Dan Gilbert, Please Don't Demolish the Metropolitan Building

[Eber Brock Ward]

One person isn't buying everything up. Just over the last few months.

- some developer bought the old milner hotel, turning it into the ashley thru rehab
- some guys bought the building on washington across from city apts with the salon in it, turning it into apartments
- the old ponchartrain got bought by a developer from mexico and is opening june 15 as a crowne plaza
- a developer just bought the giant old fire station bldg across from cobo, is making it a boutique hotel
- they just broke ground at the whitney building, and gilbert has nothing to do with that

and that's just off the top of my head without google. gilbert is just the most prominent of folks developing stuff right now, but he's certainly not the only, and not the only one undertaking major projects.

[WaCoTS]

And if the Metropolitan Building gets demolished so be it. I've looked at satelite views and seen some inside views of that building and it doesn't look like it's worth renovating. Let them demolish it for something better, you can't just save every single building just because it's historic.

i disagree 100%. the blg is structurally solid despite advanced cosmetic decay. just as the Statler was structurally solid, and needlessly demolished.

[rjlj]

Agreed. You don't make decisions on the structural soundness of a building based on satellite images. Based on comments about what a building looks like, I really think some people are confused about what actually supports their own home.

The majority of the construction that is taking place in Downtown Detroit is the renovation and re-development of existing buildings, not new construction.

Does anyone really know who has the development rights to the Metropolitan at this time?

i disagree 100%. the blg is structurally solid despite advanced cosmetic decay. just as the Statler was structurally solid, and needlessly demolished.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I love the street shot of the Metropolitan. It has a truly grand presence at the end of the street. I also love the shot from above; I never really understood the footprint of the building. If it were to be converted to residential, where would people park?

[subsidized]

Does anyone really know who has the development rights to the Metropolitan at this time?

According to Historic Detroit, Larry Mongo [[owner of D'Mongo's Speakeasy) has had development rights since 1988.

http://www.historicdetroit.org/build...itan-building/

[Gistok]

I don't live in Detroit or Michigan for that matter but I think that one person buying up all the real estate downtown is strange. I'll give you guys an example here and it'll hit home with all of you since it involves Detroit. When Detroit was booming and at it's peak population there was only one major industry and that being building cars. Well when that industry went down the economy of Detroit hit rock bottom, Dan Gilbert being the sole owner of several downtown buildings is pretty much the same thing. What happens if Gilbert runs into financial problems, I'm not saying he will but what happens if he does? Then all those downtown buildings he bought and renovated will go just like the auto industry did.

It doesn't make any sense, here in Chicago I don't think we have too many buildings owned by the same person and only one person at that. I don't even know who owns many of the buildings in Chicago. It just seems strange that Dan Gilbert is the only or one of the only people doing anything in Detroit.

And if the Metropolitan Building gets demolished so be it. I've looked at satelite views and seen some inside views of that building and it doesn't look like it's worth renovating. Let them demolish it for something better, you can't just save every single building just because it's historic.

First of all the price that Gilbert paid for ALL of his downtown Detroit buildings... was likely cheaper than the price of a SINGLE Chicago highrise... so that would explain why nobody in Chicago owns too many... they're much more expensive.

Second... Gilbert owns one of the nations largest mortgage brokers, a sports franchise, and also soon to be 3 large midwest gaming casinos... Detroit's Greektown, as well as Cleveland and Cincinnati. So he's not a 1 pony business owner, such as Karmanos or Penske. He's diversified... so there's little chance of him going totally belly up.

Third... when does a Satellite view ever show you any building details? The inside of the Metropolitan Building is gutted down to the cement walls and supports... so it's an empty canvas for renovations. And the outside of the Metropolitan Building are it's glory... especially the very fance top of the building...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bealebo/5197344361/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/decojim/466811114/

There is nothing that could be built that could be better than this Gothic Revival tower with Terra Cotta facade details. Not glass, not steel... This beautiful building IS worth renovating!

And another point is this... if this building were to come down... how will they bring it down??

You cannot implode the building... everything around it is too close...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/musely/4556411895/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snweb/173519378/

And as for bringing it down one story at a time, like they did with the Statler Hotel... welding torches are NOT going to sit happy with the neighboring building owners. After they saw how the AAA Building caught fire from the roof welds streaming down from the Statler demo. When you factor in the city's denial of the AAA roof fire... any neighboring building owner around the Metropolitan is going to scoff at doing this kind of demo.

[canuck]

Totally agree with you Gistok about saving this building. I believe Detroit's grace in architecture is a really important competitive advantage for the future. It may not be important to a sizable portion of the population now, but as the downtown becoems a magnet, these older gems will be missed if demolished or replaced by the unimpressive architecture we see going up everywhere.

There are great buildings being built now, but the skyscrapers of that era need to be preserved, period. And that goes for every other city also., but Detroit has a definite trademark edge over many other cities, an it needs to recognize this before other behemoths fall to the axe of greedy men.

[WaCoTS]

I never really understood the footprint of the building. If it were to be converted to residential, where would people park?

if all the blgs downtown are converted to residential, where would people work?
lol.

anyway its lot shape is a product of the Woodward Plan street layout which dominates the "Necklace District."

[ismoakrack]

Eber Brock, where did you hear about the building on Washington being turned into apts? What was it before?

Also, don't forget the law firm from Birmingham that bought a mid-rise office building on E. Congress, DTE's purchase of the Salvation Army building, Security Trust Lofts, Capitol Park developments etc...that do not involve Gilbert.

[esp1986]

if all the blgs downtown are converted to residential, where would people work?
lol.

anyway its lot shape is a product of the Woodward Plan street layout which dominates the "Necklace District."

Agreed. Downtown needs to be more office space than anything else. Office space garners more people per square foot, thus generating more foot traffic. The surrounding neighborhoods such as Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Cass Park, and the East Riverfront are best served for the majority of downtown area dwellers.

There's a reason it's called the Central BUSINESS District... But if everyone wants to turn every dilapidated building downtown into lofts, there will be no room for that BUSINESS. If Detroit is going to come back, we need to have jobs downtown. At least double the 85,000 we have now. Personally, I think the Lofts at Merchant's Row, while a nice place to live, is a terrible use of that space...

[downtownguy]

Eber Brock, where did you hear about the building on Washington being turned into apts? What was it before?

I believe he's referring to the Claridge Apartments: http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...light=claridge

[Richard]

Agreed. Downtown needs to be more office space than anything else. Office space garners more people per square foot, thus generating more foot traffic. The surrounding neighborhoods such as Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Cass Park, and the East Riverfront are best served for the majority of downtown area dwellers.

There's a reason it's called the Central BUSINESS District... But if everyone wants to turn every dilapidated building downtown into lofts, there will be no room for that BUSINESS. If Detroit is going to come back, we need to have jobs downtown. At least double the 85,000 we have now. Personally, I think the Lofts at Merchant's Row, while a nice place to live, is a terrible use of that space...

What happened in the past is the cities reworked the downtown based on the commercial aspect first which in turn drove the property price up,then you end up with nobody there after five pm.

Then when they tried adding residential afterwards it was very expensive locking out the adverage person ,I think they are or have learned from the past and are doing good trying to keep a nice balence from the start , the whole concept of live ,work and play which will keep the city active after 5.

[Gistok]

Agreed. Downtown needs to be more office space than anything else. Office space garners more people per square foot, thus generating more foot traffic. The surrounding neighborhoods such as Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Cass Park, and the East Riverfront are best served for the majority of downtown area dwellers.

There's a reason it's called the Central BUSINESS District... But if everyone wants to turn every dilapidated building downtown into lofts, there will be no room for that BUSINESS. If Detroit is going to come back, we need to have jobs downtown. At least double the 85,000 we have now. Personally, I think the Lofts at Merchant's Row, while a nice place to live, is a terrible use of that space...

Gotta disagree strongly on this point... Detroit wants to be more like NYC Midtown [[combination of business and residential means being vibrant day and night)... rather than NYC Downtown... busy in the day time, dead at night.

Those buildings along Woodward are too small for regular business use... but perfect for residential. There are so many larger office buildings downtown that are still unutilized [[Book, Stott, Michigan Mutual), as well as 1/2 of Comerica Tower. Businesses much prefer newer Class A space, rather than Class C space, which is what much of the Woodward corridor would have been. There's still a lot of empty office space in existing buildings and in the empty ones I just mentioned. Plus there's the Monroe block area that can still be developed... and even 150 West Jefferson was built to house a 2nd office tower.

Leaving all the space available for "eventual" commercial will just mean more space ends up like the Lafayette Building... gone...

Lower Woodward should be more office space... and GCP more residential space.

[illwill]

Converting most of Detroit's existing buildings for office use is not the most practical way to go these days because most office lessees prefer technologically updated buildings. This means brand new construction. Tenants will just about always choose a new building over a historic property almost every time. To reconvert a historic building to a technologically feasible building can be more expensive in many cases and also not practical for the modern client. The newer glass and steel buildings allow more light and the developer can build them to fit today's highest and best use for today's lessee.

So saving and converting the historic buildings into residential use "anywhere" is a good thing. New construction will always be the preferred choice for office use in this day and age.

[Zads07]

Anybody know whats up with the Metro? I've noticed the shrubs that used to be up there are now gone. There's also a ladder that's been up there for at least a week, but I'm not sure if it's attached to the building or if it's separate.

[DetroitPlanner]

Anybody know whats up with the Metro? I've noticed the shrubs that used to be up there are now gone. There's also a ladder that's been up there for at least a week, but I'm not sure if it's attached to the building or if it's separate.

The ladder looks like it has always been there. If you got to google maps you can see its shadow. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=downt...gl=us&t=h&z=21

Most likely it was being obscured by some scrub. I am just happy to see someone has cleaned off the scrub. Baby steps.

[mikeg19]

Was there confirmation on a buyer yet for the Metropolitan?

[LeannaM]

I don't live in Detroit or Michigan for that matter but I think that one person buying up all the real estate downtown is strange. I'll give you guys an example here and it'll hit home with all of you since it involves Detroit. When Detroit was booming and at it's peak population there was only one major industry and that being building cars. Well when that industry went down the economy of Detroit hit rock bottom, Dan Gilbert being the sole owner of several downtown buildings is pretty much the same thing. What happens if Gilbert runs into financial problems, I'm not saying he will but what happens if he does? Then all those downtown buildings he bought and renovated will go just like the auto industry did.

It doesn't make any sense, here in Chicago I don't think we have too many buildings owned by the same person and only one person at that. I don't even know who owns many of the buildings in Chicago. It just seems strange that Dan Gilbert is the only or one of the only people doing anything in Detroit.

And if the Metropolitan Building gets demolished so be it. I've looked at satelite views and seen some inside views of that building and it doesn't look like it's worth renovating. Let them demolish it for something better, you can't just save every single building just because it's historic.

In St. Louis Pyramid developers owned a bunch of properties and then went bankrupt. Fortunately, most of their properties were bought by other developers and are still standing. Some have been renovated. There are plans for others.

One historic building in St. Louis is being torn down right now. It's one of my Cupples buildings Downtown, but it was so badly damaged by water [[after the water tower fell in the roof) that the renovation wasn't worth it. Fortunately, the same developers renovated 5 or 6 of the buildings in the Cupples complex. They're hotels and residential now.

Unfortunately, you can't save every building. With developers, they eventually have to make money, so they do what is best ultimately for themselves. You kind of have to take the good with the bad. It sounds like Gilbert has done a lot of good.

It does really irritate me when a building is torn down and replaced with nothing. At least have a good reason to tear it down, and parking is not a good reason.

I don't think Gilbert's the only major investor in Downtown, though. Doesn't Illitch own a lot of property also?

[Honky Tonk]

In St. Louis Pyramid developers owned a bunch of properties and then went bankrupt. Fortunately, most of their properties were bought by other developers and are still standing. Some have been renovated. There are plans for others.

One historic building in St. Louis is being torn down right now. It's one of my Cupples buildings Downtown, but it was so badly damaged by water [[after the water tower fell in the roof) that the renovation wasn't worth it. Fortunately, the same developers renovated 5 or 6 of the buildings in the Cupples complex. They're hotels and residential now.

Unfortunately, you can't save every building. With developers, they eventually have to make money, so they do what is best ultimately for themselves. You kind of have to take the good with the bad. It sounds like Gilbert has done a lot of good.

It does really irritate me when a building is torn down and replaced with nothing. At least have a good reason to tear it down, and parking is not a good reason.

I don't think Gilbert's the only major investor in Downtown, though. Doesn't Illitch own a lot of property also?

Gilbert, Ilitch, and Moroun, the new "Big Three".

[LeannaM]

Agreed. Downtown needs to be more office space than anything else. Office space garners more people per square foot, thus generating more foot traffic. The surrounding neighborhoods such as Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Cass Park, and the East Riverfront are best served for the majority of downtown area dwellers.

There's a reason it's called the Central BUSINESS District... But if everyone wants to turn every dilapidated building downtown into lofts, there will be no room for that BUSINESS. If Detroit is going to come back, we need to have jobs downtown. At least double the 85,000 we have now. Personally, I think the Lofts at Merchant's Row, while a nice place to live, is a terrible use of that space...

Unfortunately, my understanding is that the big firms usually want new buildings, not renovated ones. That makes it hard to turn these old buildings into marketable office space.

But there's plenty of empty space to build an office building on if someone wants to do that.

EDIT: I see two other people just said that.

But I think that's why, for Downtowns in general, residential makes more sense for renovated buildings. Of course you have some restaurants and businesses also, but they tend to take up smaller buildings. For the larger buildings, residential makes more sense.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Old thread, but Gilbert isn't even doing the majority of stuff:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...Large-Projects

[Newdetroit]

Detroit needs an influx of 300,000 people middle to upper class to live in Dowtown, Midtown, Woodbridge, Eastern Market, Rivertown, and Corktown. Basically "Inside the Boulevard" [[that is my term that I have coined and it will be used in the next 20-30 years...lol. Anyway, come look at northern Virginia just outside DC. There are apt high rise buildings up and down Wilson Blvd in Ballston, Clerendon, Virginia Park, and Court House. Rossylyn is more office and it is dead after 6 pm and people. However, the other areas I just mentioned are bustling with people walking, biking, eating out, and just living. This is what Detroit needs. It needs to be more residential with commerical disperesed throughout. I would love to see Detroit make use of its Grand Boulevards. Besides Washington DC, Detroit is the only other city that has huge boulevards radiating from Downtown. This could be such a positive attribute. For example, if there was an ordinance passed for architecture, you could have 6 to 7 story apt. or condo buidlings up and down side by side on each of these Boulevards with one type of architecture. For example, Gration Blvd could be Gothic, Jefferson could be Beaux Arts, Woodward Mix, Grand River could be Queen Anne/Victorian.. Just my thought

[noggin]

Anybody know whats up with the Metro? I've noticed the shrubs that used to be up there are now gone. There's also a ladder that's been up there for at least a week, but I'm not sure if it's attached to the building or if it's separate.

see this thread:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?10961-Wurlitzer-tickets-piling-up/page3

[Hypestyles]

who owns the old theater that's been converted into a parking garage? what's happening with that?

[Gistok]

If you're talking about the former 4050 seat Michigan Theatre... NOTHING is happening. Disemboweled by a previous owner in 1977, only 1/2 of the theatre survives [[the grand staircase, 3 of the 5 foyers, mezzanine, balcony and auditorium sidewalls had all been removed in 1977).

The 3200 seat smaller NYC Brooklyn Kings Theatre [[also closed since 1977), although intact, also suffered deprivations during the last decades, but is being restored to its' original appearance. Both theatres were designed by architects Rapp & Rapp of Chicago, and are in a French Renaissance Style.

Cost to restore a still intact Kings Theatre... $93 million...
http://www.brownstoner.com/blog/2013...re-resoration/

Cost to restore a 1/2 missing Michigan Theatre? Probably $120-$140 million.

Does Detroit need another large venue? [[We already have the restored Fox, Masonic and Opera House.) There is no CURRENT demand for additional large venue space in Detroit.

And while we're on the subject... the owner did send in a request for the Superbowl Facade Improvement Funds in 2005 for the office block part of the building. Result... "denied"... Excuse: paperwork was improperly filled out [[odd considering that the building secretary had over 20 years experience filling out city paperwork!). So the result was leftover unspent Superbowl Facade Improvement Funds... at the expense of city politics...