respond to anything other than a signed, written offer. Anything else is just talk.

It's the same with all of this. There's an infinite number of possibilities about how this will all shake down. We'll just have to wait for an actual signed, written proposal. All other fluff is just drama and distraction and bluster.

**mwilbert** · May-31-13, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

How much money did the actual city put into the DIA? precious little. The building, the collection were almost entirely built by DONERS to the DIA - not to Detroit. QED

If you look at the descriptions on the little white cards next to the art at the DIA, you will see a lot of them that say "City of Detroit purchase". Certainly most of the best work at the DIA was donated, but there are a lot of works that were not. For instance, "The Wedding Dance" was a city purchase, and is one of the greatest works in the museum.

**Novine** · May-31-13, 10:54 PM

"Ignoring the DIA aspect of this thread for a moment, is there any other reason why Benny Napoleon makes sense as mayor?"

No. But plenty of people fell for Bing and see how well that's worked out.