Who wants to bid on the Woodward M1 Rail project?

[Bham1982]

Because we all know that transit systems should be built to serve tourists [[all 12 of them) and Tigers day trippers. Oh, and don't forget the Auto Show.

Forget the 700,000 Detroiters, 25% of which lack cars, and 80,000 of which already ride the buses daily.

[southofbloor]

Isn't this intended to be the first component of a rapid transit system that uses this vehicle type? This is a line that could be added to, like Detroit used to have before the heavily used streetcars were junked - cheaper than subways, faster and better than busses.

And so putting aside the business travellers that are an integral component of your economy [[more than 12, many who fly in and stay downtown, and many of whom don't but would stay downtown if getting around was easier, driving up the appeal of locating new business in your city as opposed to the surrounding towns) - isn't the 53 the most heavily used route by residents? Why wouldn't you start with that one and feed into it/ add onto it? Given the choice between taking a streetcar and a bus, I guess I personally would go out of my way to take the streetcar route - can work/ read on a streetcar but not on a bus.

[Honky Tonk]

can work/ read on a streetcar but not on a bus.

Why is that?

[southofbloor]

Why is that?

They don't shake as much - no pulling over to the curb, less jerkiness. I am between a bus line which is closer and faster and a streetcar line that is farther and therefore more time which could get me to work here in TO. I make the extra trek to the streetcar line.

[southofbloor]

Gotta be part of a larger plan though - there are a lot of Detroiters who are still going to be stranded if this is the only line.

[professorscott]

They don't shake as much - no pulling over to the curb, less jerkiness. I am between a bus line which is closer and faster and a streetcar line that is farther and therefore more time which could get me to work here in TO. I make the extra trek to the streetcar line.

The lack of jerkiness is the difference between how a vehicle powered by an electric motor and sitting on rails works and a vehicle powered by a diesel engine and running on a road works. First, the electric motor does not allow for sudden changes in acceleration, which is what causes horizontal front-back jerk. Second, the rails are maintained level [[no potholes, etc.) which is how you eliminate up-down jerk. And as south pointed out, they don't have to pull over which causes left-right jerk. It's easier for a streetcar operator to give you a smooth ride than it is for a bus operator.

[flybrew]

That looks pretty cool! I am all in for it, but I don't have money!

[casscorridor]

I don't really agree with the sentiment that the city should recreate its streetcar system of the early 20th century. It worked for the city then, but it's not what we need now. We need regional transportation, i.e. light-rail/commuter rail into the suburbs. Fact of the matter is that Detroit is no longer where the majority of people in this region live or work. The city, of course, should be the focus and center of the region, and transit should be oriented toward it. But recreating the streetcar system would do little to address regional transportation needs.

Buses also will not work for this. Are there any examples of a bus system that can serve such long distances? Rail is needed. Downtown needs connections to places like Dearborn, Southfield, Troy and Warren. I hate to say it, but it's true. I think making such regional connections would go light-years further to help Detroit than any streetcar. It would make living in the city more desirable [[because of transportation) and would make Downtown more desirable to companies to locate because it would be at the center of the transit system. A couple streetcars in/around Downtown can be part of the system, so we build up typical high-density urban core, where people don't need cars. But what is really need is *regional* transit.

[Hermod]

I don't really agree with the sentiment that the city should recreate its streetcar system of the early 20th century. It worked for the city then, but it's not what we need now. We need regional transportation, i.e. light-rail/commuter rail into the suburbs. Fact of the matter is that Detroit is no longer where the majority of people in this region live or work. The city, of course, should be the focus and center of the region, and transit should be oriented toward it. But recreating the streetcar system would do little to address regional transportation needs.

Buses also will not work for this. Are there any examples of a bus system that can serve such long distances? Rail is needed. Downtown needs connections to places like Dearborn, Southfield, Troy and Warren. I hate to say it, but it's true. I think making such regional connections would go light-years further to help Detroit than any streetcar. It would make living in the city more desirable [[because of transportation) and would make Downtown more desirable to companies to locate because it would be at the center of the transit system. A couple streetcars in/around Downtown can be part of the system, so we build up typical high-density urban core, where people don't need cars. But what is really need is *regional* transit.

Why I said that if they began M1 rail in Pontiac and built toward the river it would be funded and finished more quickly. As it is, it is more likely to live and die as a 3-mile linear people mover

[southofbloor]

I like the regional rail transit thing, from downtown to downtown. The region has been mostly build based on car spaced neighbourhood layouts but this would allow someone to get dropped off at a hub and commute. Toronto is adapting existing rail lines to improve those connections btw the city core and the satellite cities. I think you're right that that would do more for attracting business back to the city, and cut down on the demolitions for parking lots.

But I think you need both.

[Honky Tonk]

demolitions for parking lots. But I think you need both.

I agree, more demolitions and parking lots......

[DetroitPlanner]

It is in very close proximity to where the new International Bridge is going in. I hope someone had the forsight to think ahead on this one. Otherwise they'll be ripping it out in a few years to construct a "new, improved" version.

I 94 trucks will use either I-96 or Livernois to get to the NITC.

[southofbloor]

I agree, more demolitions and parking lots......

Lol.

And absentee slumlords.

[401don]

Which is Detroit doing first, buying the cars or laying the track, just curious.

[canuck]

Suburban rail is needed that's obvious, but isnt the idea of a Woodward line to help restructure habitation, and motivate retail along its length. If the suburbs want to get in on it, then why dont they? Why argue about an either/or situation when both systems need to be delivered in order for the metro to be rehabilitated. The old systems both suburban rail and streetcars were brought to their knees thru attrition, now is the time for all cities in the region to rehab what was once a normally equipped metropolitan area.

The people mover has a touristy feel to it but that is not a bad thing. Plenty of cities worldwide have special transit equipment like cablecars going up escarpments that provide an alternative to streetlevel views; that is a good thing for Detroit. The People Mover was not the problem, it had more to do with the fact that the city lacked larger systems. This did not bode well for the economic outlook of Detroiters. Given time and connectivity, the People Mover can help circulate workers and tourists downtown.

M1 rail can help revive neighborhoods by connecting to the core and Midtown in a smart and efficient way. Suburban rail is another animal; it requires as much faith as the recovery of the core city because there is such resistance to it.

I think if you axed anyone in a suburb of Chicago, Toronto or Philadelphia whether they approve new lines and stations in their neck of the woods, a majority would answer in the positive even if they dont use transit. The fact that Detroit has lost this equipment over a long period has created a sense that transit is unimportant since its citizens rely on automotive transport for the most part.

[professorscott]

Which is Detroit doing first, buying the cars or laying the track, just curious.

The critical path item in these projects is usually the streetcars; it takes longer to get the vehicles, believe it or not, than to build the infrastructure. Having said that though, Mr. Childs is running on all cylinders and getting all efforts started more or less simultaneously.

As you might expect, this being a miniscule streetcar order, they are going to try to piggyback onto an existing, larger order, saving both time and beaucoups dollars.