The real Detroit? Hey from the UK :)

[rb336]

The issues I raised started well before the '67 riots. Those were merely the cherry on the sundae. People didn't start taking off because the City was a warm and fuzzy place to be.

and white flight started FIRST. Here is some data for you:

homicide rate:
1950 - 6.1%
1960 - 10.3%
1970 - 32.7%

robberies per 100,000 residents:
1950 - 125
1960 - 239
1970 - 1537

% of population that is white
1950 - 83.6
1960 - 70.8
1970 - 56.0

deeper demographics indicate those who left earliest were the wealthiest - professional-class whites - lawyers, doctors, small-business owners who built homes on lakefronts in OC - where they could essentially live like the landed gentry of England. they left, largely, in the 40s. in the late 40s, early 50s GI Bill vets got educations, joined the professional classes and also left, followed, in the late 50s and 60s, by higher-paid union workers who filled up the inner-ring burbs. The increasing dominance of low-wage workers resulted in soaring crime rates, and that created a nasty feed-back loop that exploded in 1967. that, accompanied by changes in housing laws due to the civil rights laws, resulted in more and more affluent African Americans fleeing the city, all of which led directly to the Detroit we have today

[IrishSpartan]

I think the freeways played a more significant role in movement out of Northwest Detroit compared to the east side. The freeways were much less of a factor in the east side migration to the inner ring suburbs. People from the areas west of Conner and west of Van Dyke were leaving regardless of the freeways. The situations in particular at Southeastern and Pershing High Schools fueled the movement. The housing stock within the Southeastern High School also contributed greatly since it contained many two-family homes, often rentals. Racial transition, crime, schools, were the overwhelming factors and people were leaving regardless of the freeways on the east side.

You're arguing two different things...

Crime, schools, etc., etc. was a reason to leave. Freeways made living further out an easier/realistic option. These two ideas are compatible. Now let's please not make such a nice thread digress into another "freeways debate."

[sumas]

I get so frustrated trying to describe Detroit. I am a historian and the trends that contributed are so complex. So all I want to say is Detroit folk are amazing friendly. Visit, you will be overwhelmed by our hospitality. Sumas

[rb336]

I get so frustrated trying to describe Detroit. I am a historian and the trends that contributed are so complex. So all I want to say is Detroit folk are amazing friendly. Visit, you will be overwhelmed by our hospitality. Sumas

That is very true. If the environs to the north hadn't been inviting, I wonder what would have happened. Chicago took over places like Irving Park and the areas NE of I-90. What would have happened if Detroit could have annexed the Grosse Points? Who knows. It seems like the situations in SE Michigan were perfectly situated for what happened to happen. From the northern migrations from the south, to the immigration from Europe. All of which make Detroit an interesting place to study.

[steve from virginia]

Skip Vegas, it's a mess. It's a bit like Detroit, not as old or it would be just as decrepit. The only way to visit Vegas is drunk. You get clinically depressed just checking into one of those monstrous hotels.

NY was great 20 years ago but you get tired of looking at preening millionaires and their shit after awhile.

Visit New Orleans, sister city to Detroit. NO is what Detroit could be if it can somehow break free of the idea of big business as salvation. What brought New Orleans from the brink [[besides voting down putting a freeway through the middle of the French Quarter)? Allowing people to walk around outside with cocktails in their hands ... and a strong historic preservation movement.

One thing to keep in mind: summer is brutal in the US south. You have no idea.

Detroit was done it by incompetent, thieving governments and piratical big business particularly the auto industry. 'Twas a company town for GM, Chrysler and the rest, they ran it completely into the ground.

[sumas]

Skip Vegas, it's a mess. It's a bit like Detroit, not as old or it would be just as decrepit. The only way to visit Vegas is drunk. You get clinically depressed just checking into one of those monstrous hotels.

NY was great 20 years ago but you get tired of looking at preening millionaires and their shit after awhile.

Visit New Orleans, sister city to Detroit. NO is what Detroit could be if it can somehow break free of the idea of big business as salvation. What brought New Orleans from the brink [[besides voting down putting a freeway through the middle of the French Quarter)? Allowing people to walk around outside with cocktails in their hands ... and a strong historic preservation movement.

One thing to keep in mind: summer is brutal in the US south. You have no idea.

Detroit was done it by incompetent, thieving governments and piratical big business particularly the auto industry. 'Twas a company town for GM, Chrysler and the rest, they ran it completely into the ground.

Not sure what your rant means, certainly Detroit is depleted. We still have many amenities. We need jobs for our adults and services for our kids. Obviously, we have had incompetent government. Doesn't mean Detroit is dead.

[Kass-UK]

The number of times I've read that the freeways are to blame for the demise of an area are legion; and bs. London has freeways also, but they are full of people trying to get in not out [[they charge vehicles for entering London). As far as flight is concerned, that's another bogus excuse; it is not a cause of demise it is the result of it; and in any case London has suffered its own [[white) flight [[about 50% at the moment) due to the funding of a multicultural policy; and it hasn't reduced its 10 million population. And although there are good people remaining in Detroit to call it the "Friendliest city in the world" needs a real stretch of the imagination.

London has something called a 'congestion charge'. Where you must pay to use your vehicle in 'certain' areas of the city, This came about to try to force more people to use public transport, to free up space on the roads. And yes, There are several motorways [[freeways) in and out of London, But mainly used for people who work in the city. The population of London is closer to 8million. But you must remember that London is not really spreading into the suburbs, It is building on top of itself. Hence why the city is so badly congested. I don't live in London, I live in a small city [[Population of about 250k) Which is in the midlands and about 30miles from Englands 'second city' Birmingham [[population of about 1.25million)

The thing with the UK is that cities do not tend to get to big, With the exception of London, Which is the capital. We have a lot of 'Towns' which are basically small cities, Normally with populations of 10k-200k.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

That one stretch of Robinwood is beyond comprehension, I don't think even your most talented Hollywood set designers could reproduce that look for some post apocalyptic themed movie. Just think some kid is growing up on that street as we speak making childhood memories...sad, bring on the bulldozer already!

[night-timer]

As for ruin porn and a city's changing fortunes, this has been getting discussed over on another D-yes thread. The gentrification that has occurred in recent years in the South Bronx gives hope. Charlotte Street was post-apocalyptic beyond belief, but it has been through a renewal, albeit one that has made it into a now-expensive place to live. This video captures the blight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtI-En92Xso - I don't think Detroit looks as bad, but its problems are different to those of New York at the time.

[Hermod]

I don't think he was saying that. Anyway, there was major crime and social ills in Detroit in the 1920s...why did people stay in the city back then? Detroit had some of it's most drastic population decline BEFORE the '67 riots [[Detroit lost around 180,000 residents in the 1950s alone), when schools and safety were not major issues...why did people leave then? It took a combination of factors that led to Detroit's abandonment. Yes, crime & poor schools & all the things you named contributed, but it was not just the clear-cut picture you're trying to paint.

BEFORE the 1967 riots was also BEFORE the freeways. My family moved to Rochester in 1954. My father just wanted to have five acres of land even though he had to use narrow two lane blacktops to get to work down on Sherwood and 8 Mile.