Proposal:In his first official act, the EMF makes the City Council position part-time

[iheartthed]

Who is denying that cities lost population? The point is, most of those cities didn't become insolvent.

Cleveland and New York were insolvent decades before Detroit.

[Novine]

"What's funny is a lot of Detroit's outer neighborhoods were built at the same time inner ring suburbs were built so it's not like Detroit was totally devoid of subsidies to expand, not to mention all the urban renewal subsidies Detroit was getting."

Most people would question whether urban renewal subsidies helped or hurt the city. See the recent discussion about the destruction of most of Corktown. Detroit may have subsidized development at the far edges of the city. But the differences is that the benefits that came from subsidizing growth accrued to the city. When the subsidies went to the suburbs, the suburbs kept the benefits of the growth and shared none of it with the city.

"Who is denying that cities lost population? The point is, most of those cities didn't become insolvent."

New York City almost went bankrupt in the 1970s. As was noted earlier, Detroit's the worst case scenario but it's not the first city to face bankruptcy nor the only one to have been badly damaged by the exodus to the suburbs.

[Shollin]

New York was able to fix itself instead of whining about people moving to Long Island

[bailey]

New York was able to fix itself instead of whining about people moving to Long Island

"fix itself" = 2.3 billion [[in 1975 dollars..someone do the math on what that is today) in federal loans.

[Det_ard]

"fix itself" = 2.3 billion [[in 1975 dollars..someone do the math on what that is today) in federal loans.

Loans. Which were repaid in full, with interest. Is there some scenario wherein Detroit is capable of paying back multi-billion dollar loans, on top of the debt and long-term pension and medical liabilities they already have? I don't think so.

[Shollin]

"What's funny is a lot of Detroit's outer neighborhoods were built at the same time inner ring suburbs were built so it's not like Detroit was totally devoid of subsidies to expand, not to mention all the urban renewal subsidies Detroit was getting."

Most people would question whether urban renewal subsidies helped or hurt the city. See the recent discussion about the destruction of most of Corktown. Detroit may have subsidized development at the far edges of the city. But the differences is that the benefits that came from subsidizing growth accrued to the city. When the subsidies went to the suburbs, the suburbs kept the benefits of the growth and shared none of it with the city.

"Who is denying that cities lost population? The point is, most of those cities didn't become insolvent."

New York City almost went bankrupt in the 1970s. As was noted earlier, Detroit's the worst case scenario but it's not the first city to face bankruptcy nor the only one to have been badly damaged by the exodus to the suburbs.

Again, where were people suppose to live in Detroit? This was the height of the baby boom era and the population was rapidly increasing. The infrastructure was built after the population moved to the suburbs. I remember going out to Macomb Community College and 12 mile was a 2 lane road and almost all the side streets were dirt roads. The roads didn't get paved until after people moved in and paid special assesments to pave the roads. I also know in some areas of Sterling Heights, the homes had wells and the residents had to pay to hook up to city water. I remember looking at a house in Warren around 11 and Ryan and it still had a well in it. Don't pass this off as Detroit completely paid for the expansion of the suburbs.

[Wesley Mouch]

Hell, it's STILL trying to figure out the game.....

Unless the game was to squander wealth within the city limits -- then they have it figured out and have broken the bank.

[bailey]

Loans. Which were repaid in full, with interest. Is there some scenario wherein Detroit is capable of paying back multi-billion dollar loans, on top of the debt and long-term pension and medical liabilities they already have? I don't think so.

I don't know. Just pointing out the fact NYC didn't "fix itself". It had a rich uncle who floated a loan.

[313WX]

Again, where were people suppose to live in Detroit? This was the height of the baby boom era and the population was rapidly increasing. The infrastructure was built after the population moved to the suburbs. I remember going out to Macomb Community College and 12 mile was a 2 lane road and almost all the side streets were dirt roads. The roads didn't get paved until after people moved in and paid special assesments to pave the roads. I also know in some areas of Sterling Heights, the homes had wells and the residents had to pay to hook up to city water. I remember looking at a house in Warren around 11 and Ryan and it still had a well in it. Don't pass this off as Detroit completely paid for the expansion of the suburbs.

They could havd build upward instead of outward.

You're just making all sorts of excuses for SE Michigan's poor planning.

[Shollin]

They could havd build upward instead of outward.

You're just making all sorts of excuses for SE Michigan's poor planning.

SE Michigan isn't much different than most other major cities. Talk about excuse making, throwing the blame on the suburbs for Detroit's decline. Why didn't Detroit build upward then to keep the population in Detroit? How do you build a vertical factory? The New York metro area is 19 million people and spans 3 states. Look at Chicago. Chicago has lost a million people and the region spans into Indiana and almost to Wisconsin.

[Wesley Mouch]

Loans. Which were repaid in full, with interest. Is there some scenario wherein Detroit is capable of paying back multi-billion dollar loans, on top of the debt and long-term pension and medical liabilities they already have? I don't think so.

Loans: There should be plenty of loans/capital available to a city that acts like an adult. If council spends all their time fighting this and successfully stirs up resentment, then maybe not. But let's hope they turn into adults and start working on solutions, not politics

Payback scenario: I haven't heard anyone responsible say that this is insurmountable. If we stop acting like the City is a gravy-train of jobs and a government more interested in hollow words like 'empowerment' and instead starts being friendly to all, I think we'll see that this can be done.

Sure, some people who have disproportionately benefited will need to have their benefits adjusted to a fair level. But there's no reason why Detroit can't pay the required pension benefits, and a reasonable level of health benefits to retirees. Again, should we all accept that we live in Michigan, not some other planet, then we can expect that all of Michigan will help Michigan's jewel.

[Mark Smiles]

You're quite right. It was foolish of them to be born poor, and for the city to have given away most of its jobs to the suburbs, and to have carelessly chosen to be a city in the first place during a 60-year stretch when subsidies flowed away from cities to suburbs. Those choices were all so short-sighted. It's a good thing life is a two-way street, though, because now the suburbs have been saddled with jobs, subsidies and residents of means. I know it's unfair to load all that on the suburbs, but, hey, somebody has to bear the brunt of all that.

Just because someone is born poor it does not follow that they have to be racist towards the Suburbs.

The jobs do not belong to a city or any city for that mater. Jobs only exist when someone wants to purchase the services of another.

The last time I went to the Detroit fireworks, a year before the shootings in the early '80's I saw something that had me convinced Detroit was going nowhere. There was a row of portas-johns with African-American girls sitting on top of them, and what struck me was the racist remarks they were making at people walking by and going in the johns. It occurred to me that these girls would be raising the future generations.

So yeah, I don't buy any "victim" foolishness, or blaming the "victim" because I don't see any victims, I see a culture being proudly passed on.

Want to change Detroit? Change the culture.

Your blaming the suburbs, claiming victimhood, is silly.

Your claiming victimhood, by claiming “disenfranchisement” is doubly silly.

A State Supreme Court judge, “democratically elected” was removed from office. Where the voters of Michigan “disenfranchised” as you claim? No. Educated voters know that those they elect may be removed from office if circumstances warrant it, and this is known from the stare, before anyone is elected, it is basic civics. To claim “disenfranchisement” to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of basic civics.

[Wesley Mouch]

Just because someone is born poor it does not follow that they have to be racist towards the Suburbs.

The jobs do not belong to a city or any city for that mater. Jobs only exist when someone wants to purchase the services of another.

The last time I went to the Detroit fireworks, a year before the shootings in the early '80's I saw something that had me convinced Detroit was going nowhere. There was a row of portas-johns with African-American girls sitting on top of them, and what struck me was the racist remarks they were making at people walking by and going in the johns. It occurred to me that these girls would be raising the future generations.

So yeah, I don't buy any "victim" foolishness, or blaming the "victim" because I don't see any victims, I see a culture being proudly passed on.

Want to change Detroit? Change the culture.

Your blaming the suburbs, claiming victimhood, is silly.

Your claiming victimhood, by claiming “disenfranchisement” is doubly silly.

A State Supreme Court judge, “democratically elected” was removed from office. Where the voters of Michigan “disenfranchised” as you claim? No. Educated voters know that those they elect may be removed from office if circumstances warrant it, and this is known from the stare, before anyone is elected, it is basic civics. To claim “disenfranchisement” to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of basic civics.

Thanks, Smiley. This 'disenfranchisement' argument is solely a political game being played by those who have been using their power to abuse Detroit to their gain. Its really sad that others are buying into this idea. It makes no sense.

'Blame the 'burbs? Well, their not blameless, but this ranks right up with blaming Wall Street for Detroit's problems. Silly. Sad.

[Detroitnerd]

Just because someone is born poor it does not follow that they have to be racist towards the Suburbs.

How is one "racist" to "suburbs"? I think you're imposing the prism of race on this because you're uncomfortable with the prism of class, which is really much closer to where this discussion is at.

You have some anecdotal stories of racism. Does that justify what is supposed to be fair and just policy? For all people, regardless of race or income?

As for "claiming victimhood" and "blame" -- these are phrases right-wing people use to make themselves feel justified in ignoring real social problems that will one day bite them in the ass.

Go ahead and feel smug. For now. Who knows what this country will look like in 100 years. I have a feeling it won't be a very pretty place, and that we can thank worldviews such as yours for making it so.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't know. Just pointing out the fact NYC didn't "fix itself". It had a rich uncle who floated a loan.

That's not really how this works. If you are spending $600 Million more every year than you are taking in, a $3 Billion "gift" from your rich uncle will last you 5 years, then you're SOL. A $3 Billion "loan" from your rich uncle will last you 5 years, then you're REALLY SOL because you're still spending $600MM more every year than you take in....and you STILL have to pay back the loan.

No. The only way the $3B loan from your rich uncle works is if you use it to address the economic reasons why you are spending $600MM more every year than you are bringing in.

And, as Det_ard pointed out, there is no current scenario where in Detroit is capable of ever paying that back unless....

...Orr is successful at doing what no Mayor and no City Council has yet been able to do -- make a plan, and sell your rich uncle on how you will execute it to get rid of the $600MM annual deficit and payback the loan.

Why did Orr need to do that? Why aren't we give the Mayor and the CC a chance to do it? We did, and it didn't work.

To this day, I still believe that if the Mayor and CC accepted the Consent Agreement and spent all of their energy executing it rather than protesting it and fighting it, I think it could've worked. But, then unicorns would also be able ride on rainbows.

[Richard]

To me anyways the city existed solely to supply a work force to the automotive industry,if you are going to compare cities one would have to look at other one horse town cities.

Unless there is a push for diversification it is going to be the same old story,a prime example would be the movie industry which was pretty much cut off at the knees,its kinda like starting a business ,you need to fund it and make it grow until it can walk on its own,but just like the whole mortgage mess we like to see results now we want it now.

How is the city now a 700 k as a population considered a shrinking city?

Should not the mindset be we now have a small city and need to figure out how to make it grow?

It would seem as if the city is adapting to the downsizing of the auto industry which has no problem leaving it in its wake,this whole thing of people dumped the city for the suburbs so it is their fault, is a bunch of crap, it was the city leaders responsibility to adapt the city and diversify years ago which they did not.

So now what do you have ? The same line of crap,we cannot adapt so we will address the shortfalls by cutting and shrinking to fit a budget that will never be inline,kill the budget instead of finding ways to grow it, after all it is easy quick and popular because it provides results now,appease now and worry about the future later.Sooner or later the future becomes the present.

Sound familiar? Its the banks fault,its the people that abandoned the city's fault. Kicking the can down the road ,well, it is still being done, millions are being spent to downsize instead of education and job training, cutting diversification opportunities off at the knees,get into power to bleed the people dry and in the end we can drain the retirement funds of those who came before us,well I guess they can always supplement with gov assistance.

So what happens when you are done cutting and still it is not enough?
Raise taxes? how high and who is going to pay?Do you encourage more to leave so there is less to pay for?

Does anybody really think somebody is going to come in and slash everything to the bone and it is going to be okay?In 18 month's?Seriously?Who is going to cut the attitude change?

All the tools are there for the city to become strong but either nobody knows how to use them or they are being encouraged not to use them or have been using them for their own agendas or personal gain with no regard as a city or its people as a whole.

No matter how you slash and burn unless that is changed which does not cost a dime to do it is repeating history.

The city charter and representatives by district is a game changer and needs to work toward building a city and not shrinking a city.

I would think that potential new CC candidates would be in a scary position as they are going into uncharted territory.the city leaders right now should be setting up with other cities that use that system with a mentor program to help educate potential candidates who in turn can educate the residents.

Even though it would be best for the cities future something tells me that is not going to happen,so it would be up to the potential candidates to take the initiative and mentor with somebody that knows the game and how to play it.

The question would be is the problem due to lack of funds or lack of proper fund management ? The city has full time problems which are not solved by part time solutions.

When you have a fellow poster coming on here to ask how to pay his or her taxes after contacting the city with no results that tells you there is no form of government in place within the city.Period.

Somebody in city gov chastised DPS for building schools not in areas what they considered not part of the shrinking city aspect but they are doing what the city is not,building now for the future,maybe they could take a lesson in that.