Nike/Niketown Detroit

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:25 PM

Or wait, maybe I should use your rebuttal. Go build something in Detroit.

**Bham1982** · April-10-13, 03:26 PM

I would say there are only four U.S. cities where the traditional downtown district is still the dominant retail district in the region. Probably, in order of relative importance, NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston.

Then there are a half-dozen or so cities where these is a reasonable amount of downtown retail, but it isn't really comprehensive, or competitive with the top suburban malls. For these, I would say, in order, Seattle, Philly, DC, Portland, Salt Lake.

Finally, there are a few downtowns where retail exists, but just barely, and/or is heavily subsidized. For these, Cincy, Indy, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, San Diego, LA, Baltimore. That's about it.

Detroit has a decent chance to be in the third category, assuming subsidies continue to flow. Realistically, that's about it.

**Bham1982** · April-10-13, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

A third of NOLA lives below poverty. Yet they have retail. Because again, it's not about who lives there, it's about who would shop there.

New Orleans has very little retail in its downtown core. There's a small, heavily subsidized mall, but that's about it.

There was a second mall, but it was abandoned and demolished. There were once department stores along Canal, but they were closed. One is now the Ritz Carlton.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

New Orleans has very little retail in its downtown core. There's a small, heavily subsidized mall, but that's about it.

There was a second mall, but it was abandoned and demolished. There were once department stores along Canal, but they were closed. One is now the Ritz Carlton.

Um, the Shops at Canal were still there last time I checked and looking at Yelp, there are reviews from people shopping there this month.

http://www.theshopsatcanalplace.com/shops <- that's little retail? And you must be ignoring all of the boutiques inside the Quarter as well. There's plenty of shopping in NOLA, are you serious?

**iheartthed** · April-10-13, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Or wait, maybe I should use your rebuttal. Go build something in Detroit.

You have not said anything worth rebutting. I can respect an opinion that is different than mine if you can back it up with a logical argument. Nothing you say is logical.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Finally, there are a few downtowns where retail exists, but just barely, and/or is heavily subsidized. For these, Cincy, Indy, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, San Diego, LA, Baltimore. That's about it.

Detroit has a decent chance to be in the third category, assuming subsidies continue to flow. Realistically, that's about it.

Uh yeah, if Detroit can match the Galleria-area of Houston, we'd be in great shape. The Galleria is the equivalent of Somerset, except Somerset doesn't have an ice rink - combined with the additional high end retailers and dining outside of the Galleria, it's better than anything you can find in the suburbs.

Surprised you'd put DC in the second category. I found Georgetown's 150+ retailers to be pretty comprehensive: http://www.georgetowndc.com/explore/fashion/

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

You have not said anything worth rebutting. I can respect an opinion that is different than mine if you can back it up with a logical argument. Nothing you say is logical.

Really? You think opening mid to upscale stores in the highest poverty area in the metro region is logical?

**DetroitPlanner** · April-10-13, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Finally, there are a few downtowns where retail exists, but just barely, and/or is heavily subsidized. For these, Cincy, Indy, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, San Diego, LA, Baltimore. That's about it.

Detroit has a decent chance to be in the third category, assuming subsidies continue to flow. Realistically, that's about it.

Pittsburgh is probably stronger than third ring. It does have a geographic advantage that makes it hard to shop elsewhere -- the mountains. Now Ptbgh does not have the highest quality, but it probably fits the needs of the residents better than most. New Orleans is very tourist driven and is at the other end of the spectrum. Its a great place to buy a t-shirt, beads or a hangover remedy. New sheets for the bed or a skillet? Forget about it.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Really? You think opening mid to upscale stores in the highest poverty area in the metro region is logical?

Again, nobody is mentioning bringing upscale stores to Detroit. You are driving the argument to an extreme end to dismiss a point that nobody is making.

And I think opening some retail in the city with the highest number of affluent households, which also attracts the most visitors annually by far, makes a lot of sense.

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

Again, nobody is mentioning upscale stores. You are driving the argument to an extreme end to dismiss a point that nobody is making.

And I think opening retail in the city with the highest number of affluent families and the area that attracts the most visitors annually by far makes a lot of sense.

Someone mentioned Michigan Ave. I know Michigan Ave has mid to low level shopping, but it's one of the wealthiest shopping districts in the country.

If you take Detroit's footprint and center it on Troy, there would be many more affluent families in the same radius of Troy than Detroit.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Someone mentioned Michigan Ave. I know Michigan Ave has mid to low level shopping, but it's one of the wealthiest shopping districts in the country.

Once again, someone mentioned Michigan Avenue in terms of there being bland generic stores instead of unique retailers.

If you take Detroit's footprint and center it on Troy, there would be many more affluent families in the same radius of Troy than Detroit.

Oh so we are talking about people within the vicinity who might travel to the retail destination and not just the people within the city limits? Good. Because downtown Detroit is a similar distance to Grosse Pointe as Troy is from say, Birmingham. As I mentioned, millions of outsiders visit Detroit every year, so I'm definitely in favor of including the surrounding areas. That was my point all along - it isn't only the people in the city [[but even there, Detroit is still decently equipped to handle some level of retail).

Shollin · April-10-13, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

Once again, someone mentioned Michigan Avenue in terms of there being bland generic stores instead of unique retailers.

It was said Woodward would become like Michigan Ave. Michigan Ave has upscale retailers. Many of them. Whether they're bland or not is not being discussed

Oh so we are talking about people within the vicinity who might travel to the retail destination and not just the people within the city limits? Good. Because downtown Detroit is a similar distance to Grosse Pointe as Troy is from say, Birmingham. As I mentioned, millions of outsiders visit Detroit every year, so I'm definitely in favor of including the surrounding areas. That was my point all along - it isn't only the people in the city [[but even there, Detroit is still decently equipped to handle some level of retail).

Downtown is not closer to Grosse Pointe than Birmingham is to Somerset. The Birmingham border is literally blocks away from Somerset. Detroit covers 138 square miles. If you take that footprint and center it on Troy, there is much more wealth. The per capita income of Troy is almost 3 times as much as Detroit and the poverty rate is 7 times higher. If you take 700,000 people around Troy in an even radius, there is a lot more wealth. I can't believe I have to have this conversation that there is more wealth around Troy than Detroit.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

It was said Woodward would become like Michigan Ave. Michigan Ave has upscale retailers. Many of them. Whether they're bland or not is not being discussed

Even if we disagree on what was being discussed, the poster said IN TIME [[those exact words), Woodward may become "mini-Chicago." Yes, if people move downtown and midtown and Gilbert's grand plan comes to fruition, Woodward may become mini-Chicago one day in the future. But you and I are discussing what the market can bear over the next few years, no? So nobody is talking about opening a Saks on Merchants Row right now, except for you.

Downtown is not closer to Grosse Pointe than Birmingham is to Somerset. The Birmingham border is literally blocks away from Somerset. Detroit covers 138 square miles. If you take that footprint and center it on Troy, there is much more wealth. The per capita income of Troy is almost 3 times as much as Detroit and the poverty rate is 7 times higher. If you take 700,000 people around Troy in an even radius, there is a lot more wealth. I can't believe I have to have this conversation that there is more wealth around Troy than Detroit.

LOL did I say downtown is closer? Between this and what I posted above, you need to work on reading comprehension, dear. I never said that Troy was not more affluent on a relative scale. My point is and has always been there's enough wealth in and around Detroit to support SOME level of retail downtown [[which has played out with Moosejaw).

Arbitrarily cutting it off at the first 700,000 surrounding residents makes little sense too - it's about how far people will drive to shop. People come from all over the metro area to Detroit. Ten million visitors come spend time in Detroit each year. If you think that number of people can't support some level of retail - not necessarily upscale - well, we can agree to disagree. You seem to keep changing the goalposts anyways, from upscale retail then to Target then back to upscale retailers again; from affluence within city limits to affluence in surrounding areas; from lack of stores in Detroit being a proxy for there being no market for retail, then when it's pointed out that something is being built, it being just a matter of time before will close.

No matter whether it's pointed out that poor cities with similar poverty rates support retail [[even that upscale retail you're so concerned with) or whether it's pointed out that Detroit, despite a high level of poor households, still has a lot of affluent households, you seemed convinced that there is NO way Detroit and its ten million annual visitors can support ANY level of retail [[because over and over, I've only referred to "some level of retail"). That seems myopic and naive, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Shollin · April-10-13, 04:32 PM

I am convinced that Detroit can't support retail because it hasn't in decades. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. Detroit covers 138 square miles. Troy does not. Troy covers 33 square miles. Of course Detroit has more affluent people because the city 4 times more land area. If you take Detroit's footprint of 138 square miles and center Troy in the middle, there would be many more affluent people. For instance, Birmingham and Bloomfield are closer to Somerset than Palmer Woods is to Downtown. Even taking surrounding areas of Detroit, only Grosse Pointe has any sort of affluence.

In regards to Target, like I said if they can't support a Target, what makes you think they could support a Saks? None of them had a Saks except for New Orleans.

You keep harping on this 10 million, but you have no idea of their income or shopping tendencies. I would like to see a link to this 10 million.

**Detroitdave** · April-10-13, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I would say there are only four U.S. cities where the traditional downtown district is still the dominant retail district in the region. Probably, in order of relative importance, NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston.

Then there are a half-dozen or so cities where these is a reasonable amount of downtown retail, but it isn't really comprehensive, or competitive with the top suburban malls. For these, I would say, in order, Seattle, Philly, DC, Portland, Salt Lake.

Finally, there are a few downtowns where retail exists, but just barely, and/or is heavily subsidized. For these, Cincy, Indy, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, San Diego, LA, Baltimore. That's about it.

Detroit has a decent chance to be in the third category, assuming subsidies continue to flow. Realistically, that's about it.

OK TIME OUT SHOLLIN AND TEXAS T ! @Bham did anyone catch what those 4 cities with dominant retail and even the 6 or so reasonable dominant retail districts have ?...... what for it , what for it , what for it , I'm sure you got it by now ,GREAT MASS TRANSIT !

@ corktownyuppie you were talking to the same people I was :-) they said during ] opening day they were overwhelm ! the best they've ever done !
keeping pace with all the other moosejaw stores, so there is pent up demand or else they wouldn't sign a multi year lease, no body is making then sign.

We all know Detroit's story about how the malls, freeways, white flight, ect, all aided in downtown Detroit retail fall.

It's a exciting time in Downtown and Detroit's awaking, something that hasn't happen in a generation ! can't we just be optimistic with instead of usual typical pessimistic metro Detroiter's ?

Which , not surprising enough ,comes from lifelong & generational Detroiter's

Some metro Detroiters are such self haters even after 63 years !
If we as metro Detroiter's don't have faith who will?

I have found people from outside the state have more faith in
Detroit than some "metro" Detroiters ?!
Move on and keep the faith, keep calm and carry on !

Shollin · April-10-13, 04:45 PM

The number of households that make over 100k in Troy is 13,000. In Detroit it's 17,000. A city 7 times larger only has 4,000 more households that make 100k and that's spread out over 138 square miles vs. 33 so Troy has a larger concentration of wealth, disregarding the fact Birmingham is closer than where a lot of the wealth in Detroit resides.

**Islandman** · April-10-13, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I figured if they didn't have a Target there was no point going up the chain but Detroit doesn't even have a Target. It doesn't even have a Kmart [[which began in Detroit) not even a Big Lots. If there was money to be made in Detroit, they would be there.

Please don't forget that KMart HQ left Michigan from their Troy location right next to Somerset.

Shollin · April-10-13, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

Please don't forget that KMart HQ left Michigan from their Troy location right next to Somerset.

What is your point?

**subsidized** · April-10-13, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

It doesn't even have a Kmart [[which began in Detroit)

Detroit has a Kmart on Telegraph south of 8 Mile, and Kmart's first store was [[and still is) in Garden City.

**Islandman** · April-10-13, 05:01 PM

2 points.

Being in an affluent area does not necessarily make this area [[Michigan, Troy specifically) attractive.

Your arguments are ridiculous. While a Saks may not do well downtown, I think a Nike shoe store would do just fine, given our city's demographic.

The times are changing. While I too am leery about what the end result will be with retail moving downtown, the paradigm of all retail being located in the suburbs is changing. Your argument of the number of affluent people within a certain radius of retail being a necessity for success is flawed.

Shollin · April-10-13, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by subsidized

Detroit has a Kmart on Telegraph south of 8 Mile, and Kmart's first store was [[and still is) in Garden City.

I forgot about that one. About as far as you can get from downtown and still be in the city limits. Kresge started in Detroit. I know Garden City was the first of the modern day Kmart. I used to work at Kmart when I was a teenager. The one at Sherwood and Outer Drive.

**subsidized** · April-10-13, 05:05 PM

Back to the topic, I think a Nike store would do great downtown, but as 313WX mentioned earlier, they would need to carry a unique line of shoes/clothes that you can't already get anywhere else in the area.

Shollin · April-10-13, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

2 points.

Being in an affluent area does not necessarily make this area [[Michigan, Troy specifically) attractive.

Your arguments are ridiculous. While a Saks may not do well downtown, I think a Nike shoe store would do just fine, given our city's demographic.

The times are changing. While I too am leery about what the end result will be with retail moving downtown, the paradigm of all retail being located in the suburbs is changing. Your argument of the number of affluent people within a certain radius of retail being a necessity for success is flawed.

I said an outlet mall would do well. The upscale shopping like on Michigan Ave, would struggle to succeed. When retailers chose locations you better believe they make decisions using the income of the residents and potential shoppers. That's why Neiman Marcus is in Troy and not Roseville or Detroit

**iheartthed** · April-10-13, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I forgot about that one. About as far as you can get from downtown and still be in the city limits. Kresge started in Detroit. I know Garden City was the first of the modern day Kmart. I used to work at Kmart when I was a teenager. The one at Sherwood and Outer Drive.

So the Target that failed, which was even more on the periphery than the Detroit Kmart, is an example of why Detroit can't support retail. But the Kmart is successful before it's "about as far as you can get from downtown and still be in the city limits." Nice to know you're being reasonable.

Shollin · April-10-13, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

So the Target that failed, which was even more on the periphery than the Detroit Kmart, is an example of why Detroit can't support retail. But the Kmart is successful before it's "about as far as you can get from downtown and still be in the city limits." Nice to know you're being reasonable.

How in the world is 8 mile and Van Dyke more on the periphery than 8 Mile and Telegraph? Obviously since Detroit has a Kmart store that is still open means they can support high end retail. Obviously that is a reasonable conclusion. The city hasn't supported any high end or mid level retail in nearly 30 years.