America's jobs are moving to the suburbs

[Shollin]

That's not at all what I'm saying. Clearly you're not in the mood to address any points I made. It's mid afternoon so I'll give you a pass since you probably haven't had your nap. There was no room for the big 3 to expand in Detroit. You seem to never want to address that issue. Apparently you want to force everyone to live in Detroit. 4 million people are suppose to be jammed into Detroit

[ghettopalmetto]

That's not at all what I'm saying. Clearly you're not in the mood to address any points I made. It's mid afternoon so I'll give you a pass since you probably haven't had your nap. There was no room for the big 3 to expand in Detroit. You seem to never want to address that issue. Apparently you want to force everyone to live in Detroit. 4 million people are suppose to be jammed into Detroit

No way. Everyone should be forced to live in South Lyon and Novi. Because that's where they want to live anyway. It doesn't make sense to keep spending money to make Detroit a viable place. I mean, it's not like anyone lives there anymore. After all, there isn't any room, and who wants to live right on top of everyone else anyway?

As for the Big Three, we all know that every single person in Southeast Michigan works in auto plants. So it was inevitable that all the jobs and people would have to leave for the suburbs and Ohio and Kentucky and Indiana.

[Hermod]

I'm not bitching. I'm totally agreeing with you. Jobs moving to the suburbs? That's totally a good thing. Give the people what they want​. Especially since it doesn't cost the taxpayers anything. In fact, with all those new tax dollars, job sprawl pays for itself!

It has been quite a few years [[like about 55) since I took ECON 201 [[Principles of Economics) where my professor, Brinton Thompson, made a point which has stuck in my memory about the difference between a "want" and a "demand" in economics. I might "want" a $400K house on twenty acres in Metamora which is like "wanting" a harem of movie stars. If I have $400K, I can "demand" such a house [[I guess if I had 400 gigabucks, I could demand a harem as well).

Nobody would be building these houses if there wasn't an economic demand for them. Of course if your dream "kollectiv" comes along, you can force all of these people to live in workers flats right near downtown.

[Shollin]

Sounds like your economics teacher was a racist.

[ghettopalmetto]

Nobody would be building these houses if there wasn't an economic demand for them.

Is that why the Pultes, Centexes and Ryan Homes of the world build them all on spec? I mean, it's the same as Bloomfield Park. Look at that place. They wouldn't have started that project...or the Novi Town Center...or [[fill in the blank) if there wasn't such incredible demand, right?

Funny how all that "demand" suddenly collapsed when the recession hit, huh? If there was such a demand, you'd think they'd all have sold. Or maybe they'd realize that there is an overabundance of housing stock, office space, AND retail space in Southeastern Michigan.

Gotta give the people what they want, though, right? Evidence be damned.

It's been a long 4-1/2 years, Detroit. Welcome back to the 1950s.

[Det_ard]

Is that why the Pultes, Centexes and Ryan Homes of the world build them all on spec? I mean, it's the same as Bloomfield Park. Look at that place. They wouldn't have started that project...or the Novi Town Center...or [[fill in the blank) if there wasn't such incredible demand, right?

Funny how all that "demand" suddenly collapsed when the recession hit, huh? If there was such a demand, you'd think they'd all have sold. Or maybe they'd realize that there is an overabundance of housing stock, office space, AND retail space in Southeastern Michigan.

Gotta give the people what they want, though, right? Evidence be damned.

It's been a long 4-1/2 years, Detroit. Welcome back to the 1950s.

My God, your ability to reason has gotten even worse.

[Shollin]

My God, your ability to reason has gotten even worse.

so that's what he's trying to do. I got to admit for a moment I wasn't sure what the hell he was trying to accomplish.

[mwilbert]

Is that why the Pultes, Centexes and Ryan Homes of the world build them all on spec?

Yes! Homebuilders build things on spec when they are pretty sure there will be demand for them. People don't build homes on spec where there isn't demand, because they are afraid they won't be able to sell them. Weird houses [[by design or location) are bespoke.

Of course, they could be wrong [[like when the recession hit) but in general it is a signal that they believe people will want them.

[iheartthed]

It has been quite a few years [[like about 55) since I took ECON 201 [[Principles of Economics) where my professor, Brinton Thompson, made a point which has stuck in my memory about the difference between a "want" and a "demand" in economics. I might "want" a $400K house on twenty acres in Metamora which is like "wanting" a harem of movie stars. If I have $400K, I can "demand" such a house [[I guess if I had 400 gigabucks, I could demand a harem as well).

Nobody would be building these houses if there wasn't an economic demand for them. Of course if your dream "kollectiv" comes along, you can force all of these people to live in workers flats right near downtown.

It's an artificial demand that is subsidized by poor regional planning policies.

[mwilbert]

It's an artificial demand that is subsidized by poor regional planning policies.

I'd be interested to know what subsidies to exurban housing demand are provided by regional planning policies. Offhand, I can't think of any. If you include transportation spending, I can see some subsidy there, but I don't see how the induced demand is artificial.

The main subsidies for exurban sprawl are embedded in tax policy, and also in transportation policy. Then there are banking policies, insurance regulations, and education policy. Even areas in the US that have relatively good planning policies such as Portland still have demand for housing of this type on the outskirts of the metro area. In my opinion, there are simply a lot of people who want this type of house. That's not my preference, but there is no accounting for taste.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The bottom line is "When blacks move in, whites move out" That is the MAIN reason that caused "White Flight". Whites were starting to move out before the riot which didn't help, it just expedited it.

[mwilbert]

The bottom line is "When blacks move in, whites move out" That is the MAIN reason that caused "White Flight". Whites were starting to move out before the riot which didn't help, it just expedited it.

This isn't what I would call a reason. It is an empirical observation, but it doesn't tell you why what you observe occurs. And of course, it also doesn't tell you that there is only one mechanism.

[DetroitPlanner]

Lets look at this from this perspective:

Businesses are very cost conscious.
In order to put your businesses into large cities you have to deal with a huge bureaucracy. Often times they say no more than yes, and will have a ton of permits that need to be pulled, operating expenses will be higher, parking may be an important element and there may be a lack of it. Property taxes are nearly always higher in cities than in suburbs. There may be an income tax which will not only cost you money, but be unpopular with many of your employees.

Contrast this with building in a far-flung township. Fewer permits, lower taxes, no income taxes, plenty of parking, the townships will actually court you and give you tax abatements that would be more attractive than a central city location.

Its amazing cities have as many businesses as they do.

[Bham1982]

Is that why the Pultes, Centexes and Ryan Homes of the world build them all on spec?

I don't think any of the major Detroit-area homebuilders build on spec. What happens nowadays is you put money down, sign a contract, and they build your house. Really the only spec developments would be multifamily, because you have to build the whole thing at once, but I'm sure everyone here at DYes would support multifamily spec development, despite its inherently riskier nature.

[Hermod]

I don't think any of the major Detroit-area homebuilders build on spec. What happens nowadays is you put money down, sign a contract, and they build your house. Really the only spec developments would be multifamily, because you have to build the whole thing at once, but I'm sure everyone here at DYes would support multifamily spec development, despite its inherently riskier nature.

You are doing spec. You buy the land on spec. You clear and grade the subdivision on spec. You put in roads. You build your models. You start some houses on spec just to have the place look like it is steaming along and "ya bedda buy now!" As orders and deposits begin to roll in, you adjust your production to that rate. When it is all over, you sell the models last. Then and only then do you have all of your money out of the sub.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

This isn't what I would call a reason. It is an empirical observation, but it doesn't tell you why what you observe occurs. And of course, it also doesn't tell you that there is only one mechanism.

Are you kidding me, it's not a reason? When blacks move in to a previously predominantly white neighborhood, everything changes. The constant stares, for sale signs start to go up, appraisals and values eventually decline over time as more blacks move in. For some inherent reason most white's do not want to live around blacks, regardless if blacks are good law abiding citizens or not. This is why almost 4 million people live around Detroit not in it, along with other factors. If I'm correct, Detroit is still the most racially segregated city in the country, as it was 40 years ago. Nothing's changed.

[313WX]

..and that shuffling jobs around will somehow help the suburbs who lost the jobs when no new jobs were created are trolls.

And yet, earlier in the thread you completely justified the shuffling of jobs from Detroit proper to the suburbs.

[mwilbert]

Are you kidding me, it's not a reason?

No, observing that something happens isn't a reason. It is just an observation.

For some inherent reason most white's do not want to live around blacks, regardless if blacks are good law abiding citizens or not.

This is an actual reason, although I find it hard to be convinced that an aversion is inherent while at the same time being unable to explain its basis. But it does provide an explanation for the condition you describe.

Now, in my opinion, this is at best a partial explanation. There are other factors at work, and in addition it is entirely possible for people who would actually prefer to live in integrated neighborhoods to end up in segregated ones. If you aren't familiar with it, you might find the work of Thomas Schelling [[and many others subsequently) on weak preferences and segregation interesting.

[MikeM]

The Recession Halted Urban Job Sprawl

[Dumpling]

I made up an INFORMAL "Craigslist Dart Board" just now. First I plotted recent "housing wanted" ads - only from April and not all of these.
Then I plotted recent "help wanted" ads from several generic categories. Overall results...approx. 4 'burb jobs per 1 Detroit job.
The suburban jobs are most frequent in a rectangle with Novi, Livonia, and
Troy as three points of the rectangle. Farmington Hills and Southfield have
the heaviest clusters of job postings. [[I make no representations on the
quality of these postings! Only quantity here.) There is a very healthy
pocket of BOTH jobs and housing wanted ads in Detroit, perhaps mostly
downtown. Ferndale seemed to have the most housing wanted ads.
Pontiac is the leading pocket of "Craigslist Nada" which does NOT mean
no jobs or houses are there, it means no one had a need to post for
them on Craigslist. [[But it may be a Jane Jacobs "Blight of Dullness" area.)
Farmington Hills and Southfield are reasonably diverse areas that include
a significant African American population. The same is true for Ferndale.
If people are moving away from Farmington Hills and Ferndale due to the
African Americans there, it isn't greatly obvious to me.

[Dumpling]

I looked at my "Craigslist Dart Board" a little further, with an eye to
ascertaining whether if Southfield is considered as "downtown" instead of
downtown Detroit, are the jobs still sprawled out. Indeed they are, even
within the jobs rectangle.