The Guy Rick Snyder picked to collect taxes in Detroit doesn't pay them!

m b v · March-17-13, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I discussed this "Lien" thing with a friend @ dinner, since I know nothing about it, and he told me this story. Friends of his live next door to a property owner who refused to keep a section of his land mowed. This in turn drew weeds & seeds onto their property, dumping, animals, etc. They took it upon themselves to keep his property mowed, but ended up putting a lien for services rendered on his property. Since he wasn't notified of the lien, he has no idea, and won't until he goes to sell his property. I'm still not sure exactly how liens and notifications work, but unless you can prove that Orr willfully, and with knowledge, refused to pay his taxes, I'm willing to give him a benefit of a doubt. Maybe some of the more legally knowledgeable members can chime in.

You are notified of liens. And this wasn't one year, it was over four years—two of which he had paid, so don’t tell me he wasn’t ever aware of this issue. And just because someone is a highly paid corporate lawyer doesn't mean they are cash rich. Those 6 and even 7 figure salaries get blown on million dollar homes, cars, a boat, education, childcare, and various other 1% lifestyle decisions. Make more, spend more.

**313WX** · March-17-13, 01:11 PM

It's a well known scheme that people hold off on paying their tax bills until the IRS is knocking on their door.

The theory behind it is instead of sending the money to the government immediately, they can use it to double their profit through private investment during that time span.

The "I had no idea" line is typical lawyer jargon.

Whether or not you agree that's cheating on your taxes is all semantics.

**fanniemae** · March-17-13, 01:14 PM

Some of these guys like Orr have a financial manager, CPA to handle the day to day routine stuff like their own personal business. Maybe it is his wife. Maybe he did know. He has paid the debt. Successful people don't sweat the small stuff. I am not a person that would take a 16 grand lien lightly if it involved me. When someone like Orr is dealing in large amounts of money, 16 grand is small change. I think the citizens in this area need to put a proper perspective on the tax lien situation.

**Detroitnerd** · March-17-13, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by RapBrown

Yep, just what I expected from the "I'll back Snyder at any cost as long as he goes after those animals in Detroit" group. The fact of the matter is this isn't on Orr as much as it's on Snyder. The vetting process never existed. You can try to pretend that it was a 4 yr oversight or however you want to rationalize it, but they weren't trotting this guy out on every media in the state and country not to sell him. This is a disaster for Snyder, and he knows it. Now I'm interested to see if the lap dog journalists in this town go after Snyder for being so sloppy and arrogant. Either way it looks bad!

Nine posts in and I already like this Rap Brown guy.

**Detwa** · March-17-13, 03:40 PM

This is a non-issue. Wake me up when his credit score is under 700. Then you'll have a story.

**RapBrown** · March-17-13, 04:27 PM

Thanks DetroitNerd much appreciated

**fanniemae** · March-17-13, 06:27 PM

Not everyone in the money biz or law firms are boy scouts. Many are not. I highly doubt a qualified absolutely perfect human being with no baggage is going to be available as an EFM to get the ball rolling here. Orr has liens, he pays them. A few years late. He plays the game as most in the money business . Are the liens a nice item on a resume? Of course not. Years ago, a relative of mine owned a business chain, he had liens on his property for whatever reason. It is part of business sometimes. Get over it, move on. Let Orr get started. If he does not work, at least we tried something. Because what we have now is a mess that can no longer go on. Bing and the Clowncil can not agree on anything.

**jerrytimes** · March-17-13, 07:31 PM

Wow... So say this guy isn't lying, and he wasn't aware of the taxes. [[From what I have read they have already been paid in full) Then what? I was notified in Jan 2012 that I owed almost $3000 in taxes from 2009 due to an error in my tax return [[that I didn't prepare) and that they removed school credit deductions. Now I fought this because while I did owe them some money, it wasn't $3000. After figuring it out, it was only $400. Does that make me a tax cheat? Maybe this is his situation, maybe it isn't, but it's funny that people in Detroit let local people slide [[Kwame for years, Pugh, Waters ect...) but one thing on this guy and it's headline news. It's only because Snyder appointed him....

**313WX** · March-17-13, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by jerrytimes

Wow... So say this guy isn't lying, and he wasn't aware of the taxes. [[From what I have read they have already been paid in full) Then what? I was notified in Jan 2012 that I owed almost $3000 in taxes from 2009 due to an error in my tax return [[that I didn't prepare) and that they removed school credit deductions. Now I fought this because while I did owe them some money, it wasn't $3000. After figuring it out, it was only $400. Does that make me a tax cheat? Maybe this is his situation, maybe it isn't, but it's funny that people in Detroit let local people slide [[Kwame for years, Pugh, Waters ect...) but one thing on this guy and it's headline news. It's only because Snyder appointed him....

Kwame, Watson and Pugh are terrible as well in the same context.

**downtownguy** · March-17-13, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by fanniemae

Some of these guys like Orr have a financial manager, CPA to handle the day to day routine stuff like their own personal business. Maybe it is his wife. Maybe he did know. He has paid the debt. Successful people don't sweat the small stuff. I am not a person that would take a 16 grand lien lightly if it involved me. When someone like Orr is dealing in large amounts of money, 16 grand is small change. I think the citizens in this area need to put a proper perspective on the tax lien situation.

After just locking up a former mayor for financial malfeasance I'm surprised so many people here are willing to give Orr the benefit of the doubt without considering his responses to the allegations. First, he acknowledged that he does have an outside accountant do his taxes, and it's not his wife:

The Washington, D.C., bankruptcy attorney blamed the problems on an outside accountant hired to file his tax returns, said Sara Wurfel, a Snyder spokeswoman.

OK, so how's that outside accountant doing for ya?

A lien for $7,022 in unemployment taxes for the 2008 tax year was entered on July 17, 2009, and satisfied on Aug. 20, 2010. Another for $9,409 in income taxes for the 2008 tax year against Orr and his wife, Dr. Donna Neale, was entered on Aug. 11, 2010, and satisfied on Oct. 3, 2011.

If it happened twice [[for unemployment taxes and for income taxes), a) did you think about retaining another accountant? or, b) are you complicit in putting off paying these taxes until the state of Maryland tracks you down? If he's just playing that game, as some have pointed out that many people do, fine, just admit it! But he claims that the most recent unpaid taxes and subsequent liens are "surprising to me, to be honest."

To think that he didn't know about the past delinquencies is laughable. Either he hands over his checkbook to this accountant with no oversight so that he could eventually pay up on his prior overdue taxes, or he has a poor memory of writing those checks in the amount of $7,022 in 2010 and $9,409 in 2011.

Forgive my cynicism, but IMHO even a person of reasonable wealth would likely remember writing checks in that amount for overdue taxes.

This isn't an oversight, it's a pattern, and while it's nice he paid up so quickly after it came out in the paper, the fact that he passes it off like a one time brain fart makes me question his integrity.

**downtownguy** · March-17-13, 08:15 PM

One more thing, aren't liens on property a matter of public record? If indeed Snyder & Co. did vet this guy, how could they have overlooked the liens?

**313WX** · March-17-13, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

One more thing, aren't liens on property a matter of public record? If indeed Snyder & Co. did vet this guy, how could they have overlooked the liens?

There were no other candidates willing to touch Detroit with a 6-foot pole that met his requirements for the job [[must be African American).

**Cincinnati_Kid** · March-17-13, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Detwa

This is a non-issue. Wake me up when his credit score is under 700. Then you'll have a story.

Thank you........

**Cincinnati_Kid** · March-17-13, 08:33 PM

I just wonder if it were someone like Alan Mullaly, would the reactions be the same? Would you ask him to step down from FoMoCo ?

**Novine** · March-17-13, 09:03 PM

Why should Orr get a pass? He's being embraced by the same crowd that backed Kwame the first time he ran for Mayor and again for his second term even after it was clear that he was damaged goods. This same crowd pushed Bing for Mayor telling us that a businessman would fix the city even as some of us predicted that Bing would be a failure. Based on that track record, I don't see any reason to take the recommendations of the movers and shakers without a heavy dose of skepticism.

**fanniemae** · March-17-13, 09:30 PM

See where we are in 6 months . IMO, if Orr does fall on his face, Snyder will make a move. I think Snyder wants another term. Does not want a failure in the D with the EFM. Do you still want the status quo? My gosh, the turkeys in Detroit could not run a high school bookstore, let alone a city. Anything is an improvement. I would almost accept Dennis Rodman as an EFM due to his new found foreign policy expertise. Okay, now I am really kidding.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-17-13, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Why should Orr get a pass? He's being embraced by the same crowd that backed Kwame the first time he ran for Mayor and again for his second term even after it was clear that he was damaged goods. This same crowd pushed Bing for Mayor telling us that a businessman would fix the city even as some of us predicted that Bing would be a failure. Based on that track record, I don't see any reason to take the recommendations of the movers and shakers without a heavy dose of skepticism.

OK, Novine -- so you're against everything. What are you for? Do we just keep going like we were? Give us your practical advice, please. Tearing everything down doesn't help the dialog.

**RapBrown** · March-18-13, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

OK, Novine -- so you're against everything. What are you for? Do we just keep going like we were? Give us your practical advice, please. Tearing everything down doesn't help the dialog.

Yea, Novine how can you be against this fascism and eventual bankruptcy that's being foisted upon us, next thing you'll want is Democracy and the right of representation for Detroit and it's people?

**Honky Tonk** · March-18-13, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by RapBrown

Yea, Novine how can you be against this fascism and eventual bankruptcy that's being foisted upon us, next thing you'll want is Democracy and the right of representation for Detroit and it's people?

Are you talking about the bankruptcy that was "foisted" upon the people of Detroit by the last 50 years of incompetent Detroit government? Please feel free to present your plan for leading us out of this mess. Or @ least point to what steps were being taken, let's say in the last year, to avert the current situation, by the City leaders?

**coracle** · March-18-13, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by fanniemae

Some of these guys like Orr have a financial manager, CPA to handle the day to day routine stuff like their own personal business. Maybe it is his wife. Maybe he did know. He has paid the debt. Successful people don't sweat the small stuff. I am not a person that would take a 16 grand lien lightly if it involved me. When someone like Orr is dealing in large amounts of money, 16 grand is small change. I think the citizens in this area need to put a proper perspective on the tax lien situation.

This guy is THE Financial Manager extraordinaire who is going to win the Olympics [[in his words) of Detroit's recovery and you think he didn't know what his own financial manager was doing for him! To a salaried person that loses half his salaryto Fed/State taxes, FICA, Medicare and other stoppages $16k per year is not small stuff not to be sweated - its the gravy. How do you think successful people become successful?
If he truly didn't know about it then he's not the man for the job.

**jackie5275** · March-18-13, 10:11 AM

As a former IRS revenue agent [[the folks who do tax audits), the business taxes he skipped out on are not montrously complex. From everything I read about this, he neglected to file & pay the employer unemployment taxes for staff he hired. These weren't done for 4 years running. When you have a paid tax preparer as the article states, you still have the responsibility yourself to review your return before signing & filing it. I'd think that the attorney in him would know better to sign something without reading it. Apparently, he proved me wrong. Maybe the financial genius should be preparing his own return.

I question how he claims to not know of any liens. The IRS sends all their notices to THE TAXPAYER DIRECTLY, NOT THEIR PAID PREPARER. They will send scads of notices too. If it's a joint return notices get sent to each spouse separately. The placing of a lien on your property comes at the end of the collection process, so he would've gotten a whole bunch of certified mail about it before it happened. IMO there's no way he didn't know about it.

Failure to file & failure to pay taxes are violations of the Internal Revenue Code and are misdemeanors. Therefore, IT IS A CRIME. Does the IRS prosecute? It depends on the case, but generally no if you work with them to resolve outstanding issues. However, if you don't, it can be elevated to a felony. They really don't want to jail you, just get the tax money.

For those on this board who are saying Orr should get "pass due to an oversight", I have to disagree with you. This isn't a matter that's very complex or an isolated incident that fell through the cracks, especially with it happening 4 years in a row.

**fanniemae** · March-18-13, 10:36 AM

Jackie, to an attorney, one with financial experience, Orr could see this as a manageable game played with the IRS. Not knowing the extent of Orr's personal holdings and wealth, plus I am not a tax expert, I can understand where citizens would have a problem understanding the liens. You as a former IRS employee know how these things work. Is there some advantage to waiting to pay on a lien? Was there some legislation pending to alter the taxation process of the nanny system? Again, I don't know of a perfect person that was available for the EFM here. Maybe this is the best available at this time. Orr does have some good education and resume. Guys like Orr are players, this is the way they do things it looks like. Most guys in the money biz are players. Still an improvement over what we have at face value. Now I am expecting someone to throw my words of "face value" at me.

**Honky Tonk** · March-18-13, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

As a former IRS revenue agent [[the folks who do tax audits), the business taxes he skipped out on are not montrously complex. From everything I read about this, he neglected to file & pay the employer unemployment taxes for staff he hired. These weren't done for 4 years running. When you have a paid tax preparer as the article states, you still have the responsibility yourself to review your return before signing & filing it. I'd think that the attorney in him would know better to sign something without reading it. Apparently, he proved me wrong. Maybe the financial genius should be preparing his own return.

I question how he claims to not know of any liens. The IRS sends all their notices to THE TAXPAYER DIRECTLY, NOT THEIR PAID PREPARER. They will send scads of notices too. If it's a joint return notices get sent to each spouse separately. The placing of a lien on your property comes at the end of the collection process, so he would've gotten a whole bunch of certified mail about it before it happened. IMO there's no way he didn't know about it.

Failure to file & failure to pay taxes are violations of the Internal Revenue Code and are misdemeanors. Therefore, IT IS A CRIME. Does the IRS prosecute? It depends on the case, but generally no if you work with them to resolve outstanding issues. However, if you don't, it can be elevated to a felony. They really don't want to jail you, just get the tax money.

For those on this board who are saying Orr should get "pass due to an oversight", I have to disagree with you. This isn't a matter that's very complex or an isolated incident that fell through the cracks, especially with it happening 4 years in a row.

Jackie, Thanx for your insight as an experienced ISR agent. It certainly doesn't put things in a positive light for both Mr. Orr, or Mr. Snyder. THAT being said, I have no intention of making any long term plans for living in the COD, or MI, because I just don't see any solution in site with the managerial incompetency, or fiscal irresponsibility.

**Eber Brock Ward** · March-18-13, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

As a former IRS revenue agent [[the folks who do tax audits), the business taxes he skipped out on are not montrously complex. From everything I read about this, he neglected to file & pay the employer unemployment taxes for staff he hired. These weren't done for 4 years running. When you have a paid tax preparer as the article states, you still have the responsibility yourself to review your return before signing & filing it. I'd think that the attorney in him would know better to sign something without reading it. Apparently, he proved me wrong. Maybe the financial genius should be preparing his own return.

I question how he claims to not know of any liens. The IRS sends all their notices to THE TAXPAYER DIRECTLY, NOT THEIR PAID PREPARER. They will send scads of notices too. If it's a joint return notices get sent to each spouse separately. The placing of a lien on your property comes at the end of the collection process, so he would've gotten a whole bunch of certified mail about it before it happened. IMO there's no way he didn't know about it.

Failure to file & failure to pay taxes are violations of the Internal Revenue Code and are misdemeanors. Therefore, IT IS A CRIME. Does the IRS prosecute? It depends on the case, but generally no if you work with them to resolve outstanding issues. However, if you don't, it can be elevated to a felony. They really don't want to jail you, just get the tax money.

For those on this board who are saying Orr should get "pass due to an oversight", I have to disagree with you. This isn't a matter that's very complex or an isolated incident that fell through the cracks, especially with it happening 4 years in a row.

jackie,

he worked for a firm with about ~2500 attorneys -- made up of probably about 1000 partners and 1500 associates -- and probably a good 2000+ support staff, guessing by what i see on their nalp forms.

would i be incorrect in assuming that the lien was for his pro rata share, as a partner, for the ~3,500 employees that were employed by the ~1,000 partners, firm-wide?

if so, and from what i know from discussing this stuff with partners at my old firm [[also a large firm), this falls squarely on the accounting and payroll departments at jones day. typically these departments "take care of" everything for each member of the partnership, serve as the paid preparer, and often, by agreement of each partner, the return address for each of their returns "c/o" the firm's accounting/payroll department.

essentially, it's an in-house perk the same way that your firm's trusts and estates department will help you put your will together, or your real estate department will help negotiate the sale or purchase of your property, gratis. provided this is the case, as is usual at most big firms, i wouldn't be surprised if some doofus [[or a few doofuses) in the accounting department is making the case for his or her job right now.

and given how large and unwieldy jones day is as a firm bureaucracy, i would not be surprised, and actually almost expect, that [[1) he didn't know of it and [[2) paid it as soon as it came to his attention [[and [[3) someone or many someones is getting an absolute asschewing in accounting/payroll).

**fanniemae** · March-18-13, 11:32 AM

What Eber is saying here seems like a possible explanation. Guys like Orr, Snyder, nerds and lawyers of finance play the game at high stakes. A lot higher than me or most citizens of the area, the average "Joe". The residents of Michigan have been kicked around , abused by many elected officials for a long time. Many just don't trust anyone and are "shell shocked". My feelings are that we have to move forward, start to straighten out fiscally our money woes and work with what we now have. The clowncil needed a watchdog and a process to stop them , clowncil is simply incompetent. Bing has given up, saw the writing on the wall. Bing could not accomplish anything with the clowncil.