Root cause of problems?

[old guy]

Isn't simple logic based on 3 questions? Holy crap, I guess 5 why's would round it out to 15.

[Meddle]

I'm not talking about Detroit or any other place specifically. I'm talking about society as a whole.

Near riots at stores over a new release of a brand of shoe or toy? Really?

Greed has doomed us as a society and I don't see a way out of it.

[Crumbled_pavement]

I think why Detroit is in the condition it is has been debated to death on this site. I think we all understand the underlying causes, as many of the reasons have already been posted in this thread.

The real question we should be asking is why we can't get to a solution. The reason is because people on both sides of 8 Mile refuse to work with each other, each believing they have absolutely no use whatsoever for the other. Each side secure in the belief that the only way they can achieve success is through the failure of the other.

There is very little that can be said or done to convince either side to budge even one inch. This divide guarantees we will never dedicate our full resources towards solving problems. Indeed, city residents would rather burn the city down than work with suburbanites, suburbanites would rather flee the state than work with the city. Exceptions to these rules obviously exist, but if you look around the city and suburbs you will see a city that is 40% burnt down and a dwindling suburban population.

If we can figure out the impossible, how to bridge this enormous divide, we'd probably start moving forward towards a solution. Good luck on that one.

[canuck]

steve from virginia/

There are a lot of interesting tidbits of Detroit history in your post but your evocation of a flicked switchblade on post world war two Detroit by hordes of barbarians is nothing new to these threads.

I would like to hear more about the people "in charge" who decided on redlining, highway building that severed neighborhoods, plant building that annihilated them, etc...

I would suggest the very wealthy; the powers that be, for the most part abandoned the idea of a core city and espoused the suburban tractormower paradise. Detroit had achieved density in spite of the detached tract houses dotting the landscape, it had efficient transit.

The dialogue between Coleman Young and the state and suburbs was probably pretty bleak in spite of the Renaissance Center's bunkerlike arrival. Young was obviously a very tough nut to crack, the product of a society that had ignored and insulted black manhood for so long.

Could anyone expect Young and successive black leaders in mayoralty and council to have many allies to bring forth better conditions on the city. I mean, not the welfare check kind of attention we expect in places like indian reservations and black ghettoes; rather, attention given to industrial multiplicity, and racial integration.

[canuck]

I think why Detroit is in the condition it is has been debated to death on this site. I think we all understand the underlying causes, as many of the reasons have already been posted in this thread.

The real question we should be asking is why we can't get to a solution. The reason is because people on both sides of 8 Mile refuse to work with each other, each believing they have absolutely no use whatsoever for the other. Each side secure in the belief that the only way they can achieve success is through the failure of the other.

There is very little that can be said or done to convince either side to budge even one inch. This divide guarantees we will never dedicate our full resources towards solving problems. Indeed, city residents would rather burn the city down than work with suburbanites, suburbanites would rather flee the state than work with the city. Exceptions to these rules obviously exist, but if you look around the city and suburbs you will see a city that is 40% burnt down and a dwindling suburban population.

If we can figure out the impossible, how to bridge this enormous divide, we'd probably start moving forward towards a solution. Good luck on that one.

You are so right about that, no point in dredging up more obscure reasons; the real value of discussing this is in finding a way out.

This sort of negates the goings on in my previous post but I do think as you say that the solution lies in a sorely lacking dialogue btwn subs and city leadership.
One would hope that a coupla Gilberts can bring on vitality but who are we kidding?

Detroit needs concensual policies based on the greater good of the region if it wants to eliminate the self-destructive vs the elephant in the room antics on both sides of 8 mile rd...

[Crumbled_pavement]

You are so right about that, no point in dredging up more obscure reasons; the real value of discussing this is in finding a way out.

This sort of negates the goings on in my previous post but I do think as you say that the solution lies in a sorely lacking dialogue btwn subs and city leadership.
One would hope that a coupla Gilberts can bring on vitality but who are we kidding?

Detroit needs concensual policies based on the greater good of the region if it wants to eliminate the self-destructive vs the elephant in the room antics on both sides of 8 mile rd...

Ever notice when the dialog gets away from the finger pointing/us vs. them rhetoric that the conversation usually dies? We could probably get 5 or 6 more pages worth of comments by continuing "the other side is completely responsible for all the problems in Detroit" argument.

Compromise usually doesn't elicit much support from either side, and more often is completely rejected by both sides. No one ever wants to look at themselves or their group and see what they could do to improve our region, we only want to look at what someone else should do or didn't do. I see no path forward in such a hopelessly divided region.

You are right about our regional elected officials though. If our regional leaders could put their egos aside and publicly reach out to each other, maybe some of the citizens would follow suit. It's just easier to market and sell division than unity.

[canuck]

crumbled_pavement / I also think that if you examine the messages from the freep, and major broadcasters, they are producing recurring patterns of bleakness, with little critical attention paid to the need for regional coalescence. If the ambiance is as negative and redundant as this, it is no wonder spirits are broken. You get the sense of a lot emotions and stories swept under the carpet. The severance of city suburb for folks who left their old neighborhoods and cant abide with the demise of the city makes it all the more difficult to turn around, but it will need to happen. Oecumenism; or call it what you will.


There are a lot of chores on Detroit's list but the perspective needs to be metropolitan in scope because both subs and city are on a collision course. There has to be a tally of positive aspects; cultural, industrial, educational to inspire the region and provide a base from which to build. Honestly, from outside, a lot of the positives are in Detroit itself, not just the wealthier, less endebted burbs.

Montreal also has to recognize its bilingual, bicultural basic self also, and the tension is always felt for the same sort of reasons of fear and ignorance that exist elsewhere. I am listening to a latino program on a community radio here and they switch to spanish to english to french and it is the same with other media. I find that the winners are the immigrant groups who usually want to be proficient in french english and their original languages. The problematic ones are those who are born into preconceived nests.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd and this racism again. The irony is the suburbs he demonizes are more racially diverse than the city of Detroit.

Find me a post where I've demonized the suburbs, Shollin. You simply can't back that up.

Racial diversity statistics don't mean white racism, especially white-on-black racism, isn't alive and well in metro Detroit, nor that they've been the leading problem holding this region back and causing problems time and again.

Fear and loathing of black people doesn't mean you have to burn a cross or wear a hood. It just means that you do everything within your power to marginalize black people, including to dismiss their very real concerns about racism.

[atl_runner]

Root cause.. is def not the poor, insane, etc.. New York, Chicago, etc.. all have their fair share of those types. It's also not greed, or anything like that. Most of the things listed to this point are a result of one thing... and here is your root cause: Failed Leadership. Decade after decade of failed leadership has led to this mess. The right leader, in place for 2+ terms, 50 years ago.. could have changed everything. When looking for the root cause, look no further.

[gnome]

We don't have a sense of humor. At least not one that isn't all worried about being disrespected.

[Wesley Mouch]

Find me a post where I've demonized the suburbs, Shollin. You simply can't back that up.

Racial diversity statistics don't mean white racism, especially white-on-black racism, isn't alive and well in metro Detroit, nor that they've been the leading problem holding this region back and causing problems time and again.

Fear and loathing of black people doesn't mean you have to burn a cross or wear a hood. It just means that you do everything within your power to marginalize black people, including to dismiss their very real concerns about racism.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this question. And I will answer. But its a mistake to think that there's a 'root cause'.

Almost every problem I chew on is a problem shared by another city. We're not the capital of racism or sprawl or freeways or corruption or labor unions or Republican governors from hell.

Corktownyuppie wrote a great post about the blinders we all put on. Perhaps our 'root cause' is our blindness. It may not be a real problem -- but a refusal to see good.

[d'oh]

Detroit needs concensual policies based on the greater good of the region if it wants to eliminate the self-destructive vs the elephant in the room antics on both sides of 8 mile rd...

The Detroit area is screwed unless it can achieve an intellectual and spiritual evolution...

[royce]

One cause not mentioned is arrogance. Our leaders and the people that elected them thought that they had the "cure all, beat all" answers to how to run the city, and develop the city and metro area. Busses, instead of streetcars, were good, freeways were good, urban renewal projects were good, single family homes were good, tract homes were good, and doing 'this and that" were good. In hindsight so much of what they thought was good for Detroit and the region wasn't.

[Wesley Mouch]

One cause not mentioned is arrogance. Our leaders and the people that elected them thought that they had the "cure all, beat all" answers to how to run the city, and develop the city and metro area. Busses, instead of streetcars, were good, freeways were good, urban renewal projects were good, single family homes were good, tract homes were good, and doing 'this and that" were good. In hindsight so much of what they thought was good for Detroit and the region wasn't.

Good reason to question value of activism.

[royce]

Someone earlier mentioned that the rest of the suburbs did not share in the burdens that Detroit faced with the homeless, mentally ill, and criminally inclined. Well now many of those with these problems are making their way into the inner-ring suburbs. Now traditionally white suburbs are faced with city-type problems. It will interesting to see how they handle things. On the flip side, this distribution of the ills of Detroit into the suburbs might be what Detroit needs to make it more manageable and liviable. Only time will tell.

[Fiestamk1]

Someone earlier mentioned that the rest of the suburbs did not share in the burdens that Detroit faced with the homeless, mentally ill, and criminally inclined. Well now many of those with these problems are making their way into the inner-ring suburbs. Now traditionally white suburbs are faced with city-type problems. It will interesting to see how they handle things. On the flip side, this distribution of the ills of Detroit into the suburbs might be what Detroit needs to make it more manageable and liviable. Only time will tell.

I live in one of those suburbs , the decline in the housing market has put many rental homes in the area, some great people move in. My local police department has made it very clear on the empty homes, any vehicle at one of the empty homes, wether a marked contractor truck or not should result in a call to them.

I have called a few times during my walks in my area and they respond quickly. Detroit will never have the resources to do this. I went to bid on a job at a recently purchased home in Lincoln Park, the homeowner was about five minutes late arriving and a concerned neighbor called the police. I had 4 squad cars block me in and ask of my intentions, this is how a neighborhood should be.

I drew attention to myself in a couple of ways, I was a white man who stood out and I drove a ratty truck. Sorry to ramble but I do not think the inner ring burbs will ever get as many problems as the D. The ones that have the problems have had them since I was a kid 40 yrs ago.

[rakers]

The City of Detroit is engaged in a negative cycle. In Michigan the majority of a city's revenue is based on taxable value. Taxable value is computed using sales data from similar properties [[residential, office-commercial, etc). Using this formula, lower taxable value = lower tax revenues. The less tax revenue Detroit takes in the less money it has for public services. The lower quality of public services in turn lowers the sales prices of homes. This cycle is a major issue as to why the city's financial issues are out of control. The cuts in funding to public services has resulted in less police, code enforcement which has lead to crime and decay. The root of this problem is what started this cycle, whether it was the 1967 riots [[racism) or some other issue that plagued the city. The problem with this is that eliminating the root of the problem will not fix the issue, because the "symptoms" of decay, blight, crime and poor schools are now the problem. While there is no quick fix, the city needs to focus resources on neighborhoods that are already strong and continue to work on removing blighted properties.

[Wesley Mouch]

Someone earlier mentioned that the rest of the suburbs did not share in the burdens that Detroit faced with the homeless, mentally ill, and criminally inclined. Well now many of those with these problems are making their way into the inner-ring suburbs. Now traditionally white suburbs are faced with city-type problems. It will interesting to see how they handle things. On the flip side, this distribution of the ills of Detroit into the suburbs might be what Detroit needs to make it more manageable and liviable. Only time will tell.

Yes, will be interesting to see. But as a root problem it doesn't pass the test. Too many other cities share these challenges yet they manage to remain more functional than Detroit. I think we have to look for what pathologies are unique to Detroit.

[Dumpling]

In reply to Royce's post concerning the inner ring suburbs - relative to either
Detroit or outer ring suburbs, these tend to have a visible police presence for
one thing. For example, River Rouge police enforce the 25 mph limit on Coolidge [[Schaefer in Detroit) well enough that few people go over 35 mph there.
Coolidge in River Rouge is strikingly more lit up than Schaefer in Detroit. It is
also well plowed when there is a bad snowstorm. [[I would like to know if that
translates into lower insurance rates for River Rouge vs. Detroit in that area.)
The Dearborn Heights area public schools actively recruit Detroiters from time
to time. I remember reading something - don't know where - that said that
the schools were looking for specialized school counselors though. Not sure
if the ladies telling the kids to hike up their baggie pants was all that was
needed.
This is hardly a root cause though!

[Hermod]

Yes, will be interesting to see. But as a root problem it doesn't pass the test. Too many other cities share these challenges yet they manage to remain more functional than Detroit. I think we have to look for what pathologies are unique to Detroit.

Maybe the reason is that Detroit was a boomtown with the boom being the auto. When the boom ended in the 1970s, there really was no reason for Detroit to exist anymore. The downtown just was not essential. Despite their problems, New York and Washington have vital activities at their core. Detroit does not.

[Nero]

Wealth. Grandeur.

The cheap homes in Detroit were larger than the homes elsewhere. They could not be easily sub-divided. Detroit also had a wealth of large homes in general when compared to Toledo, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, or Cincinnati. Detroit couldn't contract when it needed smaller starter homes.

The freeways were what we know, but the rail line industrial corridors cut up Detroit in the previous period just the same. Similarly, waterways and canals pock marked the river shore, of which we are only just now recovering from. The industrial lines from the railways were freeway 1.0. They cut up the original Detroit.

Detroit's should not forget their history. This has happened more than you realize.

We are all the bio equivalent of but a software program. Your choices have already been made because we operate on deep inconceivable realities outside of our own perceptions. The late Gannon the Wise was a man of genius beyond his years. We would be wise to spend every free moment reading and

History is rhyming! thinking as the people did who started this latest Detroit renaissance.

It is all just programs. Ones. Zeros.

[night-timer]

I'm no academic or professor.

Or sociologist or social worker.

So, keep that in mind, but...

Root cause = too dependent on auto manufacturing? Then union problems, out-sourcing jobs, the end of the industrial age...

If racism was the key factor, why were many blacks enjoying employment on the auto factory floor during Detroit's boom times? They moved to Detroit in droves for jobs and employment opportunities, didn't they?

[Wesley Mouch]

Wealth. Grandeur.
..snip..

Yes. I think the root cause of Detroit's problems was Detroit's overnight success as the center of automobiles -- and was confirmed in our civic mind when we were anointed the Arsenal of Democracy.*

Success can breed laziness and hubris. We were indeed great. But we weren't wise. We let racism fester. We thought we were invincible.

Then comes deindustrialization and the oil shock, and we were finished.

The root cause is that we never matured. We were young and fearless, wealthy with delusions of grandeur.

*wikipedia describes AofD as a broader term, covering much of what's now the rust belt. You have to look in the references to see #7

Herman, Arthur. "The Arsenal of Democracy: How Detroit turned industrial might into military power during World War II." The Detroit News. 3 Jan 2013. "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 2013-08-28. Retrieved 2013-08-18.

[hybridy]

Wealth. Grandeur.

The cheap homes in Detroit were larger than the homes elsewhere. They could not be easily sub-divided. Detroit also had a wealth of large homes in general when compared to Toledo, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, or Cincinnati. Detroit couldn't contract when it needed smaller starter homes..

What does one consider large? I dare say the bulk of Detroit homes and many inner ring suburbs are 800-1200 SF bungalows. I consider this small for a family of 4-5. Detroit has a bevy of single family homes, while Milwaukee, for example, the predominant housing type is the duplex aka polish flat. It was expanded as incomes allowed and then as families outgrew it, the duplex became a revenue source while the family moved on.

http://uwm.edu/mkepolonia/polish-flats/

[bust]

Yes. I think the root cause of Detroit's problems was Detroit's overnight success as the center of automobiles -- and was confirmed in our civic mind when we were anointed the Arsenal of Democracy.*

Success can breed laziness and hubris. We were indeed great. But we weren't wise. We let racism fester. We thought we were invincible.

Then comes deindustrialization and the oil shock, and we were finished.

The root cause is that we never matured. We were young and fearless, wealthy with delusions of grandeur.

*wikipedia describes AofD as a broader term, covering much of what's now the rust belt. You have to look in the references to see #7

Good post Wesley.

I'll add we also believe we deserve all the great fortune that came our way. The booming local economy we enjoyed for decades. The good jobs we could have without a good education. The quickly rising wages. Often without having to work very hard by other standards.

We don't realize how lucky we are to have had no student loan debt. To have a pension. To have been able to retire young. For our retirement plan to have benefited from a stock market that has skyrocketed 1300% the past 30 years.

Except of course the pronoun to use isn't "we". Great fortune in Detroit was a hallmark of previous generations. Especially one and two generations before mine. And not everyone those generations enjoyed an equal share.

Detroit's population soared in response to its wealth of opportunities. And the influx of labor and talent helped perpetuate the booming economy.

But many who arrived late saw less benefit. Many faced discrimination when they sought housing and employment. It often was intense. Many were unable to find apprenticeships and were relegated to unskilled and unstable jobs.

And many of the fortunates from previous generations don't understand how circumstances have changed. How much harder things have become. Many have little interest in the complexities of contemporary life. Many have lost touch.

They have overwhelmingly left Detroit for the suburbs, the exurbs, or a warmer climate. Or their parents did. Many are scared to return to their old neighborhoods. And they are almost universally bitter about the Detroit that was lost.

Few, unlike those whose insights we enjoy on this forum, actively seek good information. Their perspective is shaped by the TV and radio they passively absorb. The chatter at the coffee klatch. The more technologically adept ones: what their friends forward and share online.

Even fewer take any responsibility for any part of Detroit's decline.

Many think the poor are in their circumstances because of bad decisions or they haven't tried hard enough. And if younger generations are not as well off as they are, it's likewise their fault. They overlook how many circumstances they benefited from that others have not, and feel no moral imperative to help anyone else. Even when it comes to taxes.

Of course not everyone who benefited from the great fortune of bygone Detroit is so afflicted. Certainly not many who contribute here. And there are shades and other complexities, as with everything else. There is no easy explanation.

But in general:

One root cause of Detroit's problems is that so many who were incredibly lucky to have benefited from Detroit's boom years relocated elsewhere. And with that their talent, their business, and all the other contributions to society they share. Meanwhile so many blame Detroit's problems on those who were less fortunate and/or who have remained. That's been going on for generations.

Economies feed themselves in growth, and eat themselves in decline.

Detroit has suffered a multitude of decisions to leave it behind.

And as Detroit declined, through to this day, it has struggled to offer the opportunities to nurture and attract the talent that during its boom years were so much a part of its strength.

That's recently been changing. Hopefully the improvements will continue and spread. But opportunities in Detroit remain limited. Detroit needs more opportunities, and many more contributions from more people energized to pursue them, before it will be fully on its feet again.

Disclaimer: This was written from the perspective of someone whose parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents benefited from Detroit's boom years and left for the suburbs. And someone who has long since gone much further astray. But a large part of my heart [[and family) remains in the Detroit area. I've been looking for the right opportunity to return and haven't found it yet.