Possible move to Detroit, please help/berate me.

[4V4DMD]

Omin,

You can get a wonderfully huge home with character here in Detroit. Yes, Detroit has all the big city amenities, while also being a unique, soulful place. I'm from here and I love it. Lots of truth, variety and moving parts.

Not much convenience. If you want that, move to a track home community amidst strip malls. You should come visit before moving here.

Crime: Being very smart and cautious goes a long way. Get an alarm, maybe get a dog. Know your neighbors. I live in West Village and I met virtually all of my neighbors during the first week. Good people, making their way and looking out for each other. Things happen here, like anywhere. But more than anything else there is an edge to the town. Carry yourself with strength and awareness and most trouble will skip you.

If you want a big, beautiful home for a reasonable price try Boston Edison, University District or maybe Indian Village if you get a good find. Cabbage patch in GP is alright. GP is its own animal but has incredible homes [[not really in cabbage patch).

[iheartthed]

Why? You heart the D. You don't want overeducated dicks like me in town? You think it's a hellhole unsuitable for all but the most emotionally attached? What? I have noticed a certain unwelcoming vibe at times, expressed by a few people. Why is this? Is it class? Race? Something else? Please clarify.

Because of what you said you wanted: a nice big house in a city with some amount of "happening" vibe. Detroit is not "happening" right now. It's quite a bit unstable. Pittsburgh is absolutely a lot farther into its upswing.

If you want a front row seat to witness how a once great city operates when it is on the brink of collapse then move to Detroit. If you want a little more piece of mind and stability then move to Pittsburgh.

[iheartthed]

You've been following my "bye, Detroit" thread, so I won't rehash some of the points I mentioned. I will, however, make an enthusiastic plug for Chicago as an option; real estate may be more expensive, yes, but friends that have purchased homes there and enjoyed them.

IAWTC.

To the o/p: If you're looking for the region's "happening" city then it's Chicago, hands down. If the choice is Detroit or Pittsburgh then at this point I'd have to say Pittsburgh. But if I were you then I'd just spend the extra money to go to Chicago [[or Toronto, if that's an option).

[Eber Brock Ward]

I dunno, I moved here from Chicago, as well, and don't agree with you. I think Chicago is generally "happening" in a pre-packaged manner, and one lacks the ability to really choose their own adventure and, further, to really make an impact. There, things just "already are" and you are just part of the wave, rather than a wave-maker.

Here, I look at all of the people starting things up, like Nain Rouge and the NYE "Drop," and see that they were just regular folks that said "hey, let's do this" and made it happen. In Chicago, you just do what someone else sets out for you, as vacuums like that don't really exist out there.

I think that applies, more or less, to housing, too. Here, you can buy a place in MidCorkDown or Woodbridge that needs a little TLC and you can "make it your own." Good luck finding many places south of Addison, East of Western, or North of Roosevelt that really afford you that opportunity. Again, forge your own path or take one that's given to you.

So it truly is more apples to oranges, in my opinion. Generally speaking, if she were one to prefer Chicago, I doubt she'd be looking to Detroit. More likely, something like Royal Oak or A2 would be up her alley. Fine places, if not a bit saccharine, though, and not worth a move to our region.

OP, Detroit is an interesting beast. For a fair price, you can be more involved and closer to everything, and more inspired, than anywhere else in America. But the flip side of the incredible richness here is that it is earned. It is earned by not walking alone on a dark street at night. It is earned by typically not filling up your gas tank in the city. It is earned by embracing, rather than lamenting, the entirely necessary do-it-yourself mentality out here. And so on.

It's not a decision to take lightly. While it used to be two people giving up for every person [[figuratively, and in many cases literally) buying in, it's now the opposite with respect to the core. Lots more people coming than going these days and that exciting flux that existed in, to use an example, Wicker Park or Brooklyn 15-20 years ago. At the end of the day, I echo those that say to visit. If you can work remotely, find a place to crash and do a "week or two in the life of a Detroiter" and go from there.

[[PS - Everything you need can be found within Grand Blvd, a loop that runs around the city core at a radius of a few miles.)

[iheartthed]

I'm guessing crime is way up since the 70's, and getting progressively worse. It's probably never been worse than right now. But now, no one reports the small stuff [[and yet crime is still highest in the country).

I thought we had this discussion already?

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting tool, murder rates in Detroit are down. The murder rate in Detroit peaked in 1987 at 62.8 murders per 100,000 residents. In 2010, the murder rate in Detroit was 43.4 per 100,000 residents, a rate which factored in Detroit's census reported population for 2010.

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Cr...JurisLarge.cfm

The rate has spiked in the past two years but is still below the high water mark from the 1980s.

[TexasT]

Because of what you said you wanted: a nice big house in a city with some amount of "happening" vibe. Detroit is not "happening" right now.

I didn't see where she said she wanted the most happening but I did see that she wants a certain level of activity. I'd argue that Detroit has that. I thought socially I'd have to slow down quite a bit coming from Chicago, but that hasn't been the case for me personally. If anything, I think I've sped up because I'm not as financially constrained. I think I typically go to events [[happy hours, shows, concerts, speaking events, bar/restaurant openings, cultural events) around here 3-5x a week. That's happening enough for me...but that's pretty subjective.

[iheartthed]

I dunno, I moved here from Chicago, as well, and don't agree with you. I think Chicago is generally "happening" in a pre-packaged manner, and one lacks the ability to really choose their own adventure and, further, to really make an impact. There, things just "already are" and you are just part of the wave, rather than a wave-maker.

But she said she's not looking to be a wave maker.

The bar to entry is low in Detroit right now, which makes it a bit easier to be a wave maker. I agree with that. I won't get into debating the drawbacks with that but I'll say that that's now what I think she's looking for... Or at least that's not what she articulated in her post.

[Honky Tonk]

I thought we had this discussion already?

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting tool, murder rates in Detroit are down. The murder rate in Detroit peaked in 1987 at 62.8 murders per 100,000 residents. In 2010, the murder rate in Detroit was 43.4 per 100,000 residents, a rate which factored in Detroit's census reported population for 2010.

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Cr...JurisLarge.cfm

The rate has spiked in the past two years but is still below the high water mark from the 1980s.

I thought we had over 400 murders last year, the highest in the Country, and a figure not seen since 1987, if my memory seves me. Didn't we win?

[iheartthed]

I didn't see where she said she wanted the most happening but I did see that she wants a certain level of activity. I'd argue that Detroit has that. I thought socially I'd have to slow down quite a bit coming from Chicago, but that hasn't been the case for me personally. If anything, I think I've sped up because I'm not as financially constrained. I think I typically go to events [[happy hours, shows, concerts, speaking events, bar/restaurant openings, cultural events) around here 3-5x a week. That's happening enough for me...but that's pretty subjective.

True, I may have been a little unfair there. I'd need to know where she is coming from to determine whether Detroit would be a more "happening" place. However, my primary reason for recommending Pittsburgh hasn't changed, and that's the instability surrounding the state of the re-development and city government. If she does go and buy in Detroit then she needs to commit to a decade. If she's not sure then I'd say go somewhere more stable.

[iheartthed]

I thought we had over 400 murders last year, the highest in the Country, and a figure not seen since 1987, if my memory seves me. Didn't we win?

No. You didn't "win".

[TexasT]

True, I may have been a little unfair there. I'd need to know where she is coming from to determine whether Detroit would be a more "happening" place. However, my primary reason for recommending Pittsburgh hasn't changed, and that's the instability surrounding the state of the re-development and city government. If she does go and buy in Detroit then she needs to commit to a decade. If she's not sure then I'd say go somewhere more stable.

Why would she need to commit to a decade? My monthly mortgage payment is $300 a month [[about $1900 less than I was paying in Chicago). My house value could plummet to zero and I'd still come out ahead of where I was because I'm saving so much in the meantime.

I hope and think Detroit is going to get better - but I moved here under the assumption that if it didn't get 1% better, I could live with the situation that it's currently in. I obviously don't prefer the status quo, but for a trade of what I'm saving and the financial freedom that gives me now and in the future and I pay off the rest of my law school loans and sock money aside for retirement at a much quicker rate, it's worth it. It helps living in Woodbridge, which is stable and convenient for me [[aside from retail shopping, I have everything I need close by). When the weather breaks, I ride my bike [[no hipster) or walk to bars and restaurants in Midtown or Corktown [[easier when you have a husband and/or dog, yes). I shop daily for groceries at YOBS, just like I did with my little boutique grocer back in Wicker Park. I get my sundries at the 24-hour CVS in Midtown, just like I did in Chicago. I rarely leave city limits. Life hasn't drastically changed for me, just my finances [[and I have a stronger connection with my surrounding neighbors; Wicker Park was way more transient). I do miss public transportation, although grabbing a cab isn't so bad when I've been out drinking.

I can't compare it to Pittsburgh because I haven't lived there. But I have zero regrets moving to Detroit over the other cities I looked at [[the primary contender was Austin back in my home state). It's a very personal decision and is extremely dependent on where you'd choose to live in Detroit.

[Zacha341]

Yep. If I were single and in my budget, considering Detroit at this particular point of transition I would opt for something like the Park Shelton [[though I don't think those are rentals... condo?), short term and then decide on a single dwelling property.

[Eber Brock Ward]

True, I may have been a little unfair there. I'd need to know where she is coming from to determine whether Detroit would be a more "happening" place. However, my primary reason for recommending Pittsburgh hasn't changed, and that's the instability surrounding the state of the re-development and city government. If she does go and buy in Detroit then she needs to commit to a decade. If she's not sure then I'd say go somewhere more stable.

Wouldn't there be more stability surrounding re-development and city government than at any other time in recent memory?

Development interests were crying out for an EM and they got one. It's no coincidence that the huge public safety donation was announced today, despite Bing/Orr's hollow protests to the contrary.

Between the EM for the short- and medium-term, and council member elections by district in the medium- and long-term, it's tough to argue that city government hasn't gotten a lot more friendly to development and common-sense policies over the recent past, even if there are other questions surrounding the EM.

[iheartthed]

Why would she need to commit to a decade? My monthly mortgage payment is $300 a month [[about $1900 less than I was paying in Chicago). My house value could plummet to zero and I'd still come out ahead of where I was because I'm saving so much in the meantime.

I assume you were paying rent in Chicago? Renting and buying are two different things. If she just wants to live in Detroit then she can go and rent somewhere. If she wants to buy in then that's different...

[illwill]

ONCE AGAIN... Detroit & Chicago are like apples and oranges! How did Chicago even get into this conversation? WHY does Chicago ALWAYS end up in a conversation?

The lady made it very clear that she wants to either be in Detroit or Pittsburgh. Neither of these cities are like Chicago so why bring up Chicago?

Detroit is a very charming city in it's own way. I'd encourage the OP to find a nice neighborhood and rent for a while to see how she likes it. She can also give Pittsburgh a try and see how she likes that. Spend a few months in both. After all, if you're planning to buy a house, it's pretty important to know where you're going to be living for the next several years. A few months in each city should give you some sort of an indication of where you fit in. Common sense.

If you're in a nice Detroit neighborhood, you'll be fine. Simple as that. Detroit can be a great place to call home if you have an open mind and you're in the right area.

[iheartthed]

Wouldn't there be more stability surrounding re-development and city government than at any other time in recent memory?

Development interests were crying out for an EM and they got one. It's no coincidence that the huge public safety donation was announced today, despite Bing/Orr's hollow protests to the contrary.

Between the EM for the short- and medium-term, and council member elections by district in the medium- and long-term, it's tough to argue that city government hasn't gotten a lot more friendly to development and common-sense policies over the recent past, even if there are other questions surrounding the EM.

An EMs objective isn't to improve the quality of life in the city, no matter what PR show the governor just put on for you. His primary goal will be to 1) balance books, and 2) maybe keep the city out of bankruptcy. Whether you have emergency service response is a secondary or tertiary concern.

[iheartthed]

The downside to Chicago is that Chicago sometime doth think too much of herself. I also recommended Toronto too.

[canuck]

Bravo, Eber Brock Ward!

Detroit has a lot to offer those with your kind of can do spirit. Chicago is an incredibly exciting city obviously. But Detroit will inevitably attract some smart and tough cookies that can contribute a whole lot more than whining.

Every city has its friggin problems. Montreal has a shitload of problems with crumbling infrastructure, the Turcot interchange has to be rebuilt, the main elevated highway leading into downtown, costing an estimated 3,7 billion, a new span to replace Canada's busiest; Champlain bridge will cost somewhere between 4 or 5 billion. Because Montreal is an island, the off island suburbanites need to cross the many bridges which costs a lot to repair.
I would think that the cost of implementing rail transit in Detroit may be seen as more affordable if you compare the cost of maintaining similar bridge infrastructures in cities like Minn-St Paul, Pittsburgh, NYC etc...

[Honky Tonk]

No. You didn't "win".

I guess you misread my post so I'll be more transparent. Last year, Detroit, had over 400 murders, a figure not seen since 1987. That left Detroit with the highest murder rate in the Country. This was common knowledge, echoed by the Mayor, newspapers, and media across the Country. So YOUR post "The rate has spiked in the past two years but is still below the high water mark from the 1980s." does miss the mark. Detroit, again, leads the nation. I don't know what you're talking about "me" winning.

[Eber Brock Ward]

An EMs objective isn't to improve the quality of life in the city, no matter what PR show the governor just put on for you. His primary goal will be to 1) balance books, and 2) maybe keep the city out of bankruptcy. Whether you have emergency service response is a secondary or tertiary concern.

You're moving the goalposts. Originally it was about "the instability surrounding the state of the re-development and city government." My point was that both of those things look better than in any time in recent memory, at least within a couple miles of the core.

I will address the safety issue, though, as I already have. As the 43c per dollar that we spend towards bonds and retiree obligations is either negotiated down prior to BK, or sliced in BK, more money will be freed up for essential city services.

All this while the private and not-for-profit sectors are really stepping their game up because the city council can't muck things up for at least a while. Again, it is no coincidence that the huge purchase of cop cars and EMS vehicles was announced today.

So even when you move the goalposts and make it about "emergency service response," I stand by my point that things are moving in a positive direction. You may argue that [[1) freeing up the budget, even if minimally, through the EM, and [[2) adding 23 brand new EMS vehicles won't help with those things. I'm all ears, but doubtful that you'll be able to convince me.

[iheartthed]

I guess you misread my post so I'll be more transparent. Last year, Detroit, had over 400 murders, a figure not seen since 1987. That left Detroit with the highest murder rate in the Country. This was common knowledge, echoed by the Mayor, newspapers, and media across the Country. So YOUR post "The rate has spiked in the past two years but is still below the high water mark from the 1980s." does miss the mark. Detroit, again, leads the nation. I don't know what you're talking about "me" winning.

I didn't misread it. Detroit didn't have the highest murder rate in the country last year. It was one of the highest for sure, but it didn't "win". Anyone who says it should do some fact checking before making incorrect statements.

[iheartthed]

You're moving the goalposts. Originally it was about "the instability surrounding the state of the re-development and city government." My point was that both of those things look better than in any time in recent memory, at least within a couple miles of the core.

How does this at all look better than any time in recent memory? This is literally the EMs first day on the job. We're like two hours into new Detroit. The outlook at this point is as unpredictable as it's ever been in the history of the city.

[mauser]

easiest question ever : Pittsburgh.

Get as far away from the State of Michigan as humanly possible so you dont get sucked down in the undertow.

[TexasT]

How does this at all look better than any time in recent memory? This is literally the EMs first day on the job. We're like two hours into new Detroit. The outlook at this point is as unpredictable as it's ever been in the history of the city.

I just went to an event with Cindy Pasky, who sits on the board of the Detroit Downtown Partnership with Penske, Gilbert, Marchionne, Crain, etc etc - when she was asked about how the local business community feels about an EM, she said that businesses see it as very stabilizing and that everyone feels like the outlook is more predictable than when we were all twisting in the wind with City Council and Bing at the helm.

As stated, I think it's telling that the day the EM takes control is the day we hear about businesses making a major investment in Detroit.

As to your previous question, yes I rented in Chicago. The average home in my neighborhood was over half a million, according to Trulia [[which is what I noticed when I started looking at homes) so I'd have paid a lot more if I'd bought out there [[and I probably would not have had a yard or garage like I do now). The OP said home ownership is very important to her, which is why she is looking to leave Montreal [[same as me back in Chicago). If she chose to buy here in Detroit, her monthly payment would be quite low like mine.

[iheartthed]

As stated, I think it's telling that the day the EM takes control is the day we hear about businesses making a major investment in Detroit.

Yup, it's called controlling the news cycle.