And Yet Again, the Suburbs/State Screw Detroit Over

[antongast]

Also, like a bunch of other people on here are saying, yes, for the love of Christ, DDOT needs more money. Yes, it's inefficient in some ways, but I don't get why people think that's incompatible with it needing more money. Regardless of the maintenance issues, it doesn't have enough money right now to provide as much service as people need to get around Detroit. You're not going to squeeze enough out of efficiency gains to change that. Cutting or freezing funding until they get their shit together is just completely dismissive of the real transit needs of people in this city. Everything isn't always about efficiency and the bottom line. Jeezus.

[downtownguy]

What proof do you have? I'm one of the last people to cry about racial injustice, and I'm white, but I've been around these parts long enough to read between the lines. For you and hundreds of thousands of suburbanites just like you, as long as Detroit and its agencies are run by black people, it will always be "corrupt." So you'll never want to see anything here funded. I can't find anything about DDOT corruption. I've always understood DDOT as the little engine that could, doing what it can for so many with extremely few resources.

This is why I generally couldn't give a shit less about our glorious wonderful suburbs. They're out for their own asses 99% of the time. I don't know why the objective of the city so often is to pander to them. For crumbs?

This pisses me off to no end. All you suburbanites bitch about how Detroiters [[read: blacks) don't want to work and then you take away the means of getting to work. Fuck this region in the ass with a tree trunk.

Amen, poobert. Amen.

[Wesley Mouch]

Also, like a bunch of other people on here are saying, yes, for the love of Christ, DDOT needs more money. Yes, it's inefficient in some ways, but I don't get why people think that's incompatible with it needing more money. Regardless of the maintenance issues, it doesn't have enough money right now to provide as much service as people need to get around Detroit. You're not going to squeeze enough out of efficiency gains to change that. Cutting or freezing funding until they get their shit together is just completely dismissive of the real transit needs of people in this city. Everything isn't always about efficiency and the bottom line. Jeezus.

"Inefficient in some ways'. Read the report posted by Gistok from the city. "When the City’s bus system is compared to similar bus systems, its maintenance cost per mile is uncompetitive". Their cost per mile is nearly $2.00 vs. 80 cents for other major cities. it was kind to call it uncompetitive. its not about the money from efficiency gains -- although that might just pay for good transit. Its that tossing money at it doesn't work. If it did, then the 2 1/2 times more we pay in Detroit per mile for maintenance might have fixed it.

Actually, everything is about the bottom line and efficiency. That's what delivers good transit. So let's get there.

[Shollin]

What proof do you have? I'm one of the last people to cry about racial injustice, and I'm white, but I've been around these parts long enough to read between the lines. For you and hundreds of thousands of suburbanites just like you, as long as Detroit and its agencies are run by black people, it will always be "corrupt." So you'll never want to see anything here funded. I can't find anything about DDOT corruption. I've always understood DDOT as the little engine that could, doing what it can for so many with extremely few resources.

This is why I generally couldn't give a shit less about our glorious wonderful suburbs. They're out for their own asses 99% of the time. I don't know why the objective of the city so often is to pander to them. For crumbs?

This pisses me off to no end. All you suburbanites bitch about how Detroiters [[read: blacks) don't want to work and then you take away the means of getting to work. Fuck this region in the ass with a tree trunk.

The only one with a tree trunk up their ass is you. Why are you still living here?

[Shollin]

Detroit has been getting the majority of the funding. Detroit is getting all the funding for the M1 rail. Detroit has gotten the funding for the Rosa Parks Transit Center. Detroit got all the funding for the PeopleMover debacle. We've been told that regional transit is needed for the region to succeed. We decide to spend the funding evenly throughout the region and Detroit whines yet again about losing a subsidy.

[Bham1982]

So I guess most folks didn't bother to read the article. This thread is about "evil suburbs", yet the feds are the ones pointing out the imbalance. If the feds can be believed, the current funding split is anything but "regional", it's a massive subsidy for Detroit, while the 80-85% of the local population not in Detroit gets screwed. The feds appear to want the same rules applied in Metro Detroit as in every other metro area.

[Novine]

"We decide to spend the funding evenly throughout the region and Detroit whines yet again about losing a subsidy."

This is the same logic that justifies sending hundreds of millions of dollars in transportation money to Alaska. Detroit has 3/4s of the riders in the region. Why shouldn't transit money go to where the transit riders are using the system?

[313WX]

So I guess most folks didn't bother to read the article. This thread is about "evil suburbs", yet the feds are the ones pointing out the imbalance. If the feds can be believed, the current funding split is anything but "regional", it's a massive subsidy for Detroit, while the 80-85% of the local population not in Detroit gets screwed. The feds appear to want the same rules applied in Metro Detroit as in every other metro area.

Like gnome, I guess you also failed to read this part of the article...

The Southeast Michigan Council of Governments' 50-member executive committee voted to approve a change in the formula for distributing $41.2 million in federal capital allocations for bus upgrades to a 51.5 percent to 48.5 percent split favoring SMART from 65 percent to 35 percent in Detroit's favor.

[Zug]

But the article says...

SEMCOG executive director Paul Tait said the funding change is dictated by the Federal Transit Administration to be closer in line with other regions.

[Zug]

I don't like that DDOT will receive less funding. Unfortunately, it does sound like the region was doing the split in an unorthodox way for that specific grant. It sucks for DDOT, but if there are stipulations for how money is spent, then those need to be followed.

However, I don't think the timing of the decision is that surprising. Everyone knows the city has an EM...so the mayor & city council are toothless at the moment. I guess we should all look to see how Orr will address this.

[antongast]

But the article says...

Mr. Tait is doing his best to spin it that way, but if you dig into the documents, SEMCOG actually had a lot of discretion over how to distribute the money. They were instructed by FTA to come up with some set of objective criteria to replace the arbitrary 65/35 split, but they could easily have chosen criteria that would have preserved roughly the same ratio.

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't like that DDOT will receive less funding. Unfortunately, it does sound like the region was doing the split in an unorthodox way for that specific grant. It sucks for DDOT, but if there are stipulations for how money is spent, then those need to be followed.

However, I don't think the timing of the decision is that surprising. Everyone knows the city has an EM...so the mayor & city council are toothless at the moment. I guess we should all look to see how Orr will address this.

I hope Orr has the balls to dissolve DDOT and thereby enable others to deliver reliable, affordable, sustainable transit.

We wouldn't tolerate separate white/black systems. Why do we tolerate separate city/suburb systems. The only reason I can see is that its about politics. No one in the city could say 'why are we running busses, let SMART do it' and stay in office. But who cares who runs busses, so long as they run.

Do we want politics or public transportation?

[Zug]

antongast, 313WX was acting like it was only local governments involved. I was just pointing to where the feds were mentioned in the article. You're probably right on what you're saying...and I wish more could have been done to keep DDOT better funded.

However, something I want to know is what percent of SMART ridership is from Detroit? I'm sure it's not possible to have a solid number...but perhaps an estimate exists somewhere. Because a better funded SMART could potentially help Detroiters get around more than it helps suburbanites. I remember when Livonia decided to leave SMART, one of their [[slightly-veiled racist) arguments was that people from Livonia didn't need the bus and it just brought Detroiters into their community. So, a silver lining could be that it helps Detroiters even if SMART gets the funding. I mean, it's not like Detroiters only want to do things within the bounds of the DOT service area.

Wesley, I am in agreement...I don't understand why we still have separate systems. There's been so many attempts & promises to merge over the decades...but they all fail [[recent failures were due to collective bargaining issues). I wonder if it's more feasible under the right-to-work laws...I don't know, but just a thought.

[313WX]

Mr. Tait is doing his best to spin it that way, but if you dig into the documents, SEMCOG actually had a lot of discretion over how to distribute the money. They were instructed by FTA to come up with some set of objective criteria to replace the arbitrary 65/35 split, but they could easily have chosen criteria that would have preserved roughly the same ratio.

Right.

The FTA's suggestion was nothing more than an advisory. The final decision was left up to the committee.

Just as a few folks on here claimed about Rachel Maddow's reports on Michigan's EM laws, the Federal Government isn't really familiar with the kooky way our region/state functions. What may work elsewhere [[everyone of every class uses an equal proportion of one regional transit system, thus the funding is equally divided) won't necessary work here.

[antongast]

However, something I want to know is what percent of SMART ridership is from Detroit? I'm sure it's not possible to have a solid number...but perhaps an estimate exists somewhere. Because a better funded SMART could potentially help Detroiters get around more than it helps suburbanites. I remember when Livonia decided to leave SMART, one of their [[slightly-veiled racist) arguments was that people from Livonia didn't need the bus and it just brought Detroiters into their community. So, a silver lining could be that it helps Detroiters even if SMART gets the funding. I mean, it's not like Detroiters only want to do things within the bounds of the DOT service area.

Incidentally, SEMCOG's report also noted that the new formula would be insufficient to cover the capital needs of either system. Transit in general is underfunded. It would be nice if Congress were sufficiently functional to pass a better funding bill than MAP-21, and if this were backed up by a local commitment to fund transit adequately all the time. That's the real issue here; all this back-and-forth about who gets what slice of the pie is just a symptom.

Wesley, I am in agreement...I don't understand why we still have separate systems. There's been so many attempts & promises to merge over the decades...but they all fail [[recent failures were due to collective bargaining issues). I wonder if it's more feasible under the right-to-work laws...I don't know, but just a thought.

I really think the merger discussion is kind of a red herring. It's very common for cities to have separate city and suburban transit agencies, because they provide very different kinds of service. I don't really get why people think it's inherently problematic to have two different systems. As long as you have an umbrella entity to dole out funding and coordinate routes and fares [[which is supposed to be the RTA's job), the bus-riding experience on the user end should be about as seamless as it would be with a completely merged system. It's not like you'd merge the city Woodward route and the suburban Woodward route and have buses running every ten minutes all the way to Pontiac, or extend the Conner bus to 23 Mile.

I also haven't seen any indication that SMART is interested in taking on responsibility for city service, or that they're in any way equipped to do so. SMART always gets credit for being less visibly dysfunctional than DDOT, but a lot of it is just that they're running a much less complicated system. I've heard that a merged system would be stuck with both DDOT's more restrictive work rules and SMART's higher pay scales, and would end up being even less efficient than either of the systems are separately.

[canuck]

antongast, 313WX was acting like it was only local governments involved. I was just pointing to where the feds were mentioned in the article. You're probably right on what you're saying...and I wish more could have been done to keep DDOT better funded.

However, something I want to know is what percent of SMART ridership is from Detroit? I'm sure it's not possible to have a solid number...but perhaps an estimate exists somewhere. Because a better funded SMART could potentially help Detroiters get around more than it helps suburbanites. I remember when Livonia decided to leave SMART, one of their [[slightly-veiled racist) arguments was that people from Livonia didn't need the bus and it just brought Detroiters into their community. So, a silver lining could be that it helps Detroiters even if SMART gets the funding. I mean, it's not like Detroiters only want to do things within the bounds of the DOT service area.

Wesley, I am in agreement...I don't understand why we still have separate systems. There's been so many attempts & promises to merge over the decades...but they all fail [[recent failures were due to collective bargaining issues). I wonder if it's more feasible under the right-to-work laws...I don't know, but just a thought.

Seems to be a good place to start is by enabling manufacturing of transit equipment in Michigan sice the automotive sector has a lesser stronghold on the region.

The real right-to-work might then mean putting people to work in building new solutions for detroiters in the transit sector of the economy, which is a piece of the puzzle that is sorely missing by all accounts.

All the enginering know-how, design capability and capital is available in Michigan to provide for this.

[Wesley Mouch]

Right.

The FTA's suggestion was nothing more than an advisory. The final decision was left up to the committee.

Just as a few folks on here claimed about Rachel Maddow's reports on Michigan's EM laws, the Federal Government isn't really familiar with the kooky way our region/state functions. What may work elsewhere [[everyone of every class uses an equal proportion of one regional transit system, thus the funding is equally divided) won't necessary work here.

Statements like that usually mean to me that 'it won't work within our political structure'. Maybe the rules aren't the problem. Maybe we are.

[313WX]

Statements like that usually mean to me that 'it won't work within our political structure'. Maybe the rules aren't the problem. Maybe we are.

Fair enough, but along the same line of logic, that conclusion should stand for the EM experiment as well.

[Wesley Mouch]

Fair enough, but along the same line of logic, that conclusion should stand for the EM experiment as well.

Can you explain how the conclusion should stand? I think it does apply. The EM isn't the problem. We are. Is that what you mean?

Realization that we're [[much of) the problem is something we need, IMO.

[downtownguy]

<snip> Detroit got all the funding for the PeopleMover debacle.<snip>

Nope. That one was managed by SMART, known then as SEMTA. They ran the project $100 million over budget. Then the city stepped in, agreed to finish it and pay any further cost overruns. There were no more overruns.

[cramerro]

Is age of the bus in years the right measurement of when a bus need to be replaced? Or is how many miles/hours on the odometer the measurement that should be considered. Based on that I don't know which system truly need their buses replaced. And maybe it is SMART.

To be fair, as has been said, the feds only provide money for capital expenses. Such as new buses, buildings, etc. And Detroit is getting additional funding for M1.

SMARTs buses are older AND much higher mileage, due to much longer routes in a much larger service area. Detroit = less than 200 square miles SMART opt-in communities comprise 1200 square miles. SMART has a number of buses that are over 700,000 miles in thier active fleet [[elegibility for replacement starts at 500,000).

Just a few facts for consumption.

[Shollin]

Nope. That one was managed by SMART, known then as SEMTA. They ran the project $100 million over budget. Then the city stepped in, agreed to finish it and pay any further cost overruns. There were no more overruns.

So you're telling me the PeopleMover is not in the city of Detroit? That's new to me.

[DetroitPlanner]

So you're telling me the PeopleMover is not in the city of Detroit? That's new to me.

No he is saying that of the $$$ the Ford administration got the Region for mass transit, the only thing that was built was the People Mover which was originally going to be owned and operated by SEMTA as the regional hub. The project had huge cost over-runs and that is all that came of the federal money. At the time the City had deep pockets [[well deeper than SEMTA's) so they finished the project and took over management of it.

[Shollin]

No he is saying that of the $$$ the Ford administration got the Region for mass transit, the only thing that was built was the People Mover which was originally going to be owned and operated by SEMTA as the regional hub. The project had huge cost over-runs and that is all that came of the federal money. At the time the City had deep pockets [[well deeper than SEMTA's) so they finished the project and took over management of it.

My original point was that Detroit received the funding. Even though it was through the regional transit system, it was all funneled to the city of Detroit. The suburbs didn't benefit from that funding.

[EastsideAl]

People here seem to conveniently forget that for one brief moment we did start on the way to a combined system. After years of resistance from SEMTA and its successor, SMART, Mayor Dennis Archer was finally able to pressure them into considering the combining of some routes as a beginning move towards a regional system.

But the people who ran SMART decided to torpedo it by dragging their feet on combining routes and having their buses make city stops, and then killed it off entirely by campaigning their own funding and cutting DOT out of the deal. Given the history, and suburban resistance [[personified delightfully on this thread by Cliffy) to doing a damn thing with us on anything like a fair basis, I see no reason to dissolve DOT and give folks who don't really care about our riders control of our transit system. And this most recent action by SEMCOG has only served to strengthen that conviction.