Support Gay Marriage? Then Skip Communion Says Detroit Archbishop and Canon Lawyer

**Zozo** · April-18-13, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by CassTechGrad

From the Oakland Press editoral page of April 16:

"Archbishop Allen Vigneron was quite right when he instructed Catholics who are in opposition to Church teaching on serious matters to forgo reception of Holy Communion. Holy Communion is so-called because we unite ourselves to one another and to Christ by this sacrament. Anyone who disagrees with the Church on a serious matter is not in communion with the Church. Moreover, as St. Paul instructs the Corinthians, we must receive the sacrament worthily: “A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.”

The current issue in question is same-sex marriage, which violates natural law not just divine law, but this applies to a number of issues. Catholics who defy or question Church teaching are obligated to examine the teachings, seek counsel, pray, and discern—not simply believe or do whatever feels right in the moment. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, “The faithful therefore have the right to be instructed… and the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church.” I am eternally grateful for the Catholic Church and its leaders for their instruction and guidance in my life. I am thankful that Archbishop Vigneron loves the people he shepherds so much that he willingly accepts public derision in order to instruct and guide us in the Archdiocese of Detroit.

VALERIE GIGGIE

Clarkston

Well said, and quoted, Ms. Giggie.

**Zozo** · April-18-13, 10:02 AM

[God Bless the folks than can separate church from state and shame on those like Valerie that may, in fact, be traitors, if they place edicts from Rome above all else.[/QUOTE]

Archbishop Vigneron reminding Catholics that they should not expect to receive Holy Communion if they support the redefinition of marriage, equating sodomy to procreation, etc, has no connection to the separation of Church and State. Excluding someone from receiving Holy Communion is a matter of Church teaching that happens within the rules of the Church, and has nothing to do with secular society. If one wants to support the redefinition of marriage, that is their own business. Don't expect the Catholic Church to change their rules, which are based on divine and natural laws. And don't insist on being Catholic, either. There are plenty of fly by night Protestant denominations that will welcome you into their flock. And if you really believe homosexuality and thus the redefinition of marriage is natural, and not some egalitarian fantasy, engage the Catholic Church in debate philosophically, morally, spiritually [[if you can), and ethically.

**Eber Brock Ward** · April-18-13, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Zozo

Archbishop Vigneron reminding Catholics that they should not expect to receive Holy Communion if they support the redefinition of marriage, equating sodomy to procreation, etc, has no connection to the separation of Church and State. Excluding someone from receiving Holy Communion is a matter of Church teaching that happens within the rules of the Church, and has nothing to do with secular society. If one wants to support the redefinition of marriage, that is their own business. Don't expect the Catholic Church to change their rules, which are based on divine and natural laws. And don't insist on being Catholic, either. There are plenty of fly by night Protestant denominations that will welcome you into their flock. And if you really believe homosexuality and thus the redefinition of marriage is natural, and not some egalitarian fantasy, engage the Catholic Church in debate philosophically, morally, spiritually [[if you can), and ethically.

Oops, you made a fool of yourself. Vigneron advocates denying communion to politicians that don't follow Catholic teaching. Not gonna bother pulling up the primary sources, but: http://www.freep.com/article/2013040...skip-Communion

Ergo, where there is a conflict between the USA and the Church's teachings, Vigneron's position requires the politician to place his or her loyalty to the USA on the backseat if they want to be a good Catholic and receive communion.

In effect, you cannot have it both ways, and Vigneron's [[and, apparently, you and CassTechGrad?) position is that the Church comes first in all respects.

**Zozo** · April-18-13, 10:41 AM

I think you are misunderstanding the article. The Archbishop is suggesting the denial of Holy Communion to those who support the redefinition of marriage. He is not denying politicians Holy Communion. There is a difference.

**TheUsualSuspect** · April-18-13, 10:50 AM

It seems to me that there are many who view church, and church attendance, as similar to joining a club.

We try to find an branch of religion with which we agree and are comfortable with. Often, this comfort comes with the flexing of certain ethical and moral issues. The Roman Catholic church is many things, but flexible to the whims of it's constituancy is not one of them.

I don't expect the church position to change on certain absolutes. The sanctity of life [[as applied to birth control and abortion), the definition of marriage...I'm sure there are others I can't think of. Frankly, I take comfort in this. I expect it.

The catholic church is run and attended to by human beings. The sexual predator priests, and those who defended / protected / hid them are all abhorent sinful individuals who must answer both to the legal process and to our Father. All of those, victims and predators alike, are included in my nightly prayers.

The Roman Catholic church is an easy target for a variety of reasons. The actions of a very small minority have been contemptable. It remains however, St. Peters rock and one of the most humanitarian and charitable organizations in all of human existance.

**MommaDrizzly** · April-20-13, 04:16 PM

Why be a Catholic if you are not going to follow the rules?

its not a cafeteria. You don't get to pick and choose. It's the freaking CHURCH.

**Bham1982** · April-20-13, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zozo

Archbishop Vigneron reminding Catholics that they should not expect to receive Holy Communion if they support the redefinition of marriage, equating sodomy to procreation, etc, has no connection to the separation of Church and State.

I am so sick of this bullshit reasoning. NOONE is saying that there should be a redefinition of marriage within the Catholic church. The issue is whether the STATE should recognize CIVIL contracts of marriage between consenting adults. I wish the church would quit lying about this, and stop trying to butt their way into our democracy, and I'm Catholic! They have no business dictating civil law.

**Bham1982** · April-20-13, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by MommaDrizzly

Why be a Catholic if you are not going to follow the rules?

its not a cafeteria. You don't get to pick and choose. It's the freaking CHURCH.

Yes, and how does support for civil recognition of marriage violate the Catholic rules? The Church does not recognize civil marriage to begin with; whether the State marries Dick and Jane or Dick and John is of no consequence to the Catholic sacrament of marriage; in either case, it isn't "real" marriage in Rome's eyes unless conducted by the Church.

**MommaDrizzly** · April-21-13, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yes, and how does support for civil recognition of marriage violate the Catholic rules? The Church does not recognize civil marriage to begin with; whether the State marries Dick and Jane or Dick and John is of no consequence to the Catholic sacrament of marriage; in either case, it isn't "real" marriage in Rome's eyes unless conducted by the Church.

It violates the church rules because the church say so. It's the final authority on interpreting church teachings.

Dont lie it? Don't be a Catholic.

**southen** · April-21-13, 11:27 AM

the church also covered up sexual abuse of minors, is it the final authority on that as well? did that fall in line with the teachings of the church as well? its pure hypocrisy.

**EastsideAl** · April-21-13, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by MommaDrizzly

It violates the church rules because the church say so. It's the final authority on interpreting church teachings.

Dont lie it? Don't be a Catholic.

Which is why many of us find this extreme view of Roman Catholicism to be incompatible with American constitutional democracy. Thank goodness other, more enlightened, Catholics like Bham realize that the world has mostly, thankfully, moved on from this 16th century view.

**Bham1982** · April-21-13, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by MommaDrizzly

It violates the church rules because the church say so. It's the final authority on interpreting church teachings.

Dont lie it? Don't be a Catholic.

Did you even read what I wrote? The Catholic church does not recognize ANY marriage outside of the Catholic church. If I get married to a woman in a courthouse, or in another type of church, it isn't real marriage in their eyes. So why are they now getting involved in civil proceedings, when it isn't real marriage in any case? And your "Don't like Rome's position, stop being Catholic" is frankly ridiculous. I can separate my faith from the earth-bound leadership. If I don't support widespread rape of children, and the resulting Rome-directed coverup, I need to leave the church too? You're not going to even have a church anymore under these terms.

**Bad Brains** · April-21-13, 07:44 PM

I don't know what's a tougher question:
1) Why anyone, gay or straight, would want to get married. [[With the high divorce rate, I feel it's obvious that the concept of marriage is an outdated and useless institution.)
2) Why anyone would be against gay people getting married? [[If you're against it, don't go to their wedding, problem solved on your end.)
3) Why do people still care what the Catholic Church says or thinks? With their whole having-sex-with-kids thing currently going on, I think they have important issues to address.

**EastsideAl** · April-21-13, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Bad Brains

Why anyone would be against gay people getting married? [[If you're against it, don't go to their wedding, problem solved on your end.)

Ding, ding, ding... this is the part I don't get at all. Since no law would force anyone to marry someone of the same sex, attend or witness a wedding between people of the same sex, or force any church or religious organization to marry people of the same sex, I have real trouble understanding what in the hell people are getting so worked up about.

If you don't like gay marriage, why don't you just avoid gay marrying? And leave other people the hell alone.

**ronaldj** · April-22-13, 09:00 AM

I was raised Catholic but changed my cHurch affliation as an adult to United Church of Christ. Open communion, supports women as ministers, pro choice, supports gay marriage and has a firm dedication to social justice.

**jcole** · April-22-13, 09:26 AM

The Churches attitude is one of being the final authority, over and above the government; this is why the Church of England, and other Protestant churches came into being. Hence the root word "Protest"
Henry VIII refused to acknowledge that the Church had authority above his. The Church would not give him a divorce, so he split away, started his own church and demanded that the nobles sign the Act of Supremacy.

**TheUsualSuspect** · April-22-13, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

So why are they now getting involved in civil proceedings, when it isn't real marriage in any case? And your "Don't like Rome's position, stop being Catholic" is frankly ridiculous. I can separate my faith from the earth-bound leadership. If I don't support widespread rape of children, and the resulting Rome-directed coverup, I need to leave the church too? You're not going to even have a church anymore under these terms.

To answer your question, the church is getting involved because the people of the world look to her for a beacon on what is right and what is wrong. Of the world audience, individuals choose to reject or accept the word of the Catholic church according to their own reasoning. When people disagree, they call the church "out of touch".

I tend to agree with most of her teachings, but understand that it remains an organization populated with fallible human beings. I can't defend the crimes and the coverups which have occurred. They disgust me.

I do believe in the succession of the apostle Peter and that the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit steers the ship true, through all storms.

**Bham1982** · April-22-13, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by TheUsualSuspect

To answer your question, the church is getting involved because the people of the world look to her for a beacon on what is right and what is wrong. Of the world audience, individuals choose to reject or accept the word of the Catholic church according to their own reasoning. When people disagree, they call the church "out of touch".

But the Church already doesn't recognize marriage outside of the Catholic ceremony. If I get married in a courthouse or a non-Catholic church, it never happened, according to the Catholic Church.

So again, why are they against Civil recognition of same-sex marriage, when it isn't marriage in their eye to begin with? I don't see a clear answer outside of bigotry.

Perhaps they think there's a slippery slope, and once civil protections are ensured, then churches will be forced to marry anyone? That doesn't make any sense, though, has no precedent, and is a clear violation of church and state. No one cares what a private religious organization does in terms of sacraments.

**TheUsualSuspect** · April-22-13, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

So again, why are they against Civil recognition of same-sex marriage, when it isn't marriage in their eye to begin with? I don't see a clear answer outside of bigotry.

Perhaps they think there's a slippery slope, and once civil protections are ensured, then churches will be forced to marry anyone?

Perhaps the Church recognizes from a practical standpoint, that marriages which take place outside of her domain are recognized as legitimate and [[forgive this word) normal. These marriages are legitimized and in a sense, endorsed, when they are granted tax, insurance, and other [[often very financial) considerations.

The concept of same-sex marriage is being discussed and reviewed in public forums for exactly these reasons. Is is a legimate marriage, with the aforementioned financial considerations...or is it not? I don't expect that the catholic church will ever view same-sex marriages as legitimate or normal.

The world asks for a moral compass. The church provides one. The world [[at at least parts of it) rejects the direction. Nothing really new here.

I doubt I satisfactorally answered the question and I don't pretent to speak for the catholic church. They've got enough problems without ME defending them. I just call it as I see it.

**EastsideAl** · April-22-13, 01:21 PM

But you DO recognize that most of us citizens of the U.S. are NOT CATHOLIC, right?

**Zacha341** · April-22-13, 03:46 PM

And, Catholics are not the only religion not supporting, or endorsing same sex marriage.

**TheUsualSuspect** · April-22-13, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

But you DO recognize that most of us citizens of the U.S. are NOT CATHOLIC, right?

You bet. But it is the single largest and most visible Christian denomination among us citizens.

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian morals and beliefs. Sometimes we wonder what those beliefs are. For some, they find the protestant and reformistic churches to their liking. God bless. While I am a Catholic, I sing every other year with a Presbyterian church choir. I might only attend Catholic mass 5 or 6 times in those years. Some might call that a sin. I figure at the time of my accounting for my time on earth, those sunday's spent singing with my presbyterian friends will be the least of my worries.

**Oldman** · April-22-13, 05:57 PM

"....I support gay marriage 100% and will continue to receive communion, with a clear conscience. The issue of equal rights under the law is nonnegotiable in a civil society.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well.....

See the thing is, you're free to leave the Church if you disagree with its precepts.

No one 'makes' you be Catholic.

**Scottathew** · April-22-13, 06:11 PM

I don't get why Christians take on gay marriage so hard.

Allow equal rights, and if you don't want gay marriage happening in your church, then don't. There's no need to stop it from happening anywhere.

We all know the Catholic Church stance on child molestation and the morality of covering it up instead of stopping it.

**Bham1982** · April-22-13, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Oldman

Yeah, well.....

See the thing is, you're free to leave the Church if you disagree with its precepts.

No one 'makes' you be Catholic.

Are you even Catholic? What "precept" are you referring to? I know of no precept that obligates the Catholic church to intervene in U.S. civil recognition of contracts between adults. The Catholic church is obviously against same-sex marriage, which is an entirely different issue and not relevant to the discussion [[because the Church does not recognize civil marriage to begin with). The issue has nothing to do with same-sex marriage, and everything to do with separation of church and state.